[Chris Shaida]

Am I missing some bigger joke here?  [apparently...yes, although it may be that you just, like Mr K below, just don't find it funny?]

If not, wow. [oy]

If so, it would be helpful to most to clarify. [one might check posts 2,3,4,6,9,11,12,13,14,15,17,19,22,23 for clues]

[Scott Szabo]

  Which ones are you willing to play on very short notice?

  Anthony

I would hope the answer would be ANY of them!

[John Kavanaugh]

Am I missing some bigger joke here?  [apparently...yes, although it may be that you just, like Mr K below, just don't find it funny?]

If not, wow. [oy]

If so, it would be helpful to most to clarify. [one might check posts 2,3,4,6,9,11,12,13,14,15,17,19,22,23 for clues]

Chris,

Maybe this is funny, that is a matter of taste.  What I do see it as is dangerous.  Golf is in dire need of people willing to join private clubs, and I have many rater friends who do and are.  JC not only makes a case against making the sacrifice needed to join a course, he pokes fun at those who do by outing Sebonack's purported fee.  What many of you fail to realize is the value offered by Sebonack when taking into consideration their on site housing and excellent location.  I see no difference between naming one great clubs fees from naming all eleven.

I thought this site was supposed to be good for golf and its growth but have to question why anyone who would stumble upon it would desire to join a private club when access has no more value than the content of a lame joke.  Even I am starting to feel like a rube and question the value of my private club memberships.  Well I tell you, every parasite needs a host and when one blood sucker gets a little too fat he needs to be culled to feed the rest of the horde.  You guys can laugh with JC all the way to the local muni if this is the type of behavior you support because there will be few private clubs left if things don't turn around.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I'll actually jump on your bandwagon and add 2 cents of my own.

First off, regarding JC's post and your comments regarding financial stability of private clubs.  If he pays the guest fee, it is a win-win.  No?

Secondly, and in line with the more important point, I think golf clubs might be their own worst enemy.  I've heard many, many stories of golf clubs giving away free rounds.  Maybe it is free rounds to employees on their off day and they tee off before the members.  Maybe it is friends and family of the head pro.  Whatever.  These are rounds played that aren't generating any revenue for the clubs.  Waste, shrinkage, pick your term....it doesn't matter.  The management of these clubs are giving away their product and getting nothing in return.  Not good business, in my opinion.  If a club gives away one foursome per day and, lets assume, the fee is $50 then for the calendar year that is a little less than $75,000.  I am not familiar with the economics of a golf club, country club, and the salary structure...but how many jobs could that $75,000 create?  Two, probably.  How many golf clubs in the US alone?  15,000-ish.  Isn't that 30,000 jobs potentially thrown away?

Finally, there is no doubt I am no golf industry expert...so take or leave my comments.  And maybe I am the ignorant idiot as I belong to two clubs and am looking to join #3.  Nevertheless, I agree with the sentiment of your post John.

[Jud_T]

JK,

Sebonack's joining fee is a matter of public record.  It's been published in numerous newspaper and magazine articles.  And if JC didn't have a sense of humor and generosity about his access whoring, his success would be very short-lived...

[Roger Wolfe]

Those of us who know JC understand his warped sense of humor.

I really hope the "access whore" comments are just you guys joining
in on the fun.  If your posts are intended to be taken seriously...
god bless you.

[Peter Pallotta]

John - I do think JC's thread is funny; but I also see what you're trying to say. The trouble is, if you and I feel that way we shouldn't be on this site/discussion board at all.  We should leave in protest.  I'm a big fan of excellence and of celebrating excellence -- but in the case of gca.com that very celebration has inherenet in it a dark and damaging element (albeit one with probably limited impact), i.e. that element is the sometimes overt but always implict making of "greatness' an end in itself, of making architectural excellence (and the prestige in every sense of the word that goes with it) more important than the game itself, more important than the thousands of good quality courses around the country (private and public) that provide countless millions of hours of fun and pleasure and companionship and exercise.   No one intends this of course -- but our value system around here is skewed, no doubt about it.  If we think it is skewed in a positive and healthy and sane direction, we should stay; if we think that value system is none of those things, and increasingly out of touch with more lasting and profound values, we really should leave.

Peter

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there any evidence that JC is not an access whore?  Jud mentioned his generosity in being one, what does that mean?  I don't see where hauling your own brother along qualifies when in reality it makes it worse.

