Sugarloaf Mountain, Now and Then

[John_Conley]

Thanks for the update, Pete.  A little more optimism?  Fingers crossed.

[John Kavanaugh]

Thanks for the update, Pete.  A little more optimism?  Fingers crossed.

John,

Why did you play Sugarloaf so infrequently?

[Kris Shreiner]

Pete,

Thanks for the assessment. It's a shame that property is just that bit too far from the golfing heartbeart of Orlando. While certainly not a shining example of C&C's work, it wasn't a bad golf course.  The uneven conditioning and presentation, along with the economic free-fall, have probably been the principle factors leading to poor playing numbers. Given what it cost to build, folks driving and then paying above-average daily fee rates have reasonable expectations that simply weren't/aren't being delivered.

If that recent $20.00 rate is accurate, that sounds the final nail being driven into the coffin. At least until another undertaker is found that may want to pump some embalming fluid(money) into the place and make a go of it.

To me several things conspire to make Sugarloaf a difficult success opportunity. It is not an exceptional golf course. The golfing folk in the immediate area won't spend for the rate pricepoint that place needs to survive. The housing that was purported to be the underpinning of the project is mere tumbleweed acreage, and will be, for a long time. Can't really see the place emerging a winner with any model.

I will say that they spent SERIOUS money on tree installation and irrigation at Sugarloaf. Numerous clusters of oaks, with drip lines visable, are found throughout the perimeter of many holes. While somewhat difficult as a piece of ground, wiith proper maintenance, it could be a faily good members course...but NOT there.

Cheers,
Kris

[Tom Ferrell]

Sugarloaf was built to operate under a high-end private model, with a housing community and a membership structure that would provide the funding to maintain the golf course to the standards under which it was ordered, designed and constructed.  Had the project been devised as a $40 daily fee, that golf course never would have been built, certainly not by C&C.

I played it once, at one of the heights of one of the conditioning crises.  I loved the layout and am happy I saw it (I did the same with Apache Stronghold and feel the same way).

I hope they can find an owner.  I know that C&C would love to have the opportunity to send one of their guys in and clean up the design - and alter it where necessary to match a viable business model.

But not all projects drawn up with an entirely different set of micro and macro-economic projections are going to make it in the new normal.  Sad, but true.

[Bryan Izatt]

Kris,

Just in case you were doubting the offer, here it is (was).  Two years ago I paid $59, last year it was $39, both are well under the usual rate for the Orlando area.  The conditioning the last two years was as good as other more expensive courses closer to Orlando.  So, I don't think it was a price vs presentation issue.  Nor do I think it was a unexceptional design issue as you seem to imply.  I'd be curious as to what you found lacking in the design.  The main issue was that it's just too isolated and the club wasn't designed or delivered to be a "destination".  When the housing component collapsed I think the course's fate was sealed.  There are only so many of us who are willing to search out and get to superior courses when they are as off the beaten path as this one.  For the casual Orlando golfer or tourist golfer it is just too far off the grid.

Victoria Hills looks like a good deal too and it doesn't look like it's going away any time soon.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Pete,

Thanks for the assessment. It's a shame that property is just that bit too far from the golfing heartbeart of Orlando. While certainly not a shining example of C&C's work, it wasn't a bad golf course.  The uneven conditioning and presentation, along with the economic free-fall, have probably been the principle factors leading to poor playing numbers. Given what it cost to build, folks driving and then paying above-average daily fee rates have reasonable expectations that simply weren't/aren't being delivered.

If that recent $20.00 rate is accurate, that sounds the final nail being driven into the coffin. At least until another undertaker is found that may want to pump some embalming fluid(money) into the place and make a go of it.

To me several things conspire to make Sugarloaf a difficult success opportunity. It is not an exceptional golf course. The golfing folk in the immediate area won't spend for the rate pricepoint that place needs to survive. The housing that was purported to be the underpinning of the project is mere tumbleweed acreage, and will be, for a long time. Can't really see the place emerging a winner with any model.

I will say that they spent SERIOUS money on tree installation and irrigation at Sugarloaf. Numerous clusters of oaks, with drip lines visable, are found throughout the perimeter of many holes. While somewhat difficult as a piece of ground, wiith proper maintenance, it could be a faily good members course...but NOT there.

