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Jason Topp

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Jason, I have the hookup and can get you on the Fiddlesticks here in Tempe:



I am going to try and take advantage of that one.  What is the dress code?

Jason Topp

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Jason,

I played Fiddlesticks a couple of times some 30 years ago.  I joined a group of three Germans which included the then president of whatever the German golf federation is called.  The three had been to a Golf Digest weeklong camp, were burnt to a crisp, and could barely move from all the previous work on their games.  We all played terrible, had a great time, and they asked me to join them the next day which I did.  Loved the low profile construction, the beach bunkers, the somewhat unsual trees, and the great variety in this fine Ron Garl course.  Years later I met Ron at a golf conference and we had long conversations about the industry and his work.  Interesting man.  Good memories.

Thanks Lou.  One of the guys I played with was of German Heritage.  He offered to play for a beer.  That did not work out too well for me.

Pete Buczkowski

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Wow Jason!  She's come a long way from cartwheels in my living room!  Boy do they grow up fast.

Cheers
Pete

Jason Topp

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Wow Jason!  She's come a long way from cartwheels in my living room!  Boy do they grow up fast.

Cheers
Pete

Nice to hear from you Pete.  How old are yours these days?

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #29 on: February 16, 2011, 12:49:00 PM »
     One reason I tend to prefer older courses over new creations is the ability of an older course to surprise.  The lack of earth moving equipment in the earlier part of this century required that odd features of the land be incorporated into the design rather than eliminated.  

     By contrast, even the most controversial courses of today, provide ample clues as to what lies ahead.  Tobacco Road is one of the more controversial modern designs featuring a plethora of blind tee shots.  Nonetheless the corridors of play are fairly well defined provided that the player pays attention to the dunes in the background and the yardage book.

     It was interesting therefore to play Bradenton Country Club, designed by Donald Ross in 1924 and renovated by Ron Garl in 1999.  The course is located on an almost dead flat site, and earthmoving appears minimal to this untrained eye.  One would not think such a course would present significant surprises to the player, but when my tee shot on the 3rd disappeared into a small pond that covered most of the fairway, I learned otherwise.  I did not learn well enough because my approach on a hole 7 disappeared into another unseen body of water.  

    Even though these surprises are unpleasant, I would rather play a course that contains them than a course devoid of unusual features.  I might hit the ball in the water again on these holes but I would know the challenge I face and would enjoy fighting the uncertainty associated with their blindness.

     Surprise was the theme of the day at Bradenton.  Our own Ben Kodadek arranged the round and asked whether my father and I wanted to walk the course and take caddies.  While that is my preferred form of play, such an effort would have been difficult given physical limitations of my father.   Thank goodness we did not walk because a member at the club had kindly arranged for Ben and his friend Dave to take this cart:



     Apparently this cart surprised the members at Bradenton as well.  Between his pink sweater and the cart, Ben was the star of the day at the club.  It did not appear that they had seen the cart before despite it being owned by one of their members.

     Ben and Dave also surprised us in their method of attacking the course.  As these pictures demonstrate, they had little interest in using any of the conventional areas of play:











     At least they demonstrated their support for a well paid college football team in Nebraska:



    Another surprise at the course was the bunker style.  I am no Donald Ross expert.  However, as much as I admire Ron Garl’s work at Fiddlesticks, this bunkering does not exactly send the message that one is playing a classic Donald Ross course:



I believe bunker style is overemphasized on this site because it is an issue that is easy to portray in pictures.  These bunkers play fantastic and present real hazards.  They eat into the greens, have steep faces and seem well positioned.  I also do not know how much the current course reflects Ross’ original design.  Nonetheless, I would probably have chosen a style more in line with something Ross might have created.  

   Another big surprise of the day at Bradenton was my father’s play.  My father does not play as much golf as he used to, but my efforts to assign him a handicap in the past have usually shortchanged him.  Ben – who has experience with me as a partner – started the day by immediately choosing my father as a partner instead of me.  That was a good decision by Ben (although a rough one for Dad).  Click on the picture below for one of my father’s shots along with my commentary supporting his efforts:




  By contrast, Dave got me as a partner – assigned a 5 handicap by some new form of mathmatics invented by an evil genius at the USGA.  Dave did not say much during the round.  At one point after losing another hole for the team, I commented “I think I am starting to understand why I shot 91 yesterday.”  Dave commented “You better figure out how to shoot 91 today.”

