AZ's Top 25 ...

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

If Brad gives the layout just a six (6) -- then it would not make my top 25.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Matt I have played most of them. Frankly i do not think anything I have seen is even close much less worth a discussion. I may be biased but DF took my breath away. There is a good bit of fun desert golf but for my money very little great desert golf. There are many desert courses that possess many incredible views vistas and shot making moments. But for a golf course and golf course alone, DF is great timeless desert golf. Your home state is blessed to have a large number of these timeless great courses.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Paging Bill Schulz:


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php?topic=21378.0

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Curious to know if you agree w BK's assessment of Lehman's layout ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

Have you played Encanterra? If not, it's worth a visit.


I'd rather play there than at Quintero, for example.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

That's fine -- except I am not a fan of Quintero either.

Try to keep in mind -- when you say "worth a visit" -- I don't usually make such visits unless the buzz is well worth it.

From what BK wrote I don't see it. Help me to understand what he didn't see that you do.

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

You mentioned about some sleepers that deserve attention -- check out Hassayampa in the Prescott area. Really well done Weiskopf course that gets little attention.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,

What state is up next? Colorado?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Matt,

I'll try to get up to Prescott when it gets a little warmer here before I leave in mid April and play Hassayampa now that it's open for some public play.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

I'm curious...how much does the "experience" at WR influence you?  Be honest now....

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Food for thought regarding Colorado. Wonder if people are interested in an overall listing or one that's only public course listing ?

Mike:

I like the idea that Lefty and Gary Stephenson didn't do the same type of desert layout. WR / Lower has a different profile. The tee dimension is very challenging but not in a brutal way -- the sight lines are tougher to read and much of that comes from repeat plays where you can develop a comfort zone prior to pulling the trigger.

I am not impressed or caught up with the non-golf related dimensions. I have played a number of top tier places that provide more jucie to what goes on off the course than on it.

WR / Lower has a wonderful array of greens and change of pace situations throughout the round. No doubt the scenry helps matters along -- but the desert doesn't really come into play save for the wildest of wild shots.

Curious to know if you have played the course and what your take is on it.

[Mike Wagner]

Matt,

I have played them.  I completely disagree with your assesment of the desert being in play for only the wildest of wild shots.  I do agree with the greens being interesting and extremely difficult to read.

I wouldn't put the upper course in my top 25 - maybe even top 50.  Lower would make my top 25.

[Matt_Ward]

Mike:

Cherry-picking off someone else's list is fairly e-z to do.

How bout you post your top 25 and I can provide my comments in rebuttal ?

Upper at WR not even top 50 ? Surely you jest.

You do have WR / Lower in the top 25 but don't say where specifically. Please fill in the blanks -- thanks.

[Andy Troeger]

I think overall listings are more interesting, especially since a state like Colorado has enough solid public options that would make an overall listing anyway.

[Jim Franklin]

Overall would be great Matt, just make sure Lakota isn't in your top 5.:-)

//tried putting in a smiley but it ain't working.

[Dave Givnish]

Here's the Golfweek top courses in Arizona - first time that I've seen the Meadows at Forest Highlands on a list.

39. Desert Forest Golf Club
54. Forest Highlands Golf Club (Canyon)
68. The Rim
69. Estancia
85. We-Ko-Pa Golf Club (Saguaro)
92. Whisper Rock (Upper)
95. The Stone Canyon Club
118. Quintero
129. Whisper Rock (Lower)
147. Seven Canyons Golf Club
177. Desert Highlands
180. Forest Highlands Golf Club (The Meadow)
194. Golf Club Scottsdale

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Hard to fathom -- that GW has WR / Upper over WR / Lower ?

And you don't see other layouts like any from the Desert Mtn combo -- or from Silverleaf. Seven Canyon is rated because of the off-course scenery more than anything else in my mind.

[Andy Troeger]

I like Forest Highlands Meadow quite a bit. It was in the top ten in state per Golf Digest up until 2009 if I remember correctly. Solid, perhaps not spectacular course that's well worth playing if one goes to Flagstaff to see the Canyon.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

Pine Canyon is better than FH / Meadow in my mind. The Weiskopf 2nd 18 gets plenty of mileage with the better known and rated Canyon in its midst.

Have to wonder how other courses have been ignored by GW -- too much anti-desert bias in my mind.

Silverleaf is one of TW's top tier designs but no one mentions it. A pity.

