We claim to like firm and fast conditions, but have you ever really experienced

[Sean_A]

Doug, the last thing I want to do on a golf website is argue....however I played golf in Great Britain for 20 years and never once saw greens as hard and fast as Seminoles greens (except for in January when we were on temporary greens and the frost was down). Never. Again that is not a knock on Seminole just a fact.

I fact I would follow that up by saying I have played golf now for 30 years and have only ever putted off the green twice in my life.....both times at Seminole.....once on #11 and once on #13.

Dean

I tend to agree with you.  I have seen radically f&f not more than a few handfuls of times.  This isn't surprising since most courses have fairway watering and wouldn't risk taking the course close to the edge if it can be helped (though often times the way to ease this is stop cutting).  Mind you, that isn't when the courses were at their best.  Almost invariably the fairways get too quick for the greens and the balance is lost.  There has to be a a workable medium in which the course isn't on the edge, but is still providing an excellent playing surface without stupidlt high maintenance costs.  I strongly suspect that any course balanced at the speed and firmness you seem to be suggesting is way out there in terms of a maintenance budget.  Is this the case?

Ciao 

[Garland Bayley]

...
What are the firmest greens you've ever played ?
What's the culture of the membership at that club ?
And, were the conditions a product of the weather or at the direction of the membership ?

Why build a private course with fast and firm and let the membership muck it up?
On the left coast we make the publics fast and firm. Bandon Dunes Resort. Chambers Bay. Wine Valley. Even, dare I say it, Sandpines has rock hard greens.

[Joe Grasty]

I experienced very fast and firm conditions at Grapevine Golf Club on Saturday.  I visited places on the golf course I'd never seen before (both good and bad, but mostly bad).  If I'd had control of my golf ball, I would have loved it, but as it turned out, I didn't.  The course kicked my ass.

[Carl Nichols]

When I lived in Argentina two years ago, they had a drought for part of the time.  Several of the courses I played had (at most) a center-line irrigation system.  Not only were the greens absolutely rock hard, but it was really hard to even take a divot in some places.  But it was completely manageable because they didn't keep the greens lightning quick, plus the courses just weren't that hard. 

Seminole sounds fun but exhausting.

[Dean Stokes]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

[Garland Bayley]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

IT'S FAIR! EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY THE SAME CONDITIONS! GET OVER IT!

[Carl Nichols]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

IT'S FAIR! EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY THE SAME CONDITIONS! GET OVER IT!

How about:  Is that good design/maintenance? 

[Garland Bayley]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

IT'S FAIR! EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY THE SAME CONDITIONS! GET OVER IT!

How about:  Is that good design/maintenance? 

Every bit as good as putting a pond in front of a soft green to catch all my mishits.

[Dean Stokes]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

IT'S FAIR! EVERYONE HAS TO PLAY THE SAME CONDITIONS! GET OVER IT!

Sorry I used the wrong word Mr. Bayley......fun? good design? great design but terrible course conditioning for layout? playable (remember the 7th green at Shinnecock?). You pick.....

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, I was fortunate to play Seminole and Pine Tree both within a week of when you played. To answer your question, i believe Ballyneal, as it was playing last August, is the fast and firm equal of both courses.  BN may take fast and firm a step further than either of them.

For example, at BN it is often difficult to tell where the fairway ends and where the green begins.  The fairways run almost as fast as the greens.   Unlike Pine Tree, you run the ball on to the green on every hole but the par 3's. And even on the 3's, you can hit short of the front and bounce it in. Also at BN, the high handicapper and the low handicapper alike can choose the ground over the aerial approach.

The course was developed and built to be fast and firm. The owners, the architect and the super did and do everything possible to make the course play fast and firm. The people who join totally buy in to fast and firm. As evidence of the culture, the motto is "Get down with Brown".


Mike,

It was good to see you at Pine Tree.

Ran and his partner had us 4 down with nine to go, and with me 3 putting # 17 the match ended up all even.
That three putt still annoys me as a 1-up victory would have been savored for years to come.
And, while a tie might be like kissing your sister, a tie when you're 4 down with 9 to play is like kissing a hot date.
Fortunately, large quantities of alcohol finally cheered Ran up at dinner.

I'm going to have to get out to Ballyneal.