   Fortunately, Dave carried me around the course using his unique strategy of attack and I was able to partially offset my losses in my individual match with my father.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 02:02:38 PM by Jason Topp »

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2011, 12:52:30 PM »
   The trip to Florida was a wonderful opportunity to quickly escape the winter doldrums and reconnect with my father.



     It was also a wonderful opportunity for my father’s wife Tammy to find a different tennis partner and win a tournament (pictured with her partner’s daughter):



     But regardless of any impact on my father’s future tennis partnership, he can always take comfort in the fact he will never appear in a picture like this:



Dan Kelly

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2011, 01:02:21 PM »
[obsolete]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2011, 01:41:18 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Dan Kelly

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2011, 01:05:30 PM »
   
Click on the picture below for one of my father’s shots along with my commentary supporting his efforts:






Straight from the Johnny Miller Broadcasting School!

Where'd it end up? Short right, in the bunker?

Oh, I see it now. Nice shot, Dad!

(I thought I'd detected your saying things like that, under your breath, on the rare occasion when I've hit a good shot!)
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 01:07:03 PM »
     

(Where'd the ball end up? Short right, in the bunker?)

Actually next to the hole.  The shaky camera captures the ball at the end.

Ben Kodadek

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 04:58:28 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for throwing me under the bus, er.....cart.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #35 on: February 16, 2011, 09:19:43 PM »
Jason,

Thanks for throwing me under the bus, er.....cart.

Journalistic integrity required that I do so.

Carl Nichols

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #36 on: February 16, 2011, 11:49:21 PM »
Great thread....had me chuckling throughout.

Ben Kodadek

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2011, 09:11:05 AM »
Jason,

Post round, we retired to the clubhouse for a bite to eat.  They had aerials of the course prior to Garl's work in '99.  Unfortunately, he increased the pond size throughout the course dramatically.  I would guess by 30%.  Both balls you hit on 3 and 7 would have been dry if we were playing in 1998! 

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 11:55:24 AM »
Jason,

Post round, we retired to the clubhouse for a bite to eat.  They had aerials of the course prior to Garl's work in '99.  Unfortunately, he increased the pond size throughout the course dramatically.  I would guess by 30%.  Both balls you hit on 3 and 7 would have been dry if we were playing in 1998! 

That shoots a gaping hole in my theory that surprises are associated with old courses.  Fortunately, my credo is to prioritize narrative over accuracy.

Dan Kelly

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2011, 03:37:20 PM »
... my credo is to prioritize narrative over accuracy.

In other words: Journalistic Integrity!

You're catching on, Jason....
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2011, 11:34:04 PM »
My wife helpfully sent me a photo of the course near her hotel last weekend.  I cannot imagine anyone can name this course:


Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2011, 12:07:34 AM »
The driving range and first tee:


Sam Morrow

Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #42 on: February 24, 2011, 12:23:53 AM »
Stupid narrow and a batting cage range, reminds me of Dallas Country Club.

Jason Topp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #43 on: February 24, 2011, 12:14:11 PM »
The pictures are from a 3,000 yard nine hole course (with two flags on each green) called Club Deportivo Cocoyoc a couple of hours outside of Mexico City.  It is located next to a remarkable hotel Hacienda Cocyoc that dates to the 17th Century and was originally a sugar plantation.  Aqueducts, chapels and walls with trees growing out of them are located on the property.  We have stayed at the hotel several times in connection with charitable meetings my wife and I attend.  I was unable to make it this year.

http://www.cocoyoc.com.mx/www/golf.html

http://www.cocoyoc.com.mx/cocoyoc_eng/index.php

I have played the nine hole course once with rented clubs accompanied by a professional from a club in Mexico City and his son.  Communication was limited to my 50-100 words of Spanish but the bond of a father teaching his son a difficult game in an exotic location, the struggles of putting on old school bermuda greens (think velcro), and the thrill of the professional holing out for an eagle on a par four are memories I will always hold fondly. 

There is also an 18 hole course nearby that I have never visited.

Kyle Harris

Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 29 - Surprises at Bradenton
« Reply #44 on: February 24, 2011, 12:19:30 PM »
Jason:

I almost guessed those two photos were of the little Par 3 course in Pasadena, FL just off I275. I'm sure Ben Kodadek knows the exact one about which I am speaking.

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 45 - Barton Creek
« Reply #45 on: March 08, 2011, 04:19:20 PM »
     Last weekend I travelled with my long time foursome to visit Barton Creek in Austin, Texas.  My research on this website yielded little information about the courses at the resort, of which there are four.  I did not take too many pictures on this trip.  I was too busy enjoying good company, trying to digest giant ribs and trying to win $2 bets to focus on my photography skills.

