Mysteries

[Tom MacWood]

With proliferation of digitized resources there have been a number of attributional discoveries. What are some of the remaining mysteries?

Obviously Merion is still unclear; PV & Kittansett are a little murky, but still fairly well understood; Crystal Downs is a mystery IMO; I'm still confused about Yale - Raynor or CBM or CBM/Raynor; quite a bit of conjecture about Cypress Point; an accurate assessment of Old Tom's designs. For me Princess Anne in Virginia is a complete mystery. It was one of the top designs at the height of the golden age in America and I don't have the foggiest idea who is responsible.

[Melvyn Morrow]

Deleted

[Anthony Fowler]

Just because a course cannot easily be attributed to 1 person does not mean that its history is a mystery.  We know more about the history of PV, Merion, Kittansett, Crystal Downs, Cypress, and Yale than we know about 99.9% of courses in the world.  It would be unproductive to go through each of these courses and figure out who should be given headlining credit.  Instead, we can appreciate the richer history of some of these courses and acknowledge that many people were important in the process. 

A quick question about Yale.  I believe that George Bhato wrote on here that CBM himself said that his role was simply advisory at Yale.  If that's the case then it's pretty clear that Raynor deserves the bulk of the credit (but certainly not all).

If I've misunderstood your post, can you write a brief sentence about each course explaining the mystery for each one?

[Jim Nugent]

Tom, other than Merion, could you briefly explain each mystery?  Also, I thought Bethpage Black used to be on this list.  

[PCCraig]

Mysteries? I can find them on Google Maps very quickly if you'd like me to show you...

[Tom MacWood]

Just because a course cannot easily be attributed to 1 person does not mean that its history is a mystery.  We know more about the history of PV, Merion, Kittansett, Crystal Downs, Cypress, and Yale than we know about 99.9% of courses in the world.  It would be unproductive to go through each of these courses and figure out who should be given headlining credit.  Instead, we can appreciate the richer history of some of these courses and acknowledge that many people were important in the process.  

A quick question about Yale.  I believe that George Bhato wrote on here that CBM himself said that his role was simply advisory at Yale.  If that's the case then it's pretty clear that Raynor deserves the bulk of the credit (but certainly not all).

If I've misunderstood your post, can you write a brief sentence about each course explaining the mystery for each one?

Anthony
I'm not sure I would agree that we know more about those listed golf courses than we do 99.9% of the courses in the world. And besides this site is not devoted to 99.9% of the golf courses, it is devoted to the best of the best, and for the majority of those elite courses they're not mysteries.  

For the years Kittansett credited Frederic Hood for the design. Wayne Morrison has claimed Flynn deserves the credit. Golf Architecture in America (Thomas) credit Hugh Wilson, Flynn and Hood, in that order. Who designed Kittansett?

Have you read CBM's account of the Yale project in his book? Based on that my impression is he did more than advise.

Who deserves credit for PV? Crystal Downs?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom, other than Merion, could you briefly explain each mystery?  Also, I thought Bethpage Black used to be on this list.  

Bethpage is another mystery, although IMO I think the evidence points to both men deserving some credit, with Tilly getting more than Burbeck.

I take it you understand the mysteries surrounding Merion.

Yale and Kittansett I've already mentioned.

Crystal Downs, I've not seen any evidence supporting the idea that Mackenzie designed the course.

At PVGC, was Crump involved in laying out the golf course, and what exactly should he be given credit for from design standpoint. Do Colt and Alison deserve more credit than they are presently given? Should Hugh Wilson and Tilly get some design credit?

Cypress Point, did Mackenzie use Raynor's routing?

Having OTM's name associated with golf course was, and still is, a great honor. Which of those courses does he deserve primary design credit as opposed to advisory credit, or even ceremonial credit?

[Tim Liddy]

Tom,

From William Shonk, General Manager at Princess Anne CC:

"Our club history document that states our founding father and club architect Clarence A. Neff laid out the golf course initially and in February of 1921 our first professional Mr. Walter Beckett helped finish the course in order to open in May 1921.

As you recall, in all due respect to Mr.  Neff, I very much wanted to discover that Mr. CB McDonald, Seth Raynor, Donald Ross or some other famous architect was involved with this design; but I now believe it was Mr. Neff and Mr. Beckett."

I recall in our research for the Princess Anne CC we found a local newspaper article that stated Donald Ross designed the golf course but felt it was written in error.  Also, with Cavalier CC next door and built in 1928, I always wondered if some of the crew might have touched up Princess Anne CC. A few of the early photos suggest a bit of the steam shovel influence.

They are sending me their club history shortly and will post if it contains further information.

[Tom MacWood]

Tim
That is definitely a possibility, but I'm of the opinion there is confusion regarding Neff. I believe he was engineer/architect/construction man, and he designed Princess Anne's clubhouse. Its possible he did both, but I have not seen anything contemporaneous crediting him, or anyone else, for the design of the golf course.

[Rory Connaughton]

From speaking with a few Kittansett members, I was under the impression that the club now recognizes Flynn as the architect with contributions by Hood.

[Tim Liddy]

Tom,

There is a bit of naivete in the original layout design with 8 shots hitting over streets. Also, the bunkering in early photos looks very basic and not of any style which I am familiar, supporting the Neff design.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

By what measurable metric are you defining credit?