I've heard so much about it and I really do love those conditions as long as green speeds don't get out of hand.
 
Stay well

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

Dean,

After the green's response to my bunker shot on # 1 I began looking at the greens a little more carefully.

For the most part, they're quite large.

Some of the smaller ones have ample open room in front.
However, if the approaches aren't maintained as F&F, then, I'd agree with you about unfair conditions.
But, holes like # 9, with a comparitively small green has plenty of unimpeded run up area short, and no bunkers to the rear, and, the approach shot is a short iron/wedge in most cases.

# 1 is a large green as are most of the others.

While it's true that downwind shots to front hole locations on greens with fronting bunkers can be difficult, fortunately, the course is designed such that a particular wind does not unduely change the overall tactical balance of the course.

Downwind, # 5, # 12, # 14 and # 17 present difficult challenges with front hole locations, but, only # 5 and # 17 are in the same direction.  And, downwind, all holes play much shorter, allowing the golfer to hit a more lofted club, or a more controlled pitch and run or punched iron.

More than anything, as that great idiot-savant has said, there has to be the ideal maintainance-meld.
And, I think you get that with these conditions at Seminole.

My only caveat would be that the green speeds can't be allowed to cross the threshold from fast to goofy.

Once green speeds get too fast, when combined with those firm conditions and the wind, the course can become overwhelming and yes, somewhat unfair.

When I played there last, the green speeds were just right.  Fast, but not too fast.

I think we're heading in the same direction, namely, that the maintainance-meld, the architecture and the conditions have to be in harmony, and if they are, it's a spectacular course and experience.  If they get out of whack, it can become an unreasonable challenge.

[Dean Stokes]

Pat, some courses are designed to be firm and fast and are playable in the sense that the front of the greens are open for a ball to be run up on....lets face it if you have to land the ball 30 yards short of the green to stay on the green then you need that. So if you are playing a course that is firm and fast (in fact lets say rock hard), and you have to fly the ball onto the green, many times down wind, is that then fair? No matter how you play a hole, no matter what angle you leave in, you cannot stop the ball on the surface because of the design.....what good is that?

Dean,

After the green's response to my bunker shot on # 1 I began looking at the greens a little more carefully.

For the most part, they're quite large.

Some of the smaller ones have ample open room in front.
However, if the approaches aren't maintained as F&F, then, I'd agree with you about unfair conditions.
But, holes like # 9, with a comparitively small green has plenty of unimpeded run up area short, and no bunkers to the rear, and, the approach shot is a short iron/wedge in most cases.

# 1 is a large green as are most of the others.

While it's true that downwind shots to front hole locations on greens with fronting bunkers can be difficult, fortunately, the course is designed such that a particular wind does not unduely change the overall tactical balance of the course.

Downwind, # 5, # 12, # 14 and # 17 present difficult challenges with front hole locations, but, only # 5 and # 17 are in the same direction.  And, downwind, all holes play much shorter, allowing the golfer to hit a more lofted club, or a more controlled pitch and run or punched iron.

More than anything, as that great idiot-savant has said, there has to be the ideal maintainance-meld.
And, I think you get that with these conditions at Seminole.

My only caveat would be that the green speeds can't be allowed to cross the threshold from fast to goofy.

Once green speeds get too fast, when combined with those firm conditions and the wind, the course can become overwhelming and yes, somewhat unfair.

When I played there last, the green speeds were just right.  Fast, but not too fast.

I think we're heading in the same direction, namely, that the maintainance-meld, the architecture and the conditions have to be in harmony, and if they are, it's a spectacular course and experience.  If they get out of whack, it can become an unreasonable challenge.

I would not disagree with any of the above. If the greens are kept from just going over the edge it is one of my favorite courses anywhere. There are some holes that just stick out for me......#4 is a classic....#6 is a classic, I just wish it was 50 yards longer so that you really have to shape driver up there - the second shot is an all time beauty. I like #7 especially the tee hot into the wind. #12 is a great hole especially the second shot which is usually a wedge that has to be precise and #17 is for me one of the best par 3's anywhere. There is not a bad aspect about that hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dean,

I think you've hit the nail on the head, there's not a bad hole out there, irrespective of the direction of the wind.

While I love all of the holes you mentioned, there's something I find special about # 10 when the wind is out of the north and the hole is cut back right.  It's one of the most frightening approach shots in golf.