I understand that JC is employed and from Michigan so why doesn't he pony up and do something for the golf world by joining Kingsley.  Maybe then we could get a little give with all the take.

[JC Jones]

John,

Sebonack's initiation fee was widely reported from Links Magazine to Forbes to Bloomberg to several threads on GCA.com.  I didn't reveal anything, though I am flattered you think I would have access to such information were it actually private.

Secondly, I got the idea for my thread from your brother-in-law's article in Golf magazine.  I assume you sent him a similar response?

I understand you're just protecting your investments but if the success of private clubs hangs on a few hundred raters an access whores then the game is in a lot more trouble than your chicken little posts suggest.

[JC Jones]

Is there any evidence that JC is not an access whore?  Jud mentioned his generosity in being one, what does that mean?  I don't see where hauling your own brother along qualifies when in reality it makes it worse.

I understand that JC is employed and from Michigan so why doesn't he pony up and do something for the golf world by joining Kingsley.  Maybe then we could get a little give with all the take.

I am from Michigan but I don't live in michigan.  Every time I have played Kingsley club I have  paid guest fees, bought merchandise in th pro shop and bought food and drink.

I'd join but I wasn't a direct beneficiary of the Obama build America stimulus plan.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Great point.  I was thinking of including Morfontaine. 

Hmmm.   Does this make me one of the "well-connected Californians" you always compliment?   If so, you are whoring on the wrong corner.

[PCCraig]

Is there any evidence that JC is not an access whore?  Jud mentioned his generosity in being one, what does that mean?  I don't see where hauling your own brother along qualifies when in reality it makes it worse.

Ask yourself the same thing the next time you play a Ken Kavanaugh course with your brother.

[John Kavanaugh]

John,

Sebonack's initiation fee was widely reported from Links Magazine to Forbes to Bloomberg to several threads on GCA.com.  I didn't reveal anything, though I am flattered you think I would have access to such information were it actually private.

Secondly, I got the idea for my thread from your brother-in-law's article in Golf magazine.  I assume you sent him a similar response?

I understand you're just protecting your investments but if the success of private clubs hangs on a few hundred raters an access whores then the game is in a lot more trouble than your chicken little posts suggest.

Joe is not my brother-in-law, my brother married his sister.  Considering all the crap I have given golf writers over the years I felt it necessary to reveal why I occasionally support his writings.

Next time I run into another friend, cause I only seem to have friends that are golfers, who has either lost their job or is worried that they soon will, which I am sure they will, I will tell them the sky really isn't falling.  Thank you.

[PCCraig]

John,

Sebonack's initiation fee was widely reported from Links Magazine to Forbes to Bloomberg to several threads on GCA.com.  I didn't reveal anything, though I am flattered you think I would have access to such information were it actually private.

Secondly, I got the idea for my thread from your brother-in-law's article in Golf magazine.  I assume you sent him a similar response?

I understand you're just protecting your investments but if the success of private clubs hangs on a few hundred raters an access whores then the game is in a lot more trouble than your chicken little posts suggest.

Joe is not my brother-in-law, my brother married his sister.  Considering all the crap I have given golf writers over the years I felt it necessary to reveal why I occasionally support his writings.

Next time I run into another friend, cause I only seem to have friends that are golfers, who has either lost their job or is worried that they soon will, which I am sure they will, I will tell them the sky really isn't falling.  Thank you.

Yeah, right. 2500 raters are putting people in the golf industry out of jobs....

Just the same way your grudge with raters runs no deeper than a few rounds of comped golf. Whatever...

[John Kavanaugh]

Is there any evidence that JC is not an access whore?  Jud mentioned his generosity in being one, what does that mean?  I don't see where hauling your own brother along qualifies when in reality it makes it worse.

Ask yourself the same thing the next time you play a Ken Kavanaugh course with your brother.

My brother did finally ask me a couple of years ago when I was going to stop flying over Arizona and stop by and see some of his work.  Try playing a course with an architect that you have shared a bathtub with and come up with an interesting comment pertaining to architecture.  I ain't easy.

In all honesty I doubt if anyone has played more great courses for free because of this website than JakaB.  Ask anybody, it's good to be me.

