Links Mag's Top 25 Munis

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Morgan:

The Alabama Golf Trail is owned by the citizens of Alabama -- in my mind that's a public course situation.

No doubt Lynn is attempting to further refine such a listing with other elements. However, some of those
elements are debatable -- for example, what is walkable to some is not walkable to others. Bethpage Black can
be quite tough for many people although I find it to be quite walkable for me.

Another is the "metro area" concept. Frankly, many of them are - but there are communities somewhat off the beaten path that have fine layouts -- a great example is Old Works in Anaconda, MT -- not exactly the I-95 corridor there !

The positive cash flow from operations is also dicey because it's possible that a course network which has several courses
under one ownership situation may have a situation in which one or two courses make a positive flow but it might happen
that the feartured course may not have negative flow for a host of other reasons.

I do like a dollar ceiling but $50 won't fly since many jurisdictions do charge considerably higher for non-residents to play.

Let's make the walk/ride issue simple.  If you can walk Indian Canyon as everyone did when if first opened, then you can walk most courses.  If it is more severe or too many long walks from green to tee, then it has no place being considered a good golf course.  If you cannot walk Indian Canyon please feel free to play golf but not be involved in rating munis.

[Tim Martin]

If you are going to put Richter Park and Wintonbury out there you have to mention Shenecossett in Groton Connecticut. Given 1 round between the three I would take Shenny every time. Neither Wintonbury or Richter is a bargain if you are an out of towner.

[Jeff Loh]

Tim
Totally agree with the Shenny call. Also no one has mentioned Split Rock in the Bronx. Just behind the Black and Red for top spot in NYC metro.

[Ross Tuddenham]

I think the missed Braid Hills from the list.     

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

If raters aren't taking in the munis as part and parcel of what they are taking -- they should become former raters. People who simply cherry-pick off the big ticket name courses are not really doing anyone any favors.

Andy, a good rater will have played at least half the total -- if he hasn't then frankly he needs to do some field work and catch up.

Let me also emphasize I did see the listing as more of a re-hash -- then one that is really up-to-date with others that are off the radar screen.

Tim:

Spot on regarding the non-resident comments you provided.

Lynn:

You mentioned criteria on what constitutes a muni. Frankly, your definition is quite narrow. So be it. But, I think the walking issue should not be a deal breaker -- provided walking is allowed at points in time.

In regards to Indian Canyon it's a course with 240 feet of elevation change -- walking it does require a bit of effort -- albeit certainly not herculean.

[Andy Troeger]

Andy:
If raters aren't taking in the munis as part and parcel of what they are taking -- they should become former raters. People who simply cherry-pick off the big ticket name courses are not really doing anyone any favors.

Andy, a good rater will have played at least half the total -- if he hasn't then frankly he needs to do some field work and catch up.

Let me also emphasize I did see the listing as more of a re-hash -- then one that is really up-to-date with others that are off the radar screen

Matt,
I'm all for your sentiment that raters should do more than just play top courses, however, some of the courses on this list aren't even candidate courses for the state lists. I almost forgot though that you would require raters to have played 1000 courses prior to knowing anything, so that would get rid of 99% of us anyway!

[Tim Gavrich]

If you are going to put Richter Park and Wintonbury out there you have to mention Shenecossett in Groton Connecticut. Given 1 round between the three I would take Shenny every time. Neither Wintonbury or Richter is a bargain if you are an out of towner.

I agree with this 100%  I can't believe I forgot about Shennecossett; It's definitely bette than Wintonbury and Triggs.  I've never played Richter Park myself; someday I'll get around to it.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Tim,

One thing that Triggs has on Richter is the playabilty, Richter can get a bit water logged.

I appreciate the defense of Triggs, I wish I had actually walked inside the clubhouse to check out the drawings.  I always played the course in the New England spring time and can not recall great conditions.  I have to say that I was underwhlemed by the layout and probably blinded by many of the bare lies I found in the fairway and rough (or lack thereof).  I'd love to see that course in the prime season.

To throw another in the hat for the NYC muni, Split Rock is a fun one, close behind the Red.

Anyone played Spook Rock up in Suffern, NY?  Supposed to be a gem.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Jeff - I got 13 holes in at Spook Rock before I had to leave for time reasons. I should get back, however, I wouldn't give up a round at one of the others first... You still in NZ?

[Matt_Ward]

Andy:

When course rating lists become THAT flawed it's likely the source (magazine) is no less flawed.

The information age has served to put them on their toes to be totally up-to-date on what is happening and when you come out with dated info or courses that were not that good to start with.

Andy, forget sentiment and leave aside the silly comment about having to play a minimum 1,000 courses -- but people need to do some research / homework before deciding it's fair game to pontificate about many things they don't really know.

Muni golf is very important and the mags -- far too many times -- isolate on what is happening at ANGC or one of the other more acclaimed courses. The sad truth is that most golfers don't play such places and getting more info on the places that people can do and play would be more helpful in the short and long runs.

Jaeger / Jeffrey:

SR is a fine layout by Frank Duane but it has since been past by a number of other publicly-owned layouts in the metro NY area. SR would not make a top 25 USA muni listing in my mind.

[Jeffrey Stein]

Matt,

Would love to know your Top-10 muni plays for NY/NJ/CT and maybe a top 25 nationally if you have one. 

There is Mercer Oaks in West Windsor, NJ (near princeton and the Peddie School course in Hightstown).  There is an East and West course, of which I have only played the older one.  Better than average golf here.  I would put this 36 hole facility (good chipping and putting area and grass driving range) ahead of most NY munis I have seen.  Good faciltity, less crowded, and good golf for the price.

My archive of munis is limited but here it goes NY/NJ/CT:

Bethpage Black, Bethpage, Long Island
Mercer Oaks, West Windsor, NJ
LaTourette, Staten Island, NY
Richter Park, Danbury, CT
Mohansic, Yorktown Heights, NY

For maximum enjoyment, try to get off at LaTourette as early as possible and not on a w/e.

[Tim Leahy]

I don't know how they compiled this list but Haggin Oaks Mackenzie is a dog track and would ranked second behind another Sacramento muni, Ancil Hoffman by locals. They do a big volumn of business because the rates are cheap for residents and seniors but the course is horrible. Nice pro shop and snack bar but awful golf courses.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeffrey:

My metro NYC-area would likely contain the following courses -- a 50-mile radius of NYC and including all of Long Island.

The following publicly owned courses would be ...

(in no particular order)

Bethpage / Black
Bethpage / Red
Hominy Hill
Timber Point
The Knoll / West
Montauk Downs
Heron Glen
Spook Rock or Blue Hill
Sunset Valley
Hudson Hills
Oyster Bay or Bethpage / Blue

[Jeffrey Stein]

Matt,

Thanks for the list.  I'll try to check some of them out when Im back home this summer.

Jeff