Cheers,
Kris

Rates have hovered between $29-59 the past couple years.  General conditioning (fairways, bunkers) has been a big problem this year due to the lack of an operating budget.  I'll also say the condition of the fairways has been in decline since they started winter overseeding, except for the greens which have significantly improved.  This isn't because of the overseeding as much as removing all the oaks surrounding the greens to improve sunlight and airflow.  There were literally 3 people on the maintanence crew over the past 18 months, including the greenskeeper!

As mentioned there were a lot of reasons for the decline.  The biggest is the maintenance which was caused by the erosion issues I previously mentioned and losing the greens in winter 2010.  Say what you will about the architecture of Orlando courses, but most local courses have greens in good to excellent nick for high season.  When you have a course that doesn't have good greens, that is a big deterrent for the locals and tourists alike.  And while the greens have been well maintained lately, they are still on the slow side so the contouring doesn't pop as much as it should.

Kris - I'm curious what you meant by "tree installation".  The property already had all those oak trees and none were planted to my knowledge.  In fact many have been removed since the course opened as it's difficult to grow grass underneath them.  I'll certainly agree the design isn't first rate, but it was much better in its first year than the current incarnation.  I'd argue the original course was a Doak 4-5, which is higher than nearly anything else in the area.

Pete

[Don_Mahaffey]

It is another course that makes me think it would be best operated as a family business where Pop took care of the outside and Mom took care of the inside. Wouldn't spin any cash off for investors or a management company, but run right, could probably provide a stable living for a hard working family. Problem is, the owners would never give it away, even though it would assure that if and when the economic world turned around, and the lots had value again, at least there would be a golf course. Although the circumstances are different, it reminds me a bit of High Pointe in that there is no doubt its a high quality course, yet it will probably just go back to native after a while. I'll never understand why the guy at High Point didn't just give somebody a long term $1 lease instead of letting the investment just vaporize. I'm sure there is some sane business reason, but my simple mind hasn't found it yet.

[Mike Hendren]

Found this quote in a post I made on August 5, 2008: 

"C & C's Sugarloaf Mountain perhaps has impeccably poor timing in one of the nation's toughest housing markets in what at first blush appeared to be a relatively remote location."   

Unfortunately, the writing was on the wall before I opened my trunk. 

Bogey

[Kris Shreiner]

Bryan,

No doubting Thomas here , just amazed it reached that low a number. Desperation can lead to almost anything. Your distance factor call concurs with my opening line and probably is the biggest drawback to potential success there with the private member model gone.

Pete,

On reflection, many of those oaks appeared to have been long established. I seem to recall some staked-size that may have been planted. There WAS a ton of irrigation about them, though it looked non-functional in the main.

Cheers,
Kris

[Jason Connor]

This is too bad to hear, I live in SE Orlando and it took nearly an hour or more for me to get up there.

I hope it escape bankruptcy in some form so the course is playable.

I remember thinking even before the housing bust that I can't believe anyone would live way out there and work in Orlando.

[Bill Vogeney]

Terrible to hear. Lived in Orlando for 14 years from 87-01, and looked forward to playing this place at some point in time. The course is remote and no easy way to get there quickly. That didn't help it when trying to book golf around the PGA Show the last few years when I had to get out of the show quickly and get to a course just as quickly.

Bill Vogeney

[Tom_Doak]

Although the circumstances are different, it reminds me a bit of High Pointe in that there is no doubt its a high quality course, yet it will probably just go back to native after a while. I'll never understand why the guy at High Point didn't just give somebody a long term $1 lease instead of letting the investment just vaporize. I'm sure there is some sane business reason, but my simple mind hasn't found it yet.

"Sane business reason" were never the forte of the guy who owns High Pointe today.  He decided not to lease it out to an operator because he was afraid a lower price point would diminish the course somehow.  [How that would diminish it more than abandoning it, I never figured out.]

[Howard Riefs]

Pete,

Any update about the fate of Sugarloaf Mtn?

[John Percival]

Had the opportunity to play SM in its first year. Remember that the drive from Orlando was not short, and further away than Bella Colina. As BC was supposed to be a housing project and sold almost no lots (and, I believe, preceded SM), how could they expect to have moved any real estate at SM? Thought there were many good holes, but there was a lack of continuity in the design. And the conditioning then was terrific.

