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Anthony Gray

How do you make flat land interesting?
« on: January 24, 2011, 07:30:03 PM »


  Pictures please.

  Anthony

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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 07:53:58 PM »
Call Seth Raynor and have him built you some template holes.  Frankly, I think flat land is ideal for the use of templates.  But I'd love to hear some real expert's thoughts on this.
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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Mike Nuzzo

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 08:17:10 PM »
Anthony,
Do you know how many threads there are on courses on flat(ish) property?
A lot...

Try these on for size:
www.mnuzzo.com/wpc
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Anthony Gray

Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2011, 08:21:10 PM »
Quote from: Mike Nuzzo on January 24, 2011, 08:17:10 PM
Anthony,
Do you know how many threads there are on courses on flat(ish) property?
A lot...

Try these on for size:
www.mnuzzo.com/wpc



  Thanks for the pictures Mike.What are your thoughts on making flat land interesting?I'm waiting.

    Anthony

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Anthony Gray

Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #4 on: January 24, 2011, 08:29:07 PM »


  Wolf Point looks great Mike.

  Anthony

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Bill_McBride

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #5 on: January 24, 2011, 09:30:05 PM »
Quote from: Mac Plumart on January 24, 2011, 07:53:58 PM
Call Seth Raynor and have him built you some template holes.  Frankly, I think flat land is ideal for the use of templates.  But I'd love to hear some real expert's thoughts on this.

Mac, there are several template holes that require elevation changes, and how much better it is if no earthworks are required.

I'm thinking of Valley, Sahara, Alps, Redan, Hogsback......
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Ronald Montesano

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2011, 09:32:59 PM »
isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat?  You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son?  That one and that course!
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2011, 09:44:28 PM »
Bill...I was thinking Yeamans Hall, specifically.  That site had very little elevation change, except for pushed up greens.  Even the redan seemed to just be a pushed up green with a weird angle. 

Here is the Redan...




And here is the Alps...




And Ron...I think the course you are talking about is the Jubilee course.  Duh!

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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2011, 09:52:45 PM »
nope...that one is newer...YH must be a sublime blast to play.  My only Raynor is Fox Chapel and it was a sublime blast to play...went by way too quickly.  I wish I knew then what I know now about the (Knights) Template holes.
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Coming in 2024
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~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2011, 09:53:13 PM »
I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.

Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:

Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10
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Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2011, 10:05:29 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Tricks O'Hooligan Montesano on January 24, 2011, 09:52:45 PM
nope...that one is newer...YH must be a sublime blast to play.  My only Raynor is Fox Chapel and it was a sublime blast to play...went by way too quickly.  I wish I knew then what I know now about the (Knights) Template holes.

Ron...I think Yeamans is a special, special place.  The course could be nit-picked and criticized for a variety of things, but the bottom line is that it is a great golf course/club.  It would be an absolute honor to be a member there and have the ability to golf it at will. 

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Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Steve_ Shaffer

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2011, 10:39:11 PM »
See C&C's Talking Stick North in Scottsdale:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/courses-by-country/usa/talkingstick
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Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 01:15:04 AM »
I think the question should be how did  two generations of architects fail to make interesting holes and courses on flat land. TOC was around as well as any number of Mac/Raynor courses.
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Adrian_Stiff

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 03:30:04 AM »
1. Move the soll to one side.
2. Insert bulldozer.
3. Put the soil back.
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John Shimp

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 02:21:35 PM »

Chechessee Creek is a great template for designing a tough, fun course on flat, flat land (makes Yeamans Hall look like there is a lot of undulation).  The formula I observed at Chechessee is small, push up greens, with a good and bad side to be on (short and straight is excellent at Chechessee) if you miss.  Holes that bend both ways.  Light use of fairway bunkering to dictate tee balls as its more about the dog legs and tree lines.  Lots of variation in length within the 3, 4, and 5.  Most of this is good desgin regardless of land movement but I think the small, thoughtfully protected greens and use of doglegs and treelines make Chechessee really well done for such flat land.  Lots of restraint there but a super fun place to play.  Really tough too.
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Niall C

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 02:25:11 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Tricks O'Hooligan Montesano on January 24, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat?  You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son?  That one and that course!

....er, no its not. Very little elevational changes granted but flat ? No !

Niall
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Garland Bayley

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 02:31:31 PM »
Create a pseudo-road-hole or a bottle hole.
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"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

Tim Martin

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 02:32:10 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger Kovich on January 24, 2011, 09:53:13 PM
I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.

Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:

Friars Head- 5
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10
Jaeger-Any template for WFW 10 will require the home behind it with the bedroom window in the perfect spot. On a more serious note that would be a great template hole.
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 04:13:51 PM »
Quote from: Jaeger Kovich on January 24, 2011, 09:53:13 PM
I love the idea of templating some of my favorite holes for use on flat land. I just drew the plans for what could be a long par-4 this morning... I'm unable to post photos, the button isn't working for me, sadly.

Holes I think that I would template well for a flat site/landfill:

Friars Head- 5 
Bethpage Black - 12
Winged Foot West - 10 ?  ?  ?  You need elevation at the tee and green[/b]
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Patrick_Mucci

Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 04:15:06 PM »
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Greg Tallman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 04:16:37 PM »
1. Dig a lake along the length of the left side of the hole
2. Use material to build a hig mound between fairway and green
3. Open hole
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JESII

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 04:25:38 PM »
angles and small humps.
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paul cowley

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 07:00:21 PM »
Actually Anthony its my favorite kind of dirt....just a pure palette of unrestricted routing combined with strategic design and features...at least conceptually. Its never really that way though...unfortunately.
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paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

jim_lewis

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 07:33:22 PM »
I thought Patrick might suggest elevating the greens.  His Pine Tree GC is an outstanding course on perhaps the most level site in the US. Most greens are elevated (by Dick Wilson) and most are fronted by bunkers. You will almost certainly have a level lie in the fairway, but you are then faced with the need for a lofted second shot with excellent distance control. Add the wind and you have a very challenging course. If the fairways were not level, it would be too tough for most of us.
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"Crusty"  Jim
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Wade Schueneman

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Re: How do you make flat land interesting?
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 08:40:17 PM »
Quote from: Ronald Tricks O'Hooligan Montesano on January 24, 2011, 09:32:59 PM
isn't that old course in Scotland, what is its name again, fairly flat?  You know, that one in that university town with the beat-to-shit cathedral and the graveyard with that guy and his son?  That one and that course!

TOC taught me that flat (no macro contour) is fine if there is firm turf, strategic bunkering (in the fairways) and lots of contour in AND AROUND the greens (and if at all possible, lost of wind).

Examples - 2, 12, 13, 14, 17
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