[Brian Stewart]

Andy,

OK, I guess we'll agree to disagree on that.  I grew up in SE KY and lived in Northern KY (near IN and Cincinnati) for 3 years and also, unfortunately, NE FL (JAX) for 4 years.  Courses I have played in IN and OH proved to be just as difficult to find an offline ball as AZ for me.  FL is also similar but different in that it is just water instead so often it is just lost.

Anyway, you just kinda get used to finding your ball out here and very good at spotting it in order to make sure you find it.  If you want a course as narrow as DF that gets as much acclaim you can look to famous Irish links courses, e.g. Portmarnock.     

[Andy Troeger]

Brian,
Perhaps it depends on the course. I'm not a fan of the long grass areas off fairways that seemed to continue to appear at different courses. Same thing though--if its thin enough to allow some playability it creates interest. If its too thick it detracts from the course.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Matt,
I am trying to think of a better example than Sahalee--I agree with your sentiment. However, I can't think of a single other course rated in the top 100 of any major USA list that has the driving demands of Desert Forest combined with with the penalty for missing. The narrow ones give some recovery options, and the penal ones have wider fairways/corridors. Is there another?

I would put Olympic-Lake and Prairie Dunes in this category.   Both great courses that demand a strong and accurate tee ball, and the penalty, especially at Olympic is high if off the fairway approaching the small well-protected greens.

DFGC is frankly one of my favorite courses anywhere, and I'm not the longest off the tee, and I can spray it once in awhile, but ive never felt overly pressured on the tee.  Not anymore so than when I'm at Olympic

[Matt_Ward]

Brian:

Thanks for the MINOR correction on my original point. DF is JUST beyond 7,000 yards but my original point still stands the course is not overly long and with thin desert air players can get a boost in their overall distance. Control, more than anything else, is the operative word.

Andy:

The sad fact is that the nearer you go to SE FL and play many of the top tier layouts there the "effective" width becomes an issue. When you add heavy wind which is not unheard of -- and you then add the corset elements of H20 which abuts many holes plus OB stakes which have been added because of housing and the narrow elements do apply.

I also have to say that DF, as Brian mentioned, does have playable spots in the desert - it's not as all is lost.

Wayne:

You are right on the former Olympic club -- possibly people can comment on what has happened there with the most recent course work there.

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Brian:

Thanks for the MINOR correction on my original point. DF is JUST beyond 7,000 yards but my original point still stands the course is not overly long and with thin desert air players can get a boost in their overall distance. Control, more than anything else, is the operative word.

Andy:

The sad fact is that the nearer you go to SE FL and play many of the top tier layouts there the "effective" width becomes an issue. When you add heavy wind which is not unheard of -- and you then add the corset elements of H20 which abuts many holes plus OB stakes which have been added because of housing and the narrow elements do apply

I also have to say that DF, as Brian mentioned, does have playable spots in the desert - it's not as all is lost.

Wayne:

You are right on the former Olympic club -- possibly people can comment on what has happened there with the most recent course work there.

Matt -

I think the tee ball challenges on the Lake are, in general, more apparent as the turf conditions have improved with the tree loss over the past couple years.  That has resulted in firmer fairways where the ball has the propensity to bound further than in the past.  Now I haven't been a member as long as some of the others on here, but I think they'd agree that if the rough is up and the fairways are dry and firm controlling the driver is paramount to success.

Also re: DFGC I'm always impressed by the assuredness members have of finding their ball when it's ventured into the desert.  And we almost always find it.

WW

[Adam Clayman]

Andy, I think any course that has ample numbers of varying contours, replete throughout the fairway, no matter how wide, fits what I was trying to impart. Accentuating a rub o' green concept, along with the randomness of result, that most low markers can't stand.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys,

Tightness in fairways is really about playability options should one stray. There's enough rm at DF from what I recall for people to play a recovery shot of some sort.

Frankly, I laugh out loud when people make the erroneous claim that Black Mesa is not playable for the very same reasons. That is really nonsense given how DF plays even narrower. To each his own I guess.

[Andy Troeger]

Wayne,
Interesting mention of Prairie Dunes. I found that to be wider, but the gunch is even less forgiving. I have to admit I found that a weakness there too though, even if the course is great otherwise. Given the site probably has more windy days, the playable width might not be that different. This admittedly comes down to personal preference more than anything. Of the great courses I've played, Prairie Dunes wouldn't be one I'd want to play regularly. Neither is Desert Forest. That doesn't necessarily diminish their qualities as much as my own lousy golf game!

