Should Tiger play more golf with Bubba?

[jeffwarne]

Week after week we hear the experts drone on about how Tiger's "close" or working on this or that with his mechanics.
Most recently they say he's "in transition" and today it was he's playing "golf swing" rather than golf.
Certainly it appears he plays the game with less instinct and feel than he ever did
(EDIT- he just said in his post round interview that "he's gotta shape shots too")
and most obviously, he doesn't make every 10 footer he looks at.

I'm sure Bubba's not working on swing changes when he plays/practices.

Perhaps when Tiger does rebuild #4 his guru will stress feel and imagination and less mechanics.
Could all the "changes" take away from short game work and feel emphasis.
Also, if you're constantly thinking your swing isn't quite "right" doesn't that undermine confidence?

[Travis Dewire]

Jeff,

Maybe he should play more with Bubba!!

When playing golf, at any point in time, it is extremely difficutl to turn that "switch" off, and focus your mind soley, and entirely on, nothing.

Tiger's rebuild is not so much a "rebuild" as they were with Butch, and Haney. If you watch the footage from 06 to 08, Tiger's arm plane at the top shallows out, his wrist is bowed, and his take away is more outside and around his body. His take away still maintains the outside around his body feel (evident by club outside hands at hip high - a one pice take a way), but his left arm is more connected and across his chest, and not so much out. From being more "inside" (but still outside, aHA!) he can rotate his shoulders on a steeper plane, allowing the arm plane to be higher and match the ball better, and his left wrist remains more sqaure. From this improved position, Tiger relies less on "pure body trapping" of the ball, and can work the ball much easier, most noteable his missed left to right shot. His release will not need to be as hard (in contrast to McDowell with a very closed, shut, and flat plane at the top).

I think these are minor changes for Tiger to make, and you will see some success shortly. His play was great the first two days, but the weekend was another story. I'm not sure if the changes will hurt his short game or not. I would say that those, all body, closed stance bunker shots, are not going to work in the long run. But it is Tiger. His one plane flat swing, didn't work, so he went kept the ideas he liked from that "swing style" and has applied it towards a new direction, with Foley. Tiger is a smart man, and he knews where he wants his golf game to head. If something is not working right, or has been neglected, Tiger knew yesterday. If only such things could be said about his life off the course...oh well.


Agreed, that his biggest problem is the difference between playing golf, and swinging golf. I don't think the changes are too demanding of Tiger, to not have won at the end of 2010, or this week. Tiger has proven he can win when he is playing "golf swing", but I think the pressures of his off course affairs have had a greater affect than we realize. When things off the course are not going according to plan, the questioning, and tentative mind is much more overactive on the course. IMO

[JMEvensky]

That's an interesting point.

I'd bet a lot of guys try to play practice rounds with those guys whose games they admire for different reasons.Who wouldn't benefit from watching Ben Crenshaw putt or Seve Ballesteros hit bunker shots?

The odd thing is that TW was probably the guy everyone wanted to practice with.Now,maybe TW is the one who could benefit from watching someone else.

[Tom Birkert]

Tiger and Bubba practice together a lot. Tiger's stated the reason for this is that Bubba can hit shots that he can't, including ridiculous amounts of movement on the ball.

[jeffwarne]

Tiger and Bubba practice together a lot. Tiger's stated the reason for this is that Bubba can hit shots that he can't, including ridiculous amounts of movement on the ball.

It takes speed to create tremendous movement-Bubba's got that.
It's just great to watch
Good to hear Tiger does play with Bubba (I'm guessing on the days when Bubba's not with Phil).

[Andy Mitchell]

I have a number of good friends who play on either the PGA Tour or Nationwide Tour.  They said that at one point in his golf career, Bubba Watson could only play a duck hook.  Apparently he taught himself to play golf by hooking wiffle balls around his house.  He is an unbelievable athlete with an extraordinary touch.  He doesnt have a swing that lends him to being a constistently dominant player though.

I agree with the commentators... Tiger's swing does look close to being right on, although the follow through seems a bit forced.  I would bet he's just playing "golf-swing" and not golf.  Once he gets comfortable with the swing, he'll be just fine.  His short game hasn't been as sharp since he's spent so much time focussing on the full swing.  If you look at his stats, the putting has really been what has held him back.

[Jim Tang]

I'm sure Tiger will return to being Tiger at some point this season.  He showed flashes at the Ryder Cup and at his own end of the year event.