[PCCraig]

I assumed you were just an access-seeker dude playing an access-seeker dude disguised as an access-seeker dude.
But in reality you're just an access-seeker.
Got it.

Which courses would you add/subtract from the list?  Anything I'm missing or over valuing?

Your standards are too low

[PCCraig]

Is there any evidence that JC is not an access whore?  Jud mentioned his generosity in being one, what does that mean?  I don't see where hauling your own brother along qualifies when in reality it makes it worse.

Ask yourself the same thing the next time you play a Ken Kavanaugh course with your brother.

My brother did finally ask me a couple of years ago when I was going to stop flying over Arizona and stop by and see some of his work.  Try playing a course with an architect that you have shared a bathtub with and come up with an interesting comment pertaining to architecture.  I ain't easy.

In all honesty I doubt if anyone has played more great courses for free because of this website than JakaB.  Ask anybody, it's good to be me.

But I thought comped golf was killing the golf industry??

[John Kavanaugh]

JC,

It's not raters putting people out of jobs.  It's a lack of joiners.  I think the rater system is great as it has afforded me much access and free golf, I just would like to see more raters join clubs.  Honestly, if you are too poor to join a club than you are too poor to travel to play great clubs.

[John Kavanaugh]

But I thought comped golf was killing the golf industry??

Pat, this is simple.  I have seen a ton of young guys like you who would be a member of a course if they were not a rater.  You are a joiner through and through who was taken out of the mix by a magazine that depends on the success of private clubs.  They are cutting their nose off to spite their face in some pitiful need to get you to pony up for rater camp.  It is a sad cycle that is not helping the game.

[Jud_T]

jk,

I agree with your premise, but we're talking about 1/10th of 1 member per private club.  That's less than the amount of comped golf clubs dole out, which is entirely their choosing... 

[Niall C]

Which courses would you add/subtract from the list?  Anything I'm missing or over valuing?

Ran has worked very hard to give this site a more international flavor, so for appearances sake you really should at least feign interest in access whoring for Royal Melbourne, Muirfield, and maybe a course in Asia or Africa.  Or at least Mid Ocean or a Canadian Royal.  It is only polite, and you wouldn't want to offend anyone. 

Quite. JC - I'm disappointed you didn't mention Forres GC here in the Highlands of Scotland. I could have got you a walk on time two weeks on Sunday. You would likely have had to shovel the snow out the way to get to the first tee but at least its a genuine offer. (smiley !)

Niall

[JC Jones]

 Honestly, if you are too poor to join a club than you are too poor to travel to play great clubs.

That is not necessarily true.  Everyone has a budget for golf and is free to make their own value calculation as to what it should be spent on. 

[Ron Csigo]

Can someone please point me to the Merion thread?

[Bob_Huntley]

John...

I'll actually jump on your bandwagon and add 2 cents of my own.

First off, regarding JC's post and your comments regarding financial stability of private clubs.  If he pays the guest fee, it is a win-win.  No?

Secondly, and in line with the more important point, I think golf clubs might be their own worst enemy.  I've heard many, many stories of golf clubs giving away free rounds.  Maybe it is free rounds to employees on their off day and they tee off before the members.  Maybe it is friends and family of the head pro.  Whatever.  These are rounds played that aren't generating any revenue for the clubs.  Waste, shrinkage, pick your term....it doesn't matter.  The management of these clubs are giving away their product and getting nothing in return.  Not good business, in my opinion.  If a club gives away one foursome per day and, lets assume, the fee is $50 then for the calendar year that is a little less than $75,000.  I am not familiar with the economics of a golf club, country club, and the salary structure...but how many jobs could that $75,000 create?  Two, probably.  How many golf clubs in the US alone?  15,000-ish.  Isn't that 30,000 jobs potentially thrown away?

Finally, there is no doubt I am no golf industry expert...so take or leave my comments.  And maybe I am the ignorant idiot as I belong to two clubs and am looking to join #3.  Nevertheless, I agree with the sentiment of your post John.

Mac,

To deny employees of a club the ability to have a complimentary round of golf when the course is empty, strikes me as something from the English class divisions of the early twentieth century. I certainly hope that the employees of your three clubs are not treated as indentured servants.

Bob

[Charlie Goerges]

I'm not saying I agree or disagree with your argument here John, but could you have chosen a less sympathetic cause to champion? Was the national association of puppy mills already taken?

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