The Silver State's Best 15 ...

[Matt_Ward]

Nevada's Top 15 Courses ...

Since The Silver States has far fewer courses than CA I have created a top 15 listing. The mixture of courses includes a wider range of different golf styles -- some old and some rather new. No doubt a few that are controversial -- please for those classic types who can't stand Wolf Creek please repeat after me -- "I love quirk in Ireland & Scotland -- but can't stand it in Nevada ! Some are more on the wild side but c'mon it's Nevada !

The grouping are also reduced to three (3) courses per listing.

Let the debate begin !

(in alpha order)

1st Group

Clear Creek
Shadow Creek
Wolf Creek

2nd Group

Montreux
PGA GC at Coyote Springs / The Chase
Southern Highlands

3rd Group

Arrowcreek / The Challenge Course
Boulder Creek / Desert Hawk & Coyote Run
Incline Village

4th Group

Genoa Lakes / Lakes
Pauite / Wolf
Reflection Bay

5th Group

Genoa Lakes / Resort
Las Vegas CC
Somerset CC

*Please note: Have not played the new Gary Panks work -- Conestoga Golf Club in Mesquite.

By the way for those who are Cascata and Rio Seco fans -- I like them but not for top 15 mention. Both courses at Primm are in CA too.

No doubt there's room for discussion -- I feel more confident about my Nevada selections. Played more of them
in the state than what one can see / play from neighboring CA.

Fire away gents -- FORE !

[astavrides]

Last I heard, reflection bay NLE

[Andy Troeger]

Matt,
You did Nevada before...a couple years ago. Although I think its interesting that you had Southern Highlands #2 then and now its #4 at best (although Clear Creek is a new addition). I've always thought you put Southern Highlands ahead of Shadow Creek in your other comments.

I've only played two in NV: Wolf Creek and Southern Highlands. I enjoyed them both, but would probably enjoy Southern Highlands a bit more over repeated play especially since I was able to walk it. Wolf Creek's a blast but I wouldn't want to play it all the time.

[Jud_T]

What, no Royal Links? . Matt, wonder what your thoughts on the Wynn course is...

[Matt_Ward]

astavrides:

Forgive my error if that's the case - I believe there's an ownership group on hand now and that the course(s) are being readied for the 2011 season ahead. Maybe someone can chime in on that. If it's out of the loop I'll correct it. Thanks again.

Andy:

Good memory on your part. The last time was before the work was completed at Shadow Creek. Kudos to Adam C for mentioning about the improvements in greater detail. I still have my issues with the course - not that it doesn't provide a clearly unique situation -- but that it was rated way too high to start with.

I too like SH -- RTJ Jr did a fine job there and it astounds me how Cascata and Rio Seco seem to grab more ink. I like Wolf Creek and no doubt there will be some people who say they can only play "X" number of rounds on a place like that. Love/hate is the feelings Wolf Creek brings to the surface.

I have heard some really good things on Conestoga -- the new Panks course in Mesquite. Maybe someone can offer a comment or two on it.

Judd:

The new Wynn course is like the sequel that is way short of what Wynn did originally with TF at SC. Played it this past Fall and while it's not per se bad it doesn't set or make a compelling architect that it goes beyond what's been done already. I'd much rather recommend people head down to Boulder Creek and save the $$ with a few rounds there.

[Jason Topp]

astavrides:
 Love/hate is the feelings Wolf Creek brings to the surface.

I cannot relate to the love part of that equation.

[Brad Wilbur]

Although I am biased with it being my home course, I would rate DragonRidge somewhere in the middle of your 15 best Nevada courses.  Each hole is unique, course conditioning is as good as anything in the Southwest, and it looks as though it fits in with the topography.  Although less than 7000 yards in length, it has hosted US Open first round qualifiers the last two years;  73 advanced the first year, with 71 moving on last year.  On the other hand, it's not unusual to see members break 80 from the middle tees, so it doesn't beat up a golfer.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

Matt

South Shore at Lake Las Vegas not on your radar screen?

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Understood.

The sad part of that reality is that people fawn / gush over quirky desgns across the pond and when faced with something similar here in the States then label such courses as goof ball places and the like.

No problem -- I always knew that the classic school of design lovers would never really embrace Wolf Creek.

Lynn:

Good call -- I have played it and it's tight near the bottom of the listing. I have always been a fan of Las Vegas CC and I played the layout after some work had been done there. South Shore is on some of the most breathtaking properties one can imagine. Let me think about that because my final grouping of three courses is not set in stone. Somersett CC is a fine Reno-based lahyout that Bechtel & Russell did w Tom Kite but it's not bulletproof.

Brad:

I have played DragonRidge and it's a fine layout but I'd like to know how you would stack up the immediate Vegas-area courses. Are you saying DragonRidge is 4th behind the likes of Shadow Creek, Southern Highlands and Coyote Springs?

One final question -- be interested in knowing if you have played Boulder Creek ?

thanks ...

[Ron Csigo]

Hi Matt,

One more question about the Wynn course.  Is it more compelling then the Lakes course at Primm Valley?  Just wanted to get an idea on how the Wynn course ranks against the other Tom Fazio courses in Nevada minus Shadow Creek. 

Thanks, Ron

[Matt_Ward]

Ron,

As you know the two Primm courses are in Nipton, CA.

To answer your question --- no. The Wynn layout has its moments but far too often it's the same been there / done that from the waterfalls to the foliage that's inserted. Shadow Creek did all of that. The par-70 layout has the right location -- I mean how much closer to The Strip can one be. For me, the design elements are replicated and when you hold the course up against the other locations and design motifs -- it's just more of what's been done earlier. For the $$ -- one would be better served heading to the original in North Las Vegas.

Ron, have you played the other layout at Primm -- the Desert? Has plenty to offer as a counterpoint to the Lakes.

[Ron