The overwhelming majority of the accounts I've ever read of Pine Valley's creation notes Colt's involvement, for example.

[Michael Blake]

Kyle,

I agree regarding Colt & P.V.
Everything I've read, including C & W, credit Colt with the routing.

[Mike Cirba]

Here's two articles about Pine Valley written by Tillinghast early in 1913 months before Harry Colt arrived.

Note the name of the Committee in the bottom article.   It's clear that Crump and his committee were already designing and building the course.

Colt clearly helped with the final routing and a number of the holes, but to exclude one for the other, or to minimize what Crump did over the course of almost six years to create that course is asinine.

That's why you see it referred to as either a Crump/Colt design or visa versa.   Because it is, with additional advice from others like Tillinghast, Flynn, Wilson, Thomas, et.al.


January 12, 1913




March 23, 1913



   

[Tony_Muldoon]

What did Braid inherit at Gleneagles when the new owners brought him in?

[Anthony Fowler]

Tom, as far as Kittansett goes, it doesn't sound like a big mystery to me.  I would love to hear more about its history, but we know quite a lot.  Flynn was a hired professional that made blueprints for the holes.  Hood spent a lot of time on site with Flynn and afterward implementing their plans.  He was probably the one that got his hands really dirty and all the members knew him so it's easy to understand why his name was on the scorecard (by itself) for so long.  Wilson visited for several days, all three of them spent time together on the site, and he probably had some valuable input as well.  I would love to know more about the relative involvement of all 3 men, but I wouldn't call this a mystery.  We already know a lot about the course's beginnings thanks to some original research by people on this site.

[Ian Andrew]

I agree regarding Colt & P.V.
Everything I've read, including C & W, credit Colt with the routing.

I have all three iterations.

Crumps initial routing clearly shows 1 - 4, many of the other holes including the 18th.
Colt's plan identifies the link of 5, 6 and the inclusion of the 10th, but much of the back nine did not get used

I've always thought the attribution was excellent in this case.

Ian

[Tom MacWood]

Tom:

By what measurable metric are you defining credit?

The overwhelming majority of the accounts I've ever read of Pine Valley's creation notes Colt's involvement, for example.

The club histories note his involvement but only credit him with designing the 5th hole.

[Kyle Harris]

Tom:

By what measurable metric are you defining credit?

The overwhelming majority of the accounts I've ever read of Pine Valley's creation notes Colt's involvement, for example.

The club histories note his involvement but only credit him with designing the 5th hole.

At which point were these published? I am understanding the point of this thread to indicate mysteries as of today in 2011.

Furthermore, you haven't answered the question yet. How do you measure attribution and what is done in the case where specific involvement or contributions cannot be identified but through speculation?

[Tom MacWood]

Tom, as far as Kittansett goes, it doesn't sound like a big mystery to me.  I would love to hear more about it's history, we know quite a lot.  Flynn was a hired professional that made blueprints for the holes.  Hood spent a lot of time on site with Flynn and afterward implementing their plans.  He was probably the one that got his hands really dirty and all the members knew him so it's easy to understand why his name was on the scorecard (by itself) for so long.  Wilson visited for several days, all three of them spent time together on the site, and he probably had some valuable input as well.  I would love to know more about the relative involvement of all 3 men, but I wouldn't call this a mystery.  We already know a lot about the course's beginnings thanks to some original research by people on this site.

Creating blueprints may indicate he designed the holes or could indicate Wilson (and/or Hood) designed the course and Flynn converted rough plans to blueprints. Ross did not make his blueprints. At the time Kittansett was designed Flynn was better known as construction man. I'd like to know more about the course's history too. I do know historically the club had credited Hood with the design.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom:

By what measurable metric are you defining credit?

The overwhelming majority of the accounts I've ever read of Pine Valley's creation notes Colt's involvement, for example.

The club histories note his involvement but only credit him with designing the 5th hole.

At which point were these published? I am understanding the point of this thread to indicate mysteries as of today in 2011.

Furthermore, you haven't answered the question yet. How do you measure attribution and what is done in the case where specific involvement or contributions cannot be identified but through speculation?

There have been three histories, the most recent, written by Finegan, being in the last few years.

[Tom MacWood]

What did Braid inherit at Gleneagles when the new owners brought him in?

Did the old owner engage Colt (or Colt & Mackenzie)?

[Tom MacWood]

I have all three iterations.

Crumps initial routing clearly shows 1 - 4, many of the other holes including the 18th.
Colt's plan identifies the link of 5, 6 and the inclusion of the 10th, but much of the back nine did not get used

I've always thought the attribution was excellent in this case.

Ian

Ian
If I remember correctly who actually made that initial routing is a matter of speculation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

There are probably more mysteries than we know of.

All too often a club history is crafted from recall or selective documentation.
It's rare to find a club history where an incredible amount of due diligence was exercised.
Most likely because a member or members chose to embark on the project as a hobby or a favor to the club.

Clubs you've mentioned, plus Hollywood and others probably have undiscovered, materila facts that could fill in missing or misinformation.

For whatever the reason, there seems to be a natural resistance, a form of inertia that thwarts the introduction of new information regarding accepted club histories.

Additional research can only solidify the true histories.

[Ian Andrew]

If I remember correctly who actually made that initial routing is a matter of speculation.

Since he signed and dated the drawing - it may not be 100% conclusive - but I know where I would place my wager.