[Buck Wolter]

Maybe you have two options -- one where you pay something up front but if you don't you you pay a little more per month.

A downstroke is what kept me from joining a local club as I have been a relo risk for a while -- instead I joined a national club that I can go to no matter where I live and I play a Muni with my son where they charge me $10 for 9 holes and my son plays for free or a Keith Foster public for $70 on a weekend morning ( same price walk or ride, I usually walk). For the last 4years I drove past the course across the street that I woudl have loved to have joined but didn't because they wanted $5K to join -- now I've been relo'd and the decision was the right one. In the meantime they would have had a good member for 3-4 years (I always close the mustard -- and usually shake it first) and lost out on $15K in dues from me. I've heard its gotten cheaper this year!

The big problem is everybody who's paid a big initiation fee and doesn't understand a sunk cost hates the idea of someone getting a better deal.  Your house isn't worth what it was  and your club membership isn't either and the only thing that's going to change if you don't is your assessment. My National Club went the other way and made it very affordable to join and is doing very well through the worst economy in a generation -- people who joined when things were the toughest strike me as the best members to be around.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Since there seems to be almost universal agreement that you won't get 350 members paying $ 6,000 apiece, Is the ideal or realistic profile 100 members who pay $ 21,000 apiece, who can sponsor unaccompanied guests ?

[Mark Pearce]

What so many of you of the Walmart mentality do not understand is that membership in a club is a two way street.

Sharing is something I can do only with stuff that I own. Give me ownership of the golf course and I'll share it with my fellow owners. But if you see me as a customer and want to make a profit off me, you'd better provide value for money or else I'll leave. Or, in the case of initiation fees, never arrive in the first place. Initiation fees and for-profit schemes don't match.

Ulrich

Ulrich,

You did well to respond civily to Kavanaugh's gratuitous and ignorant insult.  Ironic that he chose to demonstrate his complete lack of understanding of European culture with a refence to a part of US life we know nothing of.

[Mark Pearce]

The discussion was about 1 guest or 3 guests. Clearly if there is a competition most clubs will restrict any guest, but competitions rarely run the whole weekend, so there will be weekend space. On a seperate point most UK golf clubs take weekend green fees.

But the discussion was about US clubs, where weekend competitions are far, far rarer than at UK clubs.  You were comparing apples with pears and misleadingly so.

[Chris Cupit]

Adrian,

wouldn't it work out better if you had more members? The German Golf Federation reckons that an 18 hole course can cater to up to 1400 members.

Ulrich

I dunno which is why I am asking.  And by the way, thank you for all your responses as I have really enjoyed reading them.

I do think $500, even all inclusive, is still expensive.  To justify that I thought membership numbers would have to be small to keep play down, conditions pristine (20,000 rounds instead of 34,000) and access to tee times a no brainer.

My model for years has been a low initiation fee, low dues (usually 30-50% lower than my competitors) and an ala carte approach where you pay for what you use after that.  I've also never had an assessment of any kind (38 years) and have a really good course in a great location.   No minimums, walking anytime, dues breaks for those under 40 and those over 55....

I have an older clubhouse that is known for good food and for being fun.  We are an active club.  But, it is an older facility and not as "fancy" as the other surrounding clubs (that went bankrupt) and I have just two tennis courts and a very small pool.  I have seen many join the "lifestyle" clubs that offer everyhting under the sun and I don't see how that model is successful.  In Atlanta, almost every subdivision has a pool and tennis courts that each homeowner pays for through HOA dues.  ALTA (Atlanta Lawn and Tennis Association) has over 100,00 members and dominates tennis courts in neighborhoods everywhere.

If I lived in a subdivision and was already paying for a pool and courts, why do I need those things in a golf membership?  If I had kids I'd sure as hell take then to the closest pool and I would play tennis with my friends and neighbors.  Why join a full service club if you already have swim and tennis?  Why pay for that amenity twice? 

I have succeeded because a lot of people agree and they can get their golf and social fix with me for way less.  My bread and butter is my golf and the social activities.  Last night we had trivia night and had 150 people for dinner.  I have 130 reservations for Brunch this Sunday and tonight's Valentines Gourmet Night is sold out.  We just unveiled a partnership with a gym located 100 yards from my eighth tee that allows my membership to join for an extra $15 a month and this appeals to another segment fo my membership.