I think Tiger's biggest worry should be the younger generation of PGA tour stars.  These guys hit it a ton and are FEARLESS.  Bubba is just one example.

[Carl Rogers]

But does Bubba or anyone else really want to hang out or tee it up very often with TW?

[cary lichtenstein]

Tiger needs to learn how to hit the ball straight. Something is seriously wrong with the basics of his swing for him to struggle so much with his driving accuracy. R we seeing the beginning of the end, perhaps. His short game has gone bye bye as well

[Dean Stokes]

I don't think any of his issues are to do with technique or swing issues.....heck Tiger used to win with no idea where it was going on just one leg! His short game is not great right now and he is not holing everything which to me suggests his mental approach is not back yet.
Considering what he has been through in the past year I would think he is still getting his life back on track....kids not around much, moving house, chasing new women!!! Even if he tells the tv cameras his head is clear could you honestly believe that. Tiger will be back to winning ways when golf is his only focus again.....and maybe that will be never.....but golf is more about head than swing and he DID have the best head in sport.

[Bob_Huntley]

When I watch Tiger playing these days it reminds me of a Greek tragedy.

One of the Gods has shown an Achilles heel.

I am thinking of those unbelievably long putts that won tournaments in the last rounds. The US amateur of many a year ago is foremost in my mind; latterly the putt to tie Rocco at Torrey Pines in the US Open. His amazing length off the tee does not faze the young bombers of today, in fact they are amused that he cannot hit a fairway when needed.

The hubris of yesteryear is replaced with frustration.

Bob

[RJ_Daley]

I agree with Bob and Shivas.  I think Tiger's edge was his unbelievable mind to focus and will a putt in the hole first, and defeat the competitor in his tracks.  His mind is too cluttered now, and may never get cleaned up.  

It is odd that what was true a few short 2 years ago has come to pass, when we had the suggestion that morphed into an unfortunate interpretation of words, where someone wondered what some of the young guys had to do 'to' Tiger to beat him.  It was like the young guns had no chance unless something extraordinary had to happen to cut him down to the calibre of the other top upcoming talents.  Well, that perfect storm came, and it whittled the one aspect of Tiger's make up that was his superior asset.  His game competition mind got polluted and distorted, and cluttered up with too many internal thoughts and elements of doubts, and he now is showing weak mindedness.  Now, when Tiger is in close early competition with one of these young phenoms who can really belt the ball long, or work it wide and cleverly, Tiger no longers sneers and wills himself to overcome them and leave them in the dust.  He now has doubts, and they no longer have fear... and that seems to me to be the great deflator and tarnishing influence of the once golden child.

PS., My thought on Jeff's original question about playing more with Bubba to get back to that 'feel' rather than mechanic mindset, I'd say only if Bubba abuses him.  What I mean is not to copy the feel manner of play in the loosening up the creativity or working the ball all different ways sense (Tiger can already do that in his repetoire, even if it is suppressed right now).  What he needs is a guy that pushes him in private who rips on him, can challenge him with all the creative shots and powerball, even if not as consistent as Tiger, but mentally chide him and goad him until the ruthless killer Tiger must come out to defend, then dominate.  If Tiger can't find that someone that can relate to him in that truly no mercy challenging way, then I don't think he can get back to old Tiger dominating and winning. He needs sort of the 'Herb Brooks' challenging punishing harsh mentality as a guru, and a private playing companion that has no mercy or awe of him, when he plays practice rounds. 

[Garland Bayley]

I agree with Bob and Shivas.  I think Tiger's edge was his unbelievable mind to focus and will a putt in the hole first, and defeat the competitor in his tracks.  His mind is too cluttered now, and may never get cleaned up.  

It is odd that what was true a few short 2 years ago has come to pass, when we had the suggestion that morphed into an unfortunate interpretation of words, where someone wondered what some of the young guys had to do 'to' Tiger to beat him.  It was like the young guns had no chance unless something extraordinary had to happen to cut him down to the calibre of the other top upcoming talents.  Well, that perfect storm came, and it whittled the one aspect of Tiger's make up that was his superior asset.  His game competition mind got polluted and distorted, and cluttered up with too many internal thoughts and elements of doubts, and he now is showing weak mindedness.  Now, when Tiger is in close early competition with one of these young phenoms who can really belt the ball long, or work it wide and cleverly, Tiger no longers sneers and wills himself to overcome them and leave them in the dust.  He now has doubts, and they no longer have fear... and that seems to me to be the great deflator and tarnishing influence of the once golden child.