Matt,
I'm not a huge fan of Florida golf, although I think you have to judge each course on its individual merit. Water as a hazard definitely plays a bigger part there than most areas of the country with which I am familiar.

All,
I seem to be outnumbered on the playability of the desert attributes of DF and my experience with the course is certainly less than some of the rest of you. I've also heard that its been cleared out a bit since I was there. So it might be time for me to bow out, I think I've made my point by now!

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

FL golf is repleete with places that are quite narrow in the "effective" sense of the word -- you also get stuck with plenty of sure fire unplayable situations -- such as OB and H20 which are quite close in plenty of instances with the playing areas.

Desert Forest is narrow in spots but frankly, as I mentioned previously, you can club down and try to aim the ball to the more generous portions there.

Like I said previously -- when I hear people bitching about BM being too tight and very playable -- I laugh because BM is much more playable than DF but for many it's not as acclaimed. Go figure.

[Jim Franklin]

Black Mesa is not as narrow as Desert Forest. Plus, when I did stray at both venues, my ball was easily playable at BM while not so much at DF. With that said, I loved both. Black Mesa should be at the top of "To play" lists for anyone that has not played there.

[Matt_Ward]

Interesting to see Gary's opinion on Wolf Creek -- I guess it all depends upob how open-minded one can be.

I've said this before -- but the overall landscape of the place and the thrill ride (literally with cart in tow!) makes for a powerful experience.

Throw in some of the wind velocities that Gary had to handle and it makes for a real adventure of Indiana Jones magnitude.

[Forrest Richardson]

Matt — What a shame that you do not include Legend Trail or Lookout Mountain. I do not suppose you have played Lookout Mountain, so I give you a pass for that...or, should you have played it? Hard to say.

And, Adam makes very good points — Piñon Hills is too low.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I have played Legend Trail -- very playable course but would not even get a sniff for my top tier courses I mentioned. I like LT but the bar for overall courses is high and high for many different reasons.

I have not played Lookout Mountain so people can weigh in with their thoughts if they see it as being the best of the best for desert golf options.

In regards to Pinon Hills -- I've played it a few times -- would have been better if original routing were followed and if they learned not to DOUSE the play with too much H20 which slows down the course and undercuts the architecture elements that Ken Dye provided.

Pinon could move up but when you weigh ALL the desert type courses in play -- the competition is keen for a clear reason. The bar has gone up substanially in the last 20 years. One final thing -- take a place like Black Mesa -- Pinon Hills is a good ways behind that course for a host of reasons.

[Gary Slatter]

Wolf Creek    My brother and I played Wolf Creek on Wed Feb 16th.   Two senior golfers, both under 6 HDCP, decided to play the Blue tees at 6400 yards.  We played the first 7 holes in 65 degree weather with 10 mph breeze. Perfect.  Both 1 over par.  The 8th hole is the toughest par three I've ever played - 217 downhill into a 30 mph wind, green surrounded by a stream and the bail out area to the right out of reach.  The wind remained with us for the last 10 holes, making a difficult course unplayable.  However we finished and hope to return.

We loved the course, it certainly is a one of a kind.  If the cliffs and ravines surrounding each fairway were covered with green fescue instead of desert it would play like a links.  The tee shots were almost all to wide targets, but frought with danger.   Into the wind our tee shots usually cleared the desert by feet, not yards.  Prior to the wind starting the course was not difficult.  We joined a Manchester single on the 16th - he said he didn't mind the wind, "it's the sand in the wind that's difficult".  The wind on 18 (par 4 307 yards) was so strong none of us could reach the fairway from the tee - 153 yards!

Matt, it would be in my top 5 desert courses, on a normal day.  The Panks course, Conestoga GC, is next door and a bit better for the average player.  Wolf Creek is OK for 9 and under HDCPs, tough in this economy.

[Jerry Kluger]

Matt:  Wouldn't you consider Sand Hills and Ballyneal to be desert golf. Jerry

[Jim Hoak]

Matt--As a seasonal resident of Scottsdale, I have only played DM-Outlaw in the winter, and it did not care for it for several reasons.  But I've been told that it is the best in the summer.  Do you agree?  And, if so, what did I miss about it in the winter?  What makes it different in the the seasons?  I did play it when it first opened and have not been back, so that could influence my opinion.

[Matthew Petersen]

Jeff:

I have played Legend Trail -- very playable course but would not even get a sniff for my top tier courses I mentioned. I like LT but the bar for overall courses is high and high for many different reasons.

I have not played Lookout Mountain so people can weigh in with their thoughts if they see it as being the best of the best for desert golf options.