     As to the resort, it is a very enjoyable place to stay with nice rooms and good service.  Barton Creek adheres to the strategy of getting customers in the door with a low rate off season and then soaking the customers on premise.  Food and beverage is incredibly expensive although the breakfast buffet included in the price was outstanding.  Carts for replay rounds were priced at $30 per person and a cart is a necessity on all but the Crenshaw course unless one enjoys mountain climbing.  We quickly learned to do our eating off site.

     While none of the courses would make a listing of the top courses I have played they provide a nice opportunity for someone interested in golf course architecture to compare the two leading approaches to designing courses in recent decades: two Fazio courses and an early Coore/Crenshaw minimalist effort.  

Fazio Foothills

    The Fazio courses are the most popular at the resort.  The original course (Fazio Foothills) dates to 1987.  It is a cartball course on severe terrain with some long drives between holes.  It also probably sets a record for the most waterfalls on any course on earth.  The course seemed very narrow to me, with the narrowness more pronounced by very firm ground and wind in the 10-15 mph range.  The greens were pretty demanding on one’s iron game with plenty of creek beds and other severe hazards guarding the front of relatively small greens.  

    I was apparently too busy hitting duck hooks into the trees to take any pictures of the course but this link provides a course tour.

http://www.bartoncreek.com/fazio-foothills.aspx

     One thing Fazio seems to do well that I enjoy is to include short par threes.  On this course three of the four par threes measure less than 150 yards from the tees we played.  The course also has a terrific short par four of about 260 yards – slightly uphill.  Off the tee it looks like a no brainer to try and drive the green but extremely severe bunkers and depressions short left of the green as well as a very large cliff hard against the back of the green create significant risk to those that attempt such an aggressive shot.  I would need to play the hole a few times to form a solid opinion but in our group, four drives wound up on the perimeter of the green and the result was one par, one bogey and two doubles.  Laying up would most likely resulted in an easy par.
I do not remember a lot of memorable holes on the course.  The 18th is a memorable par five finish that winds uphill and has a cave guarding the aggressive 2nd (or 3rd shot).  

     One effect of these short holes is that the course plays a bit longer than the yardage on the card.  We played it from the gold tees (a little over 6600 yards) and it seemed infinitely longer, even in warm weather.

Fazio Canyons

    The Canyons course is a few miles away from the main resort.  I would guess the course post-dates the Foothills course.  It provides more room off the tee than the Foothills course and is generally less demanding on iron play.  It seemed to me that the greens were less severe, but because I played the course later in the trip and played it twice, my feel for putting in Hill Country may have improved significantly, rendering comparisons meaningless.  

    The course tour from the website:

http://www.bartoncreek.com/fazio-canyons.aspx

(Some day, I would like to see course descriptions written without the marketing fluff.  I cannot imagine all of that hyperbole actually helps to sell rounds.)

     Several holes on the course were memorable.  The par-five 7th was a strong three shot par five with a canyon crossing on the second before an iron to an uphill green.  The hole ate my lunch twice but I would love another crack at it.  

     The par-four 10th featured a very difficult iron approach with a stream fronting the green as well as a cliff to the left.  These features made a good tee shot critical on the down-hill dogleg right.

     The 16th was my favorite hole on the course.  Uphill and a little over 300 yards we played the hole downwind one day and my line was over the bunker left and the limestone wall on the right came into play.  We played the hole into the wind the next day which made a short punch shot to a back pin with water left and an abyss behind the green a significant challenge.  Here is the view from the tee:


Palmer Lakeside

     The Palmer and Crenshaw courses at the resort are considered the lesser lights by paying customers.  The Palmer course dates from 1986 and is about 35 miles away from the resort.  Portions of the course sit atop high cliffs over Lake Travis.  Despite 20-25 mph winds and very cold temperatures, I was pleasantly surprised by the course as it easily exceeded my very modest expectations.  

     Course tour:  http://www.bartoncreek.com/palmer-lakeside.aspx

     View from the first tee:



     My favorite hole might have been the par five sixth.  The hole was reachable in two for our group with two perfect shots, but a tree short left of the green made the choice of line for the second an interesting decision.  This picture gives some sense of the second shot:



      The most memorable hole on the course is the par three 14th.  The hole is not so memorable for the shot – 120-140 yards to a reasonable sized green with modest contours.  However, the setting is spectacular – perched on a very high cliff above Lake Travis:





Crenshaw Cliffside

     Course Tour: http://www.bartoncreek.com/crenshaw-cliffside.aspx

     The Crenshaw Cliffside Course dates from 1991 and, along with the Plantation Course had the earliest opening of the Coore/Crenshaw design team.  It therefore provides an interesting historical glimpse into the early approach of this duo.  I have no idea how much dirt was moved to build this course – I suspect a fair amount given the severity of the terrain.  Nonetheless, this course reflects the lay of the land philosophy for which they later became famous.  