Also, though many people love undulating properties, that site was borderline extreme in some spots. Hell, #18 was a 460 yard par 5 (from the tips) because it was so uphill.

[Pete Buczkowski]

Pete,

Any update about the fate of Sugarloaf Mtn?

No good news to share I'm afraid. They let the pro go earlier this year, who was the one keeping it afloat.

[Howard Riefs]

Pete,

Any update about the fate of Sugarloaf Mtn?

No good news to share I'm afraid. They let the pro go earlier this year, who was the one keeping it afloat.

Thanks for the update, Pete.  Sad to hear that.

[John_Conley]

I played the C&C course at Streamsong two weeks ago.  Many times I reflected back to similarities with holes or features at Sugarloaf.  It is a crying shame the course is NLE.  Only made it out there 3 times, but it was pretty darn good.

Certainly sits on a great site with some awesome terrain.

[Eric Strulowitz]

I am very sorry that this course and housing development have not succeeded, but my question is what were the original developers thinking in the first place.  It does not take an Ivy League MBA to figure out from day one that this project would end up the way it did.  

It is literally out in the middle of no where.  There are no surrounding restaurants or shops around.  Getting there from Orlando is a chore.  There are so many courses in the immediate Orlando area, why would someone want to make this trek, and if they did, they would not make a habit of it.  I drove by this site recently , all I could do is shake my head and ask myself "what the heck were  these investors  thinking"?


Bella Collina just down the road is a  spectacular property.  I wonder if this course and facility equally will make it in the long run, I certainly wish them all the success.  The facilities are elaborate like I have never seen, how will these costs ever get recouped, that is a real puzzle to me.    And the course as far as I am concerned was fun, but a once and done for sure.  The bunkering is beyond silly.  What the heck were they thinking?  

[Rees Milikin]

Stopped by on the way home from playing Mission Inn with Howard Riefs and his father (fun time and great weather), and it is just sad that this course went out of business.  Here are some pics to give a perspective on how bad it is.

The clubhouse


The driving range marker


The driving range view


The 10th tee marker


The view of the fairway from the 10th teebox


The 12th greenside bunker that still has the rakes


The 12th green


The 13th teebox that is now home to some wild melons (need to go back and get some groceries)

[Brian Finn]

That is depressing.  I remember in early 2011 I was playing at Innisbrook and some knowledgeable guys recommended this course to me.  By the time I made it back to the area, it was closed.

Does anyone know the latest on ownership and if anyone might still be able to revive the place?  Any estimates of what it would cost to get it playable?  

I realize it is probably a lost cause, but am still curious.

[Jim Franklin]

Wow that is a shame. I am happy I was able to get down there and play it once though.

[Eric Strulowitz]

Stopped by on the way home from playing Mission Inn with Howard Riefs and his father (fun time and great weather), and it is just sad that this course went out of business.  Here are some pics to give a perspective on how bad it is.

The clubhouse


The driving range marker


The driving range view


The 10th tee marker


The view of the fairway from the 10th teebox


The 12th greenside bunker that still has the rakes


The 12th green


The 13th teebox that is now home to some wild melons (need to go back and get some groceries)

I drove by the site a few months ago, it looked run down and depressed, but had no idea it was that bad.  How sad.

A result of bad timing, and a bad location.   Bella Collina just down the road, wonder if they will survive.  Certainly wish them luck.

[Rees Milikin]

I drove by the site a few months ago, it looked run down and depressed, but had no idea it was that bad.  How sad.

A result of bad timing, and a bad location.   Bella Collina just down the road, wonder if they will survive.  Certainly wish them luck.

I wouldn't necessarily say it was a bad location, as much as it was a bad business model.  I think if they would have approached this property like Mosaic did at Streamsong, it might have worked out.  Mission Inn is only 9 miles away and is also in the middle of nowhere and is doing just fine.  Oh well, RIP.

[BCowan]

Anyone trying to purchase this place?  I think this would work great as a out of town private club Fri-Mon with public play Tues-thur.  Or just have 600 out of town members paying smaller fees.  Needed cabins for lodging. 

[Ken Fry]

There have been many opinions voiced about the course and overall project, but the view from the range and 1st tee over Lake Opopka was incredible, especially on a Florida site.

Ken