[Steve_ Shaffer]

In alphabetcal order starting with Bethpage Black and ending with...

http://linksmagazine.com/golf_courses/features/top_25_munis_intro.aspx

[Lynn_Shackelford]

What a silly list.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Cant speak for most, but at least they got the Red course on there with the Bethpage Black. Doesn't Montauk normally appear on this list as well?

[Ron Csigo]

Hi Jaeger,

Yes, Montauk has been on this type of list in the past.  Although I've never played it, how does it compare to the Red Course at Bethpage?

[Kevin_Reilly]

Haggin Oaks?  Harding...I mean TPC Harding?  If those two Northern California courses are representative of the national listing, then I agree with the smooth swinging southpaw from Westwood.

As an aside, the amoeba bunkering in this picture makes me cringe, to be honest (I haven't played the course so my apologies for the review by aerial):

[Matt_Ward]

Top 25 Munis in the United States 
Bethpage State Park (Black)
Bethpage State Park (Red)
Butterfield Trail Golf Club
Chambers Bay
Chaska Town Course
Crandon Golf
George Wright Golf Course
Gold Mountain Golf Club (Olympic)
Haggin Oaks Golf Complex (MacKenzie)
Indian Canyon Golf Course
Indian Wells Golf Resort (Celebrity)
Laurel Hill Golf Club
Memorial Park Golf Course
North Palm Beach Country Club
Papago Golf Course
Piñon Hills Golf Course
Shepherd's Crook Golf Course
Soldier Hollow Golf Course (Gold)
Soule Park Golf Course
ThunderHawk Golf Club
Torrey Pines (North)
Torrey Pines (South)
TPC Harding Park
Triggs Memorial Golf Course
Wintonbury Hills Golf Course

The list that Links created comes from the rounding up of the standard places that have moire of a connection to the distant past than contemporary times.

In NJ -- Hominy Hill and The Knoll could both be mentioned and be inserted as substitutes.

People speak about Montauk Downs -- a fine layout but the conditioning side of things is often inconsistent.

Where is any course from the Alabama Golf Trail ?

Or how about Firecliff at Desert Willow -- town course of Palm Desert, CA -- like I said the list presented is with old names -- some of which I would retain -- while others would be replaced by more contemporary places.
 

[PCCraig]

Haggin Oaks?  Harding...I mean TPC Harding?  If those two Northern California courses are representative of the national listing, then I agree with the smooth swinging southpaw from Westwood.

As an aside, the amoeba bunkering in this picture makes me cringe, to be honest (I haven't played the course so my apologies for the review by aerial):

That's Thunderhawk, a RTJ, Jr. design north of Chicago. It's actually a pretty nice course using old forest preserve land with no homes. However, I have come to enjoy nearby Shepherd's Creek (also on the list) more.

[Wade Whitehead]

Stories on "municipal" golf courses always include a photograph of a golfer wearing tube socks up to his knees, usually dragging a pull cart and wearing two gloves.  Cracks me up.

WW

[Jim_Kennedy]

I don't know how anyone could get worked up reading a list like this one. I may be wrong, but I don't know of a corp of raters that specialize in visiting munis. The value of it is more related to reminding people that there are good municipal courses than it is to pure architecture.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

There are people who "specialize in visiting munis" -- I know I try to always include them whenever I head out the door to various locales.

Appears to me the list was more a quick meshing together of usual suspects and not much probing beyond the surface level stuff.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

There is no set definition of a muni, but for me there is a perception of what a muni represents.

I would rather see a list of courses that have a green fee of $50 or less, are located in a metropolitan area, are walkable and give "pleasure to the greatest number."
Maybe one other rule.  The course has to have a positive cash flow from operations.

Now touting courses that fit the above criteria would bring recognition to places that grew the game and are needed in the future if golf isn't going to totally disappear.

[Jaeger Kovich]

Hi Jaeger,

Yes, Montauk has been on this type of list in the past.  Although I've never played it, how does it compare to the Red Course at Bethpage?

Not sure yet, its on the short list for this summer, especially since I just picked up a new copy of The Evangelist yesterday. I was just curious since its almost always on the muni and public lists

[Jaeger Kovich]

I would rather see a list of courses that have a green fee of $50 or less, are located in a metropolitan area, are walkable and give "pleasure to the greatest number."
Maybe one other rule.  The course has to have a positive cash flow from operations.

This is a good idea. Although it probably needs to be a cover story on golf digest for people to notice it

[Morgan Clawson]

Matt Ward,

Good call on the RTJ Trail.  I would put any of the Trail courses I have played over Chaska Town.  

Maybe they didn't include them since those courses are sort of joint venture between an Alabama Retirement Union of some sort (maybe teachers), state land, and some private land donations. So, maybe they are not munis in the purest sense.

[Matt_Ward]

Morgan:

The Alabama Golf Trail is owned by the citizens of Alabama -- in my mind that's a public course situation.

No doubt Lynn is attempting to further refine such a listing with other elements. However, some of those
elements are debatable -- for example, what is walkable to some is not walkable to others. Bethpage Black can
be quite tough for many people although I find it to be quite walkable for me.