I mention this as I agree with the industry (Ugh--I hate agreeing with the industry) that to retain members you must find multiple ways to engage them and keep them active.

BUT, I was just wondering if an all-in inclusive golf membership would work.  To justify that price the number of members would have to be small to ensure a very accesible course.  Let's face it, priate clubs members are paying in part for an "empty golf course".  No one would pay that if they had to fight for tee times. 

My current structure has 475 full members and 125 senior members.  The seniors can only play Mon-Fri. so on weekends we have just 475 members "competing for weekend times".  We accept tee times up to a week in advance and unlike many clubs that "pack 'em in" we have never had to use a lottery system for tee times.  I know many are shocked that a private club would have to do that but an example is the Atlanta Athletic Club with 36 holes and over 2,000 members--you sign up for a weekend lottery.  I am an active club and of course, you don't always tee off exactly when you want to but my caps are there to keep the course from having too much demand put on it.

If I cut my membership form 600 to 350-400 i would have enough players to have a game without so many that we'd need tee times except in rare cases I think.  Again, it was just a thought not so much for my existing club, but just in general.

In my market, 1400 members at one eighteen hole course would be a nightmare--you would never get a tee time.  Each course has different utilization capabilities but I can't imagine those kind of numbers.   

Thanks again for all the feedback.

As a reminder, I was speaking to a very specific market in the US and undertand that some of what I have been describing may be lunancy in the rest of the world or even in other parts of the country.

   

[Ulrich Mayring]

Well, the 700 members / 9 holes equation is from the German Golf Federation, but I haven't seen it in reality either. But I do have experiences with 1000 - 1500 member on 27 holes. The extra 9 holes do wonders and they do not cost a lot more to maintain, if you already have 18. My home course has 18 + 9 and, quite clever, the 9 holes are right in front of the clubhouse, whereas the 18 holes are bit further away and have no returning nines. Many members, especially older ones, don't bother to go out on the 18 holer. Another feature of my home course is that I can also play on a number of other courses that belong to the same group. So if I don't get a tee time on my home course, I have other options.

So, with a few tricks it is possible to have more than 1000 satisfied members. But, as a German saying goes, you have to look beyond the edge of your plate sometimes

The swankiest course in my area has 18K initiation (€ not $) and 2.2K yearly dues. They have a cap on 550 members and allow outside play. But that is an exception. In today's world, where you cannot count on working the same job in the same city for your entire life, initiation fees are definitely on the decline.

Ulrich

[Patrick_Mucci]

Chris,

It appears that you're successful, operating the way you are, so why seek to change it ?

Again, I don't know your market, but, it seems as though you've got the drill down pat.

I wouldn't change anything substantive, just fine tune it, keep your eye on what the competiton is doing and how they're doing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Chris Cupit]

Chris,

It appears that you're successful, operating the way you are, so why seek to change it ?

Again, I don't know your market, but, it seems as though you've got the drill down pat.

I wouldn't change anything substantive, just fine tune it, keep your eye on what the competiton is doing and how they're doing.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Thank you and we are doing ok.  I'm not thinking of changing anything really but i wonder if the traditional country club model should be scrapped in some instances with a more golf centric one. Just doing some market research. . Frankly, if that model was going to make it, I figure it would really need strong support from a group like this.  I know the emphasis is on engaging the whole family but the way family dynamics have changed and will change I just thought I'd throw the idea of golf only for a golf nut willing to pay a lot for an exceptional golf experience but not at the ultra high end price point. Instead of 50-75k and 650 per month before you walk in the door to a place chock full of facilities how about 2k to join and 500 a month all in for great uncrossed golf, a simple bit of food and drinks at unbeatable prices. 

Frankly, I don't know how so many others are making it.  I love what I do but I'm there every day and my mother is there 3-4 days a week.  I'm the gm, membership director, helper in the golf shop and when I can I love mowing fairways.  I'm also the trivia guy on Friday nights ( I'm the dork on the mike asking the questions, giving the answers and keeping score).  We done ok but it is by being involved every day with our membership. Again I love it, but it's tough to keep going without burning out and I dont see how you can pay for someone else to do these things and still make money!?  When my dad was alive he was the pro/superintendent for many lean years as well. 

Part of my ego driven dream which I'll admit to is this. I really love my course and I hate to see it "beat up". That selfish, prick side of me wants a course in increasingly better shape that is "pampered" !  Then I wake up and realize the economic realities and also realize that another side of me wants to show people that really good golf can be affordable (relatively speaking). 