In regards to Pinon Hills -- I've played it a few times -- would have been better if original routing were followed and if they learned not to DOUSE the play with too much H20 which slows down the course and undercuts the architecture elements that Ken Dye provided.

Pinon could move up but when you weigh ALL the desert type courses in play -- the competition is keen for a clear reason. The bar has gone up substanially in the last 20 years. One final thing -- take a place like Black Mesa -- Pinon Hills is a good ways behind that course for a host of reasons.

Matt,

Forrest brought up those two courses, I'm guessing, because he designed (and/or helped to design) them. Legend Trail is more often credited to Rees Jones since he has the name, but just playing the course I certainly get the impression that it is more Forrest's course.

Lookout Mountain is an interesting course, with some really fun holes and several very unique ones. The 120 yard par 3 9th might have the hardest green to hit in Arizona. Or, rather, to hit and hold.


Forrest, Were you consulted at all for the recent work at Lookout Mountain? My understanding is they converted the course's three water hazards (15, 16, and 18) into "desert" areas as a way to save water/money. Haven't seen it except for a bit of 18 from the road. Seems like the change there would take away any fear of going for the green.

[Gary Slatter]

Matt--As a seasonal resident of Scottsdale, I have only played DM-Outlaw in the winter, and it did not care for it for several reasons.  But I've been told that it is the best in the summer.  Do you agree?  And, if so, what did I miss about it in the winter?  What makes it different in the the seasons?  I did play it when it first opened and have not been back, so that could influence my opinion.

I prefer ALL desert courses in the summer, when they are not over-seeded.  The rye and other grasses require too much water and conditions are not as good as in the late April through August periods.

[Matt_Ward]

Gary:

No doubt when air is calm and or 10 mph or less -- Wolf Creek presents a far different situation. Get the winds up beyond 25 mph and it takes plenty of shotmaking skills to handle the challenges.

Frankly, if the wind is really blowing that hard -- most people should only play the 8th at the 150-yard marks. Going back to the tips at 245 yards is only for those who have a very low single digit handicap and the guts to hit a very demanding approach shot from that distance.

Jerry K:

The short answer is no.

Hard to draw the line literally at different locales.

Cases can be made for courses in the OR and WA areas too. I even mentioned Red Ledges in Heber City but I don't see those place as being vintage desert locales.

No doubt others may see it differently.

Jim:

I have only played Outlaw in the winter / early spring time frame. Loved the course because it presented a far different approach from Team Nicklaus when weighed against the other DM courses. You can walk the course -- free of housing clutter and the views of the surrounding desert locale are well done and add to the day.

The only downside for me is the approach at the par-4 10th -- the shallow hard green makes an approach quite exacting. Given the chorus that advocates playability with design flexibility -- Outlaw certainly provides that dimension and much more.

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

I've played a few of the courses in the top part of the list and think that you need to play Desert Forrest again a few times.  This is one of the rare courses where members who carry the ball 150 yards scare the pros in money games.  Last week I witnessed 8 straight pars from such as player because the ground game is an integral part of the design.  Only 2 of the par 3's demand an aerial shot and all par 4's and 5's allow for runup approaches.  The first time I played there, I substituted Cameloback mountain for Morne,  the desert for grouse. and a difference in bunker styles and thought I was very close to playing RCD.  The feel of DF is similar--though RCD is in my world top 10, DF isn't quite that great, but is truely great! 
  Whisper Rock lower is superb, but there are a couple of holes that need tweeking to suropass DF.  Upper is a typical generic Fazio that failed to properly use the best property of the club.  The course has no strategy. 
 Estancia is the equivilent of faux art on canvas--pretty with wonderful desert visuals but toatally lacking in golf strategy.
 Desert Mountain has solid Nicklaus courses, but not quite in true greatness categories.
 Black Mesa has some incredible holes like 2, 10-13, but the weak finish kills its high rating.  16 and 18 are lost opportunities that maybe will be fixed one day.  I birdied both, so it had nothing to with the fact that both holes present high score opportunites.
 Talking Stick is really easy, but a whole lot of fun--probably worthy of a top 25

[Brad Isaacs]

Desert highlands is notable for the history it provides.  I feel it is a much better course now than it was 20 years ago. It deserves note and I am not a Nicklaus fan. I feel it stands up better than the Desert Mountain courses have, but the true gem of a golf course...

 Desert Forrest, Red Lawrence's Masterpiece.

 Haven't played whisper rock yet, but I really would not include the non desert courses like shadow creek , and southern highlands. They both are very good but not desert courses.