Another is the "metro area" concept. Frankly, many of them are - but there are communities somewhat off the beaten path that have fine layouts -- a great example is Old Works in Anaconda, MT -- not exactly the I-95 corridor there !

The positive cash flow from operations is also dicey because it's possible that a course network which has several courses
under one ownership situation may have a situation in which one or two courses make a positive flow but it might happen
that the feartured course may not have negative flow for a host of other reasons.

I do like a dollar ceiling but $50 won't fly since many jurisdictions do charge considerably higher for non-residents to play.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
You may visit munis, but I don't think there is a cadre of raters that is anything similar to the ones whose 'job' it is to collect data for the other 'Top 100' lists.


Lynn,
I'd guess there are some on the list of 25 that are downtown and downscale in their fees, especially for locals.
Three that are: George Wright in Boston - $35 wkdy, $39 wknd, $10 juniors;  Wintonbury Hills, not quite downtown but it is $35 wkdy, $40 wknd, $12 juniors; Triggs Memorial -  $40



 

 

  

[Melvyn Morrow]

Kevin

That photo of the course you published in your #4 shouts to me of stagnated of an active mind which has become totally frustration with his nightly jigsaw and has decided to inflict his pain upon the rest of us. Pity, I feel it would have been a better marketing ploy just not to have bothered and left the design to another.

It’s difficult to judge unless one has played or walked the course but my comments are base solely upon the photo, however if fails to inspire, there are no rear hazards that jump out at you or persuade you the take a little longer to think of the course and plan the approach shots to the pin. In fact perhaps for the first time I see a point for the long drive, the wham, bam thank you Mam mentality, although I must in all fairness reserve my full judgment until I see the course face to face.

As for anyone’s Top 25 Munis, I have to say that taste and the game of golf differs greatly in this day and age, I would find it difficult to want to name 5 let alone 25.

As this is a DG on GCA, I thought that you may find my comments of interest.

Melvyn

[Jeffrey Stein]

The inclusion of Triggs surprises me.  Although a Donald Ross course I would doubt how much he had to do with this one.  I used to play this course regularly in college for golf matches.  It was always on our list for worst conditions we played all year.  The best part was the $10 dollars in meal money we were allotted just to make the trip.  I'm guessing ithe poor conditions have to do with a lack of funding from the city and an outdated irrigation system.

A far better entry would be Richter Park in Danbury, CT.  A very fun municipal track bordering a large reservoir on the front and back nine.  Resonable green fees, even for out of county (~$50) and always in great shape.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeffrey,
Richter is now $87 wkdys and $97 wknds. It's $50 at twilight but the time varies, and no one I know has ever been able to finish 18 unless the weather was so bad that it kept people away. They do have better rates in the shoulder seasons. 

[Mike Cirba]

Boy, George Wright is really, really good, and Wilmington (NC) should be on there as well.

[Tim Gavrich]

The inclusion of Triggs surprises me.  Although a Donald Ross course I would doubt how much he had to do with this one.  I used to play this course regularly in college for golf matches.  It was always on our list for worst conditions we played all year.  The best part was the $10 dollars in meal money we were allotted just to make the trip.  I'm guessing ithe poor conditions have to do with a lack of funding from the city and an outdated irrigation system.

A far better entry would be Richter Park in Danbury, CT.  A very fun municipal track bordering a large reservoir on the front and back nine.  Resonable green fees, even for out of county (~$50) and always in great shape.

I have to defend Triggs here a bit.  I played in a few junior tournaments there and found the conditioning to be pretty good and the design to be particularly good, all things considered.  Ross' original drawings of each hole are hanging in the restaurant and, as I recall, almost all of them are quite accurate to the current holes, for what it's worth.

[Matt_Ward]

Jim:

I don't "may visit" munis -- I do visit them as a companion item when traveling. There are other raters who do likewise when making visits. You'd be surprised to know that often times the real desire is to play such places because they don't come with the big budgets and all the rest of the hoopla.

Jeffrey:

Richter Park is a fine layout but it would not make a top 25 USA listing in my mind. I've played it a few times and it does have a few holes of note. I always liked the dog-leg right par-5 12th, to name one hole of note.

[Mike Cirba]

Count me as one who ALWAYS will visit the munis when I visit a city.

I'll make a special trip...ALWAYS.

I may be the only person ever who played George Wright in a misty afternoon rain after playing Myopia Hunt in the morning.

[Andy Troeger]

I think Eastwood GC in Fort Myers, Florida deserves mention on a thread like this. I think its a little behind Pinon Hills, equal with Butterfield Trail, and better than Papago out of the courses on the actual list that I've seen. Chambers Bay is in another class from any of those...

Matt,
Its great that you (and Mike) try to see municipal courses, but I think you're in the minority even among raters or those on this site that travel frequently to play golf. How many guys on this site do you think have played 15 of the 25 courses on the list? I've only played four...with a few of the others on my "to-do" list.

[Jeff Loh]

Triggs blows away Richter....sorry.

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