Again, thanks and I appreciate all the thoughts.

[Carl Nichols]

Chris--
Would the numbers discussed above (roughly 2.1mm or so/yr) be enough to cover all costs, including keeping the course in great condition?

[Mac Plumart]

Chris...

I can understand why you might be/get burned out doing what you are doing.  I am amazed that virtually every time I go to The 'Mont for a round, you are there.  And what is even more amazing to me is that you are actively engaged in something work related and you have a big smile on your face.  My impression always has been that you love what you do.  I know I'm right on that one...and by the way that love shows...BIG TIME!  But nevertheless, I can see where you could get totally burned out.  It only makes sense.

I am not privy to the financials of the club, but speaking from a members perspective...the club is a smashing success.  Frankly, I can't believe how good it is...the vibe, the people (members and staff), the golf, everything.  I don't know precisely why the vibe of the club is so good and why the members are so friendly, but I suspect it has a lot to do with you and your mom.  

Also, the little things you do blows me away.  If there is going to be a frost delay, we get a nice email before tee times start.  There is no calling the club to find out details...no showing up to hear bad news...we already know.  Little things like this are MUCH appreciated.

One last thing...the first time I took my wife and kids to see the place, my wife asked..."Are there always this many cars here?  The place is packed."  I said, "Yeah, this is about normal."  But here is the kicker...I can always get a game with almost no wait.  The rounds are never slow.  Walking is embraced.  The club is busy, but getting a game is easy, and the members are friendly.  This fact stuns me everytime I go out there.  

Anyway, I'll shut up now.  But I just thought you'd like to hear what a member thinks of your club and all your hard work.  I couldn't be more happy.  In fact, I've got another GCA'er joining me tomorrow at The 'Mont for an early afternoon round.  

[Chris Cupit]

Carl,

If I had 2.1 and the fb operation I described and 300-350 members I could have a budget in the top 5% (900,000) dedicated to my course and do just fine.  It's shocking how much of one's dues go to non golf areas of a club that are "must haves"!

Mac,

Thanks

If the golf industry could clone you, we would have no issues at all!! 

PS. Don't worry too much. I know I've got the best membership anywhere and I won't screw your club up.

[Mac Plumart]

Chris...

In all seriousness, the thanks go to you. 

And I am not worried that you are going to mess with Rivermont, I am wondering what club you are going to take over and/or start-up with this idea. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

It's always humorous hearing about or watching members of a national club with no tee times enduring predictable  hour + waits with guests on holiday weekends because their club "doesn't have tee times"
150 type  A's with three guests can't all tee off at 8 am on a Saturday

3 guests on a weekend morning? I didn't realise that was allowed in the US, it's not at a lot of places in the UK.

1 guest per Member at the weekend is norm here.

Most UK courses would allow 3 guests with a member on a weekend.

Not on a Saturday morning if there's a medal on, they won't, which at most clubs is most weekends.

Mark - You must read things totally different to me. CLEARLY, THE REFERENCE I made was to UK clubs following the reference to the previous post.... can you not just say "yes sorry you were right?"

[Sean_A]

Chris

Your comments about wanting to pamper your course are quite interesting.  I know golfers are often blamed for driving up prices because of course condition demands, but do you think supers have played a major role in this if they can't learn to check what would seem like a natural desire to see the course in the best nick possible?

I agree with you about green speeds; stimping at 4-6 isn't the answer.  That said, I don't think greens stimped that slow back in '82.  That said again, I don't think greens actually run as fast today as people claim. 

Ciao

[Phil_the_Author]

Chris,

All of the comments so far and not a single one has mentioned a thing about what I believe is both the most important aspect of your "model" but also the most important feature that all on here should be interested in:

"An architecturally intersting course that is consistently in good condition."

We talk about "hidden gems" and it has been mentioned in the past just how good and unknown Rivermont which Chris owns is. This is a course that a person who is there to play golf; in other words the person who is looking for a GOLF CLUB rather than a COUNTRY CLUB would absolutely love playing week in and out. This is that course that the medium-income golf fanatic would jump at joining if it could be made affordable.

Chris, I think you have a "model" that would work perfectly at Rivermont... and I can't believe that you would lose many members year-to-year. Secondly, at that rate it would also work well for many mid-size companies who do business in the Atlanta area as a "national membership" club.