     I would love to travel in a time machine back to 1991 and hear comments from customers who had a steady stream of these types of views throughout the round:







     Another big advantage of the course is that it is walkable.  My sense is that walkers are almost an endangered species in this region of the country.  I saw several groups hoofing it around the course – something I would have done had I only been playing 18 holes a day.

     Bill McBride claims that 13 of the 18 greens slope front to back and while I did not audit his calculation, I would guess he is correct.  This side view of the 6th green (465 yard par four) demonstrates the type of challenge presented throughout the course.



   I really liked several of the individual holes on the course.  One of my favorites was a redan-like par three 13th.  160 yards to a green with a wash in front and a cliff behind.  The back left pin required that one hit the ball to the middle of the green and feed it left - a formidable task into the wind.


     The course is by far the most hospitable to a wide range of playing abilities.  Forced carries are generally short and nearly every green accepts a running approach.  The course rating of 72.2 and a slope of 118 attests to a course that can be enjoyed by all.

     There are drawbacks to this type of course.  

Most significantly – it is almost impossible to determine visually the best manner to attack the course.  Blind shots exist all over the place, especially off the tee.  The front to back and side to side slopes of the greens are not readily apparent to the player, and even if they are generally apparent, the degree to which a ball will run or bounce sideways is almost impossible to calculate for the first time visitor.  

I think many customers would not find the tee to green portion of the course interesting.  The fairways are wide and the advantage of a better angle is only learned from experience and cannot be learned by eyesight.  

Coore/Crenshaw's reliance on long and short par fours leaves relatively little room for challenges in the middle.  I find myself wishing for a simple driver/7 iron hole.  Instead, the driver, the fairway woods and the wedge get a real workout.

Finally – the 17th green is extremely severe and reminded me of the 11th at Penard – with a very narrow green and a bank behind that allowed bank shots onto the green.  The crucial difference is that the 17th at this course is fronted by a canyon and a bank shot can easily feed back into the hazard if the bounce is too strong.

     Nonetheless, I preferred the Crenshaw course over the others by a pretty wide margin.  The width was an enjoyable antidote to the Fazio courses.  It was nice to have a poorly struck iron run along the ground rather than go in water.  The putting and chipping around the greens was terrific fun and we learned as we went along.  We played the course twice in one day and our group scored significantly better the second time around.  
« Last Edit: March 09, 2011, 02:38:52 PM by Jason Topp »

Dan Kelly

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 45 - Barton Creek
« Reply #46 on: March 08, 2011, 04:32:48 PM »
     It was nice to have a poorly struck iron run along the ground rather than go in water.

Too bad Joe Hancock didn't say this. I'd have myself a new signature line.
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Bill_McBride

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 45 - Barton Creek
« Reply #47 on: March 08, 2011, 04:35:06 PM »
Jason, I have played all the Barton creek courses a number of times and agree with you that the Crenshaw Cliffside course is by far the most interesting and fun to play.  Ironically it's the easiest to get on of the close in courses because the Fazio courses get all the attention.  Both are Top 25 in Texas with the Crenshaw course nowhere to be found.  The Palmer course gets little love but I liked it.

Right on about the BC ripoff.  I hope you made it to Chuy's for the Tex-Mex.

Jason Topp

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 45 - Barton Creek
« Reply #48 on: March 08, 2011, 04:39:55 PM »
Right on about the BC ripoff.  I hope you made it to Chuy's for the Tex-Mex.

Bill - thanks for the tip - I went to two different Chuy's - one was a small mexican place that I visited with a friend of mine from the area.  The other was Chuy's Hula Hut (or something like that) which was a crowded tourist spot on the river.  Both were solid restaurants although I liked the more local spot a bit better.

Bill_McBride

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Re: Topp's Travels 2011 - Updated in Reply 45 - Barton Creek
« Reply #49 on: March 08, 2011, 06:22:32 PM »
We go to the local place. Nobody does it better. The Hula Hut is too busy. And southside is closer to the South Congress juke joints!  Austin is fun!