Clubhouse

[Jim Johnson]

The concept is to build a new public-access golf course, funded by a group of individuals who will receive certain playing privileges which could include free golf and preferred tee-times.

In trying to keep capital costs to a minimum, given that the green fees will be in the $40-50 range, one of the components of the plan is to build a small yet functional clubhouse, limited to approximately 3,000 square feet, on one level. The golf course site is situated some 5 miles outside of a Canadian city of some 200,000 people. Questions arise...are space-consuming locker rooms and/or showers necessary? What about club storage for the 35-40 investors/members? One thought is to do away with a "pro shop" and a CPGA pro, and go with a small merchandise area near the front entrance serviced by a check-in desk combined with the bar facing the opposite direction and an open lounge, all manned by a couple of employees. There will be no corporate tournaments, we'll let other courses chase that business while we cater to their "regulars" that day. Thus, no large dining area, and no cart staging area. The course will be easily walked, with limited cart traffic.

Keeping in mind that certain areas, as mentioned, can take up substantial room (i.e. locker room, etc.), what would you like to see in this clubhouse, given the above parameters?

[Jeff Shelman]

I think it would be good to put one shower and a little changing area in the men's restroom.

There are times when a player will want to take a shower before heading to an event or the airport or something.

I don't think you need a full locker room, but one standup shower would be good.

[Richard Choi]

I don't know why you would need shower and changing area if 90%+ of your clientele is coming from 5 miles away.

Unless you are building a "destination" golf course, shower is an overkill.

[Jud_T]

Keep it to the bare necessities..Sandwiches, beer, balls, tees, a few shirts and socks etc...A TV maybe...

[jeffwarne]

I don't know why you would need shower and changing area if 90%+ of your clientele is coming from 5 miles away.

Unless you are building a "destination" golf course, shower is an overkill.

Correct
no one is going to bypass your golf course because you have no shower
a restroom is sufficient to change if absolutely needed
you're on the right track-simpler the better
why 3000 feet?
how about 20 x 20 with a staff office
bar checkin and proshop all one room

[Dean Stokes]

You certainly don't need bag storage. I have yet to see a private club in the UK have one let alone a public course.....it has to be the biggest waste of space i have ever seen at golf clubs....what is the trunk/boot of your car for if not a golf bag?

I would also throw the idea of sandwiches out. In fact any perishable items - sandwiches, fruit etc - will generally result in lost revenue.

You need an area to put shoes on in and a small bar area, somewhere to sign in and handicap computer so everyone can fix their handicaps for the next mem/guest!

[Mac Plumart]

Take it for what it is worth, but I think Palmetto's clubhouse is damn near ideal for something like you are talking about. 

[Jim Johnson]

Take it for what it is worth, but I think Palmetto's clubhouse is damn near ideal for something like you are talking about. 

Mac, please elaborate.

Thanks.

[Duncan Cheslett]

Take it for what it is worth, but I think Palmetto's clubhouse is damn near ideal for something like you are talking about.  

Mac, please elaborate.

Thanks.

He must be taking the piss...



Why though, I've no idea. It seems a perfectly good proposition to me.

A small club near me has a very basic clubhouse - simply a prefab building which has been added to over the years...





Such simple facilities doesn't stop it being a vibrant and enjoyable club...




... FOR GOLF!

I too, am puzzled by the apparent ubiquitous need for club lockers. Most people - myself included - seem to keep their clubs in the boot of their cars. The only person I know who really needs a locker is a guy at my club who cycles to the course every day. He is also the only guy I know who really needs the showers!

[Doug Siebert]

I don't think showers or bag storage are necessary, but its not like once built the clubhouse couldn't later be expanded if there is demand for these things.  Just do the layout with this in mind and you could do a little off-season expansion down the road if it proved necessary.

[Sean_A]

Jim

I think a small locker room (maybe 15 lockers), a few showers and a few benches to get changed is always useful for a clubhouse (very low cost on a new build).  Very basic walk up to the counter (no waiter service) and order a dog, burger etc and beer with maybe five tables (for four persons), much like a halfway house.  It would be nice if there was an outside area with a few tables as well.  A small pro-shop probably the size of the catering area (not including the kitchen), but I would try to make it very attractive to enter and be in.  You may want to consider contracting a pro or two to offer lessons rather than stand behind the counter.  An office big enough to do the job.  Thats about it.  

Tobacco Road's house is pretty good, but it doesn't have a locker room (a mistake I think).  The best I have seen which nearly matches your model is http://www.wildwoodgreen.com/homepage/start_page.php  Give them a call and see if they can email plans/pix of the house.  Its done very simply, but very well.

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

Kitchen 20sqm
Cellar for beer and storage, coolers etc. 20sm
Office area 20sqm
Open plan bar area with bar area dualing up to sell the green fees, merchandising (basics), food, beverage. 140sqm
Mens changing room  30sqm
Mens toilet area including a shower 15sqm
Ladies changing room 20 sqm
Ladies toilet area including a shower 15 sqm
Circulation area 20sqm.

Basic building 30m x 10m is best, the bar sat centrally, you dont waste much circulation area. A Shower is essential though.

[Jon Wiggett]

Jim,

unless you think you are going to generate a decent amount of income from the clubhouse then why have one? Many of the private members clubs in the highlands have small clubhouses that only open for busy summer days and this is with several hundred members.

Clubhouses are expensive to run as you need to Fit them out, insure & pay tax on them, staff and stock them. I would suggest the break even threshold would be around 50-60 golfers a day.