I don't know if it would work as a general model, but if these guys who had posted had played Rivermont, and we know that Mac became a member after doing so, they'd realize how incredibly special a golf course it is in the community in which it rolls through the hills of North Fulton County. 

[Bruce Katona]

Pat Mucci: 100 members @ $20,000 annual dues is Due Process Satbles in Colts Neck. The model works well for those guys, not most other clubs however.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Bruce,

Yes, it seems to work at Due Process which is run extremely well, providing those members with very special services.

My post was to show that perhaps it was easier to get 100 golfers to pay $ 21,000 in dues than three and a half times that number, 350 golfers to pay $ 6,000 in dues.

It would seem that the 100 golfer model would be more conducive to golf when you want it, not golf based on the need for pre-scheduled tee times.  That certainly has to be a plus for any golfer.

It would also seem to indicate that you wouldn't have to have an elaborate dining facility and menu, which again, is akin to the Due Process model.

[Sean_A]

From my perspective, the big problem with 100 members or 250 members for that matter is that one must bring his own game to the club damn near every week - a club which will feel like a ghost town most of the time - I get a cold shiver down my back thinking about it.  Its a big advantage having 600-750 members in terms of a GOLF CLUB because throw ups and comps are much easier to organize.  Plus, the course is being more fully subscribed.  At 100 or 250 members I bet the course is vastly under-subscribed which means much higher dues than necessary.

Ciao

[Mark Pearce]

Mark - You must read things totally different to me. CLEARLY, THE REFERENCE I made was to UK clubs following the reference to the previous post.... can you not just say "yes sorry you were right?"

Adrian,
You were comparing the UK to the US and that comparison wasn't fair, because, as you know, most weekends at most UK clubs there will be significant periods of time (most Saturdays at my club, I suspect that's the most common day) when guests are not allowed.

I'll say sorry, you were right when (if) you are.  On this one your comparison (as so often) was not a fair comparison to try to make your point.

[Mark Chaplin]

Where does all the money go at US clubs? You talk about the costs of keeping courses in great condition yet fabulous heaths near London can give great conditions for £1200-£1700 per year membership. With independent visitor income rought 33% percent of income add that onto the subs and you have £1800-£2300pa or US $2700-$3500pa. That's for full service clubs as well.

Most of the UK GCA'ers will also be choking at those figures as there are 100s of very fine member clubs (who do not have massive visitor income) charging their members under £1000pa.

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mark - Staff is the big cost. US courses probably have three times more of everything then we have. The need to irrigate and cut in the US may be ten times more, our lovely heaths still look great after two weeks unmown. We are blessed. We can still build a great course here for £1,000,000 probably less. Annual UK run costs can be £500,000.

[Mark Pearce]

My impression is that most US clubs have far more than just a golf course.  There are probably gyms, tennis courts, a pool and far fancier dining facilities.  All of this adds to the cost.  It's worth noting that in the UK probably only Wentworth offers facilities comparable to a US Country Club.  I don't know what membership at Wentworth costs but I get the impression it is an expensive membership by UK standards.

[Mark Chaplin]

Mark - The Wentworth Club is around £6-7k pa

[Mark Pearce]

So Wentworth is £500 per month at least.  Is there a joining fee and/or some equity purchase, do you know?

However, at that price it still looks a lot cheaper than many of the smarter US country clubs or the new US style clubs in the UK (Queenwood, Loch Lomond, Renaissance).

[Brent Hutto]

At most private USA clubs in my experience, the money goes to people, people, people everywhere. People to greet you in the parking lot, people to carry your bag from inside the clubhouse to outside the clubhouse. People in the bar. People in the dining room. People in the other dining room. Someone in the locker room. People cleaning the multiple rest rooms. People in the kitchen. People gardening. People maintaining the course. People bringing carts to the players and taking them back to storage. People washing the carts. People cleaning range balls.

And every soul among them gets paid. As do the multiple supervisors/foremen/managers/straw-bosses. And as do the big boss(es) over the supervisors. Oh, and the office staff. And a pro. And some assistant pros. Occasionally even a clerk in the proshop in addition to the pro and assistants.

It's pretty darned overwhelming even at clubs that only bring $200-$400 a month in dues from fewer than a thousand members. Hard to see how the books ever balanced even when the good times were rolling.

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