[Dave Givnish]

Upper being higher rated than Lower is a hard for me to see.  Lower is much more interesting to play as it seems to me there are more choices off the tee and some more variety on how to come into the greens.  Upper has repetitive holes and the par 3's aren't as good.

Silverleaf will get more love in the next couple of years as people get exposed to what the new superintendent is doing with drying the course out.  It will probably do better in the Golf Digest ratings than in GW because they have a great clubhouse.

I haven't played Outlaw but I can't really see which of the other courses at Desert Mountain should be higher rated than any of these - maybe Chiricauha (sp?).  Not sure that they should be lower either. 

Pine Canyon probably should have been higher than the Meadow or Seven Canyons.  I wonder if there is an access problem since raters probably tend to visit Arizona in the winter when the Flagstaff courses are closed.

[Matt_Ward]

Dave:

Thanks.

Pine Canyon has been seen by the minimum number needed -- that's my understanding.

Glad to hear about Silverleaf and what's happening there now. Wonderful layout and one that Weiskopf doesn't get
enough credit for in doing.

I would have Chirichua amongst the high grouping -- ditto for Outlaw - great contrats between the two and they really
add a dimenjsion to playing Desert Mtn when there.

[Andy Troeger]

I admit to having a bit of a hard time differentiating some of these course from each other in terms of quality or fun. I like courses like Renegade, Chiricahua, Outlaw, Blackstone, Desert Highlands, Stone Canyon, Forest Highlands Meadow, Seven Canyons, Whisper Rock Upper, Dove Mountain, and probably a couple others, but I find it tough to differentiate all that much between them. I'd give them all similar Doak scores, and some of them make these various lists and others don't. Given the lack of diversity of scores for the second 100, the ones that miss probably don't miss by much.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

The desert bias exists with many people -- some played a certain couse(s) from years ago and seem to believe that desert golf has not evolved considerably since then.

Seven Canyons should not be rated that highly -- great off-course scenery but lacking what a place like Silverleaf offers.

Outlaw at DM is Nicklaus going 180 degrees away from what a few of the other DM courses are about. Unfortunately, so many people don't get the nature of what Outlaw provides -- it's not the typical penal desert layout by any means. I really like Chirichua and why it doesn't resonate boggles my mind. The 2nd hole there is one of Jack's best short par-4 holes and it's design showed me that Jack was fully capable in having top tier change of pace holes.

I don't see them getting similar Doak rating numbers -- far from it. Stone Canyon is one of Jay Moorish's best courses -- I have a few issues with two of the forced lay-ups there but overall it's a gem of a layout -- plenty of fun holes and fully capable in entertaining the masses and the top tier player.

In regards to WR / Lower how GW can have the Upper ahead of it in it's modern listing truly amazes me. WR / Lower is one of my personal favorites to play anywhere -- just well done by Lefty and Gary Stephenson - take the concept of what made DF so special and brought it up to the speed of 2011.

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
That's all great, but I still give them all about the same score! Any of them could show up on #101-200 and I'd be ok with it, and I'm not offended by any of them missing out. The best ones in my estimation are already on the original list: Forest Highlands Canyon, We-Ko-Pa Saguaro, Estancia, and The Rim. Actually...Renegade is better than the others I listed the first time around too. And it's not listed at all...but I can think of other courses that I think are bigger omissions from other parts of the country. 

I've come to the conclusion that desert golf has a ceiling of sorts--not in that it's not POSSIBLE to build a great desert course that stacks up with the best of the best, but I sure haven't seen one. You can repeat about how desert golf has evolved over time and all that, but I don't really agree. Its tough to balance interesting strategy with reasonable recovery options, especially given turf restrictions. I like the desert courses that err on the side of playability, I get the impression you prefer the more challenging ones.

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

I am offended that a number of them DO miss out. You say there's a ceiling. Really? What elements hold them back beyond personal preferences?

Far too many people view desert golf as some sort of sideshow / circus act of limited opportunities.

You see The Rim? More eye-candy than anything else -- the layout across the street has the edge for me.

Nicklaus excelled at Outlaw -- a far different take than what you get with Chirichua -- both together are really a nice combination of things. Silverleaf and WR / Lower are bonafide top 100 modern type courses. You mention Meadow at FH -- Weiskopf did even better at Silverleaf.

I don't see Saguaro at We-ko-pa as being such a superstar layout -- the first third of the course is a yawn -- it's only towards the final six holes when things really pick up speed. Just my opinion though and I don't expect to change your mind.

Spot on with Renegade -- I too like the course at DM.