If you don't think you are going to have a big turnover then why not just going with a vending machine for snacks and drinks as well as toilet facilities.

Jon

[Ben Stephens]

Jim,

I would plan the clubhouse in phases primarily to fit for future expansion purposes and in keeping with the original architectural intentions (aesthetics and materiality). Start off with the minimum requirements and plan ahead where the expansion would be and leave these areas as blank canvas (grasssed areas). This is a more sustainable approach when money is available or the course is successful which is the main priority at first then you can expand which is a sign for golfers that the club is going well.


Cheers
Ben

[Mac Plumart]

Hey Jim...

Regarding my Palmetto comment.  As cool as the old clubhouse is there, I was refering to the new one.  The one to the left in the photo.

It is a very modest building in size.  Frankly, I have no idea the dimensions...sorry.

You walk in and you are in the pro shop.  Maybe it is 10 feet by 20 feet (random guess).  Tee shirts, golf balls, stuff like that...nothing crazy.

Off to the left you've got a bar and grill area.  Maybe 4 tables that seat 4 people each and a small counter that serves basic food and beverages.  Burgers, dogs, and cokes.  Things like that.  And they have a restroom attached as well.

In the back you've got a very small locker room.  With actual lockers for the members.  Very well done.  Wooden lockers.  Cool stuff...but pretty small.  Again, I am sorry that I don't know the dimensions.  But it doesn't have the living room/dining room area that some locker rooms have.  You don't hang out in this locker room, you change your clothes.

The really neat thing about Palmetto's clubhouse is they have a room off the pro shop that has really cool golf memorabilia.  Golf balls that Hogan used, gutties, bramble pattern balls, old photos, hickory clubs, signed flags, etc.  Really cool and sets the tone for the nature of the club and centers the golfer on what the club is all about.  Golf!

Other than hang out in that modest clubhouse, you can do one other thing at Palmetto.  Golf. 

I really like it.

[D_Malley]

The Clubhouse at Lederach is small but very functional
Lederach is a municipal course outside of Phila.

Picture
http://www.montgomerynews.com/content/articles/2010/04/18/souderton_independent/news/doc4bc54b77cd3941317101661.jpg

[Brent Hutto]

For the members at my club, if there were no bag storage you'd have about 75-100 extremely irate members. Many of whom would shortly be former members. And it needs to include 3-wheeler storage which expands the space needs right considerably. And of course it requires staffing to put those bags out and stow them away again each day.

All of which I'd rather do without and save the space and wages. But I am not representative of the "core golfers" at my club. And I do not think our club is unique, at least in the USA.

[Carl Rogers]

Get Professional help!

Utilities  - connect to municipal sewer or septic field?? perc testing??

Food service - a lot of money tied up in that basic programmatic decision.  The food service equipment is only half the total cost of it.   The Board of Health Dept will be your partner.

[Jeff Shelman]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks that one shower in the bathroom isn't a horrible idea.

[Adrian_Stiff]

I think the main principle to remember is you need effectively a proshop/food and beverage area. The double up means the pro serves the beer, the sandwich, takes the green fee, deals with customers and club buisness. If your course is busy then you should be able to make a bit of money with a modest food facility, the burger and frie type of thing that just rquires 1 person. You need an offie to to store the facts and files etc etc. I would have 2 mens toilets, 3 urinals, 3 ladies toilets and a shower in each, a shower takes up 1 sq metre. The key is the design to make the building function, you need to enter centrally, going in on the end wastes circulation space, its best to get an architect look at it for you and as Ben stated, think of this as phase 1, your buisness might want to grow so it needs to be extendable from your existing areas, let the kitchen and office touch initially, your kitchen could grow into the office ventually and y put an office somewhere in the new build.

[Jud_T]

No sandwiches? You can't expect guys to play 36 holes with nothing more than a granola bar. 

[Dan_Callahan]

Build a great course. Plop down a nice rustic shack off the first tee for the pro shop. At the turn and off 18, have one of these:



That's the kind of club I would join.

[Brian Marion]

All the answers are at your fingertips but you won't get a consensus here, too many opinions based on a wide cross section of golfers from around the world, different markets and their needs/wants.

Your answer lies in 1. What do your regular "investors/customers" want need, how will they spend their time there and what are their playing habits? If they want to show up play golf, then leave, then you don't need showers and card tables. However, if it's going to be a bit of home away from home, then you may have to consider those things, along with an area for food. Do they plan to play mostly this course and no others, then yes, bag storage may be a consideration but if they play all over and this will be one of several places, then no to the storage.

2. Since it's to be a public access course, you won't need showers or lockers either. People use their cars for that. Minus the showering part of course!

3. What's does your business plan show as the clubs core mission? If it's good, pure golf and no frills to detract from the enjoyment of the game, stick with it and pass on the "extras".

Bottom line: listen to your core investors/customers who will use the place most often and stick to your mission. Place your emphasis on the course, it's conditions and the playing environment.

I've never heard anyone wanting a replay on a course with bare greens that just got punched and sanded but have a great set of showers!

[Duncan Cheslett]

Surely what all of us really want is a great golf course with a great pub at the end of it!

[Roger Wolfe]

Palmetto Club is a perfect model.  However... you definitely want a bar of some sort that doubles as a hot dog/nabs/cold sandwich counter.  Cannot lose money with liquor and beer.

Crystal Downs golf shop is a great example.

Four Streams in the DC area is another smart setup.