Wolf Creek at mesquite is based upon just can't get into it, sorry
Black Mesa is really good but don't make me walk it and to get into the top tier, you really should be a great walking course, this being golf.(I like We Ko Pa a lot in that area as well)

Where does this lead? Back to Desert Forrest! My vote for one of the most underrated golf courses desert or not.

[Matt_Ward]

Robert M.D.

Appreciate your take but consider the following.

You say DF is beyond what courses I mentioned -- can you tell me what courses from my top tier picks you have not played ? A bit of perspective helps. I have played DF twice -- about 7-8 years apart and really enjoyed the course. It's not what it provides but what has come since then in terms of desert golf evolutionary movements in design. You didn't mention what Jack did at DH and I concur with Doak's comments in CG about what it added to the scene.

Also -- WR / Lower is beyond DF -- you'll need to identify with specifics what "couple of holes need tweaking." Lefty and Gary Stephenson have taken DF and gone a good bit beyond. The greensites are likely the best in the entire Valley area -- just set for different shots and unless you get off the tee in both adequate lengthand direction -- you'll have problems. Recoverying around them is no e-z feat. Also, I need clear specific when you say both WR / Upper and Estancia totally empty of strategic calculation. I found that anti-TF bias emerging. Candidly, I see them as two of the very best TF courses one can play from the 75+ of his I have golfed.

TS -- being a top 25 layout for all the desert courses ? How so? I don't see it beyond the likes of Vista Verde, Saguaro at Wee-ko-pa or even places like Sunridge Canyon, The Raven at Verrado or Engh's Blackstone.


In regards to DM -- I think you considerably shortchanged what developer Lyle Anaerson and Team Nicklaus did there. Renegade was quite evolutionary for what it provides -- can be set-up for maximum or minimum as needed. The original Geronimo was a real bear to play -- sort of like the triple diamond ski course -- it's been changed since then but it still has plenty of sizzle in a number of areas. The Cochise got plenty of visibility when hosting The Tradition but I find it to be the least of what is there -- minus what you get from Apache. Robert -- no love for Chirichua ? What a fantastic start to the course and one of Jack's best short par-4 holes is there with the neat 2nd. You also have a total change of pace layout with Outlaw. Can be walked -- free of housing clutter and the intergration of the aerial and ground games works very well there -- you also have greensites that ebb and flow and balls can falloff the sides or back unless properly judged. It's not sink-or-swim demanding like the others but more of a big time mind game -- especially for the better players who expect to score low there -- and often times don't.


In regards to your comments on BM I am truly baffled. You saluted the combo of holes like #2 and #10 thru #13 -- did you forget the first rate ying and yang of holes such as the par-5 6th ? The all-star nature of the short par-4 7th and the fearsome par-3 8th which often plays into a terror like prevailing wind ? Shall I mention others ?



You also say there's a "weak finish." Really. The 15th is a stellar par-3 with a fantastic spine that separates the upper left from the lower right. When the pin is on the high left -- it takes nothing short of an A+ approach to hit and finish near the pin. The par-5 16th is well done because it transitions you from one area of the property to the remaining two holes. The uphill tee shot temps the big play -- and the greensite alone is worthy of study for hours. The par-4 17th is one the 2-3 best at BM. Again, you have spine in the fairway that can push and pull shots to either side. The deeper the tee shot the shorter the approach but it needs to be well-played. The approach is routinely misplayed -- either too short or too far -- the uphill nature of the green totally distorts the actual "must fly" carry nature needed. The 18th represents a placement dilemma for many players. You are tempted to squeeze more to the right -- but too far right doesn't add much -- pull it too far left and the approach becomes longer -- go too far and you're deadsville. Just a great site with the western windmill as your backdrop. Robert, you say 16 and 18 are "lost opportunities" -- could not disagree more with you on that one. BM is frankly, for me, ahead of DF and any number of other desert courses for the utter variety and infinite challenges it presents.



Thanks for your thoughts ...

[Matt_Ward]

Brad:

Good point -- OK, then tell me how you would define desert courses - must the terrain -- onsite and offsite be really tied to a much more natural and inclusive setting. I hear what you say about SC and SH.

BM can be walked -- if Bethpage Black is walkable then BM most certainly is.

In regards to Wolf Creek you'll have to tell me where you see the major deficiencies. No doubt it's an acquired taste !
Before shoving off for now -- you need to play WR / Lower. DF is a first rate course but the desert design has moved up a good bit in
the last 20-25 years.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Desert Forest first on any Desert list for my vote.

[Matt_Ward]

Tiger:

Again -- same point.

Have you played all the others I listed above DF ?

Context and courses played does help in knowing.

If DF is the best and you have not played the others it would be important to note.

Frankly, I see WR / Lower being ahead of DF.

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