PS., My thought on Jeff's original question about playing more with Bubba to get back to that 'feel' rather than mechanic mindset, I'd say only if Bubba abuses him.  What I mean is not to copy the feel manner of play in the loosening up the creativity or working the ball all different ways sense (Tiger can already do that in his repetoire, even if it is suppressed right now).  What he needs is a guy that pushes him in private who rips on him, can challenge him with all the creative shots and powerball, even if not as consistent as Tiger, but mentally chide him and goad him until the ruthless killer Tiger must come out to defend, then dominate.  If Tiger can't find that someone that can relate to him in that truly no mercy challenging way, then I don't think he can get back to old Tiger dominating and winning. He needs sort of the 'Herb Brooks' challenging punishing harsh mentality as a guru, and a private playing companion that has no mercy or awe of him, when he plays practice rounds. 

Come on Dick. What you are proposing would never work with Bubba and Tiger. Tiger needs to play more with Rory S. Let Rory chide him a bit. We might see the Tiger of old real quick that way.

[Sam Morrow]

Tiger and Bubba are very good friends, go to an event they are both playing in and you will see them waiting on the greensmowers first thing.

[archie_struthers]

The other guys aren't in awe anymore , they're not scared and he can't putt like he used to .....it is akin to a Greek tragedy in many ways, given all the twists and turns of the journey.

His putting stroke looks different ....he's moving around awful quick and just looks uncomfortable . Not good for the long run. 

[PThomas]

yes he should...they say its good to play with guys who are winners/those who play better than you

[Mark Buzminski]

What I too notice, like some previous posters, is that more than the swing issues, Tiger is simply not the putter he once was.  He used to literally go whole tournaments missing NOTHING inside 9 or 10 feet.   When I watch him over 6 footers now, you just get the sense he is not confident, that he is afraid of missing, which, leads to, well, more missed putts.  I truly believe the seeds of doubt were planted in that PGA at Hazeltine, where Tiger missed putts in clutch situations that he previously would have made.     I think the putter is a larger issue than the swing, frankly.

[PThomas]

What I too notice, like some previous posters, is that more than the swing issues, Tiger is simply not the putter he once was.  He used to literally go whole tournaments missing NOTHING inside 9 or 10 feet.   When I watch him over 6 footers now, you just get the sense he is not confident, that he is afraid of missing, which, leads to, well, more missed putts.  I truly believe the seeds of doubt were planted in that PGA at Hazeltine, where Tiger missed putts in clutch situations that he previously would have made.     

Mark - i wonder if its his nerves/if they are shot (temporarily?  permanently?)  due to the events starting last Thanksgiving...

[Terry Lavin]

Bubba should play more golf with Tiger, not the other way around.

Bubba Watson just won his SECOND golf tournament in FIVE YEARS.

Tiger had a tough year last year and he will continue to struggle until the new swing and a quieter mind work in concert.  Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch Watson, who plays unlike just about anybody else on the flatbelly tour, what with his ability to hit huge cuts and monstrous draws seemingly at will.  He played great this weekend and avoided the late collapse on the final holes which plagued him at Whistling Straits, where he seemed happy to be in the final group and didn't need to win.  Players win on the pro tour repeatedly because they have a strong mental focus AND a great game.  Bubba Watson hasn't shown the former and he's barely scratched the surface of the latter.

[PThomas]

Bubba should play more golf with Tiger, not the other way around.

Bubba Watson just won his SECOND golf tournament in FIVE YEARS.

Tiger had a tough year last year and he will continue to struggle until the new swing and a quieter mind work in concert.  Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch Watson, who plays unlike just about anybody else on the flatbelly tour, what with his ability to hit huge cuts and monstrous draws seemingly at will.  He played great this weekend and avoided the late collapse on the final holes which plagued him at Whistling Straits, where he seemed happy to be in the final group and didn't need to win.  Players win on the pro tour repeatedly because they have a strong mental focus AND a great game.  Bubba Watson hasn't shown the former and he's barely scratched the surface of the latter.

Terry - of course i was being sarcastic with my above remark...I meant to put in the wink emoticon but its not working for me today..

I seriously do wonder about his nerves ...but with all his talent i find it hard to believe that he wont win more majors...

[Terry Lavin]

Bubba should play more golf with Tiger, not the other way around.

Bubba Watson just won his SECOND golf tournament in FIVE YEARS.