Even downwind or with no wind, that hole, with a back right hole location is incredibly intimidating.
And, if you play safe, to the right side of the green or short of the green, those putts and those chips to that hole location are horrifyingly intimidating.

# 17 has to be the smallest large green on the planet when the wind is up.

It's just a very special golf course, wide, not overly long, just fun and challenging.

I think it may be the most user friendly course, that presents a considerable challenge, that I've ever played.

Certainly it's one of those courses you want to play EVERY day, especially with winds from varying directions and different velocities.

Ross outdid himself.

[Bill_McBride]

Pat, I was fortunate to play Seminole and Pine Tree both within a week of when you played. To answer your question, i believe Ballyneal, as it was playing last August, is the fast and firm equal of both courses.  BN may take fast and firm a step further than either of them.

For example, at BN it is often difficult to tell where the fairway ends and where the green begins.  The fairways run almost as fast as the greens.   Unlike Pine Tree, you run the ball on to the green on every hole but the par 3's. And even on the 3's, you can hit short of the front and bounce it in. Also at BN, the high handicapper and the low handicapper alike can choose the ground over the aerial approach.

The course was developed and built to be fast and firm. The owners, the architect and the super did and do everything possible to make the course play fast and firm. The people who join totally buy in to fast and firm. As evidence of the culture, the motto is "Get down with Brown".


Mike,

It was good to see you at Pine Tree.

Ran and his partner had us 4 down with nine to go, and with me 3 putting # 17 the match ended up all even.
That three putt still annoys me as a 1-up victory would have been savored for years to come.
And, while a tie might be like kissing your sister, a tie when you're 4 down with 9 to play is like kissing a hot date.
Fortunately, large quantities of alcohol finally cheered Ran up at dinner.

I'm going to have to get out to Ballyneal.

I've heard so much about it and I really do love those conditions as long as green speeds don't get out of hand.
 
Stay well

Pat, Ballyneal really does play very firm, even in the heavy rains we encountered last June. 

But I think a conscious effort is made to keep the greens in the 8-9 range, so it is really a lot of fun.  You can use some skill in the short game shots and putting on the huge, well contoured greens, even when everything is very firm

[Dean Stokes]

We were sat in a clubhouse in Florida several years ago having a discussion about favorite golf courses. The inveitable questions regarding your last/favorite/everyday golf course all came up....there was a gentleman there who I know is a member at several top 10 USA clubs, and several others! He was quite adamant that Seminole was the answer to all those questions. I didn't fully understand it back then but I have begun to now!!!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Perhaps Ran's 2000 write up will help.

I suspect that he may update this profile.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/seminole-golf-club

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

I will never forget playing the Ailsa course at Turnberry in the mid 1970's with my father. I was a teenager at the time and the entire UK was experiencing an extreme drought. Your drive would run and run and run and run forever.

My favorite memory was easily reaching the par five 17th in two and holing a five foot eagle putt.

Nowadays, when the British open comes to Turnberry  I always remember remember my experience while watching the pros navigate that hole.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Here's what I don't understand.

Seminole and Pine Tree don't overseed and the playing surfaces are more than adequate to accomodate all level of golfer's games.

Why are those clubs the exception and not the rule in South-East Florida ?

Is it due to the subsoils ?

Is it due to the need for "green" thanks to TV ?

When I was involved in a project in South-East Florida an elderly member asked me why he should vote for the project.
I asked him if he'd like to drive the ball 10-20-30 yards further.  He said, "of course". So I said, "then vote for the project"

So, the question remains, why wouldn't every club want to see their members get MORE yardage on their drives, woods and irons by transitioning to F&F, starting with NOT overseeding ?

I guess I look at the exercise or decision like I look at food.
Do you want something that looks good, or something that tastes good ?

To me, that brownish, yellowish, greenish tinge looks great to me and it plays great.

Yet, it seems that most golfers in South-East Florida, mostly snowbirds or snowflakes, prefer that lush green look without much roll.

WHY ?

WHY wouldn't you want your ball to go further ?

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Pat,

Come to the desert now as the courses are F&F with concrete fairways and greens. Most courses are in great condition. I played Raven@Verrado outside Phoenix last week and the greens were in the 12-13 range. The fairways were firm and the ball ran and bounced all over.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Steve,

I was watching a little of the replay of the Phoenix Open and noticed the roll in the fairways.

I think it's easier for desert courses to achieve F&F because the club, not Mother Nature, usually dictates the amount of water the course gets and the humidity tends to be low.

It would be nice if the announcers would focus on F&F and the benefits to the average golfer.

[Adam Lawrence]

Not overseeding is much easier on low traffic courses. The problem for busier venues is that winter and spring is typically peak season. If you put thousands and thousands of rounds across a golf course that isn't growing then conditions will quickly suffer.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Not overseeding is much easier on low traffic courses. The problem for busier venues is that winter and spring is typically peak season. If you put thousands and thousands of rounds across a golf course that isn't growing then conditions will quickly suffer.

It seems to work well at Seminole and Pine Tree and both are fairly busy from Nov to June.
Pine Tree probably has more cart traffic too.

With the number of rounds down significantly at almost every course, wouldn't this be the ideal time to not overseed ?

[Wayne Wiggins, Jr.]

Here's what I don't understand.

Seminole and Pine Tree don't overseed and the playing surfaces are more than adequate to accomodate all level of golfer's games.

Why are those clubs the exception and not the rule in South-East Florida ?

Is it due to the subsoils ?

Is it due to the need for "green" thanks to TV ?

When I was involved in a project in South-East Florida an elderly member asked me why he should vote for the project.
I asked him if he'd like to drive the ball 10-20-30 yards further.  He said, "of course". So I said, "then vote for the project"

So, the question remains, why wouldn't every club want to see their members get MORE yardage on their drives, woods and irons by transitioning to F&F, starting with NOT overseeding ?

I guess I look at the exercise or decision like I look at food.
Do you want something that looks good, or something that tastes good ?

To me, that brownish, yellowish, greenish tinge looks great to me and it plays great.

Yet, it seems that most golfers in South-East Florida, mostly snowbirds or snowflakes, prefer that lush green look without much roll.

WHY ?

WHY wouldn't you want your ball to go further ?

"Is it due to the need for "green" thanks to TV ?" is the answer. 

When I played last, my father and a friend of his joined us.  Geezer, as we call him (the friend), is a recreational, public-course golfer... he didn't know Seminole from a hole in the ground.  After the build-up my father and I gave to what Geez was about to experience, i'm not sure if he didn't think we were a bit nuts.  Now, I was marvelling to my Dad how fun it was to play on this surface, very firm... fast... and decidely brown.  Geezer didn't get it... i'm sure he still thinks we were joking with him about how high Seminole is held in the world of golf.  He said it's maintained like the local public he plays, and with all the money that they "supposedly had here you think they could've used the hose once or twice".  I think our host overhead this discussion, at one point, and quipped... "they like things a bit brown around here".

So, yes.  At places where the membership/players aren't hard-core, dyed-in-the-wool golfers, then green = good.  brown = poo.

WW

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Pat,

To more directly address the questions you pose...

The fastest and firmest conditions I have ever encountered in the US were at Merion, Apawamis, and Stanwich. Some of these punish doubly with severe slopes.

Weather is always a factor but in general the clubs like to cultivate the lightning fast and firm feel and the members get used to it. I like to drop my golf balls on the practice green and by the sound they make on impact I get an idea of what I am in for.

I agree with you entirely that for an outsider there is a period of adjustment that may not occur before the round is over and often you are licking your wounds in the clubhouse thinking about how you might adjust your game for the next time around.

By the same token, I also wonder how the members of those clubs adjust when playing elsewhere to be successful on slower surfaces. I am thinking that normal speeds are as disorienting to them as the the lightning fast speeds are to the rest of us.

Personally, I love to be punished by a golf course. That breeds respect and when things eventually click, a sense of triumph.

[Adam Clayman]

Pat, I find it boils down to ego. The average player thinks it's cool to have a 2" deep ball mark on a green. They love the predictability of having their ball finish within a few feet of where it returns to earth. They hate rub O' green scenarios that F&F usually supply. They hate to have to think past "stock 8 iron". The don't know how to figure out the thump and they certainly don't know the difference between a nice Tawny and dead grass. That's why!

You really do need to travel to some of the courses that emphasis F&F like Ballyneal and Kingsley.