Tiger had a tough year last year and he will continue to struggle until the new swing and a quieter mind work in concert.  Don't get me wrong, it's fun to watch Watson, who plays unlike just about anybody else on the flatbelly tour, what with his ability to hit huge cuts and monstrous draws seemingly at will.  He played great this weekend and avoided the late collapse on the final holes which plagued him at Whistling Straits, where he seemed happy to be in the final group and didn't need to win.  Players win on the pro tour repeatedly because they have a strong mental focus AND a great game.  Bubba Watson hasn't shown the former and he's barely scratched the surface of the latter.

I seriously do wonder about his nerves ...but with all his talent i find it hard to believe that he wont win more majors...

Paul,

I was responding to the title of the thread, not your comment, which, quite frankly, I failed to read.

[George Pazin]

Tiger just needs to play more, period. Play more and practice more. It doesn't make sense to look for analogous situations with other players, imho - no one else has had his career. Jack's was similar in a lot of ways, very different in others.

I think he made a bit of a mistake years ago when he tried the "own your swing" approach, citing Hogan as a goal. His swing was fine, he needed to just keep stomping on the gas (not in a going for distance sense, just in the sense of keep doing what he was doing). Having said that, the idea that I - or anyone else on here or elsewhere - can really have anything useful to say with regard to his career is pretty silly. The guy has won 14 majors, in a more dominant fashion that almost anyone else, save a scant few - why does anyone think they know more about his game than him?

Then again, few can resist the urge to tinker with a Mackenzie masterpiece, either, so I guess it's just human nature.

[Tim Martin]

I think Tiger`s problem is mostly mental at this point and it all started around Thanksgiving 2009. Prior to that point he could hit it all over the lot and still get it in the hole. He no longer thinks he is bullet proof and neither do his rivals. Shivas makes a good point about the body starting to break down and this guy has probably put as much strain on his back and knees as anyone who has ever played. Put the two together and its clear he is presently not firing on all cylinders. That said no one should underestimate his will to win and god given talent. I think in the long run he will still eclipse Jack`s mark but its hard to say when he starts to look like the Tiger of old. He still has ten years left to get there. As far as playing with guy`s like Watson and Dustin Johnson that can only help him. 

[George Pazin]

The problem is, who do you look at as having experienced similar things?

Hogan? He didn't start winning anything until he was much much older than Tiger. He also underwent a horrific car accident.

Jack? He had a similar golf arc, but he had a stable home life. His business interests were also quite different from Tiger's - not easier, not harder, different. He also didn't have anyone to shoot for after he passed everyone else, or maybe he would've gutted out a few more.

Watson? Lost his putting touch in a far more dramatic manner than Tiger. Also never came anywhere close to the level of dominance of Tiger in almost any respect, save Open Championships.

Miller? Never was a great putter. Helluva golfer, nowhere near Tiger's class.

Palmer? Nelson? Jones? Hagen? Norman? Faldo?

My point is the sample size isn't nearly large enough to find a good number of analogous golfers. It won't be for a long time, maybe ever. And the same could be said of each of the above, in comparing them to everyone else in the history of golf.

Find me a guy who had a similar enough career and personal history to draw valid conclusions from and maybe you'll convince me. But I wouldn't bet on it.

You can guess all you want that Tiger's washed up and that the young guys aren't intimidated. We'll learn about the first part of that soon enough, probably this year, and when we do, we'll see how the second part holds up. How well did bomb and gouge work out for Phil before Tiger's knee injury? If Tiger gets even close to being the golfer he was - and I will grant that is a much much bigger if than it was a couple years ago - I'm willing to bet the other guys will start feeling a lot lot lot more pressure on major Sundays, and we'll see how well they hold up.

Btw, I don't think we'll ever see Tiger 2K again, but Tiger 2K006 was still pretty tough to beat.

Everybody has a plan until they get hit.
  - Mike Tyson

[JR Potts]

A very good friend of mine who makes some money on Tour told me last year that Bubba is one of the most perplexing guy on Tour from a playing perspective  (said he's a great guy from a personal perspective).  He relayed to me that Bubba will go out on the range before events and hit 30 yard cuts one week, hit it straight the next week and hit 30 yard draws the next week....and he just goes out any plays it without giving the cause of said ball flight any concern.

My buddy said Bubba can win 10 events one year and never make a cut the next year.  That said, given Bubba's success, I think a lot of guys should learn a little something from his game and his approach to the golf swing. 

I think there's probably a lot of "paralysis by analysis" on Tour.

But, that said, extrapolated over the last 5 years, Bubba can't told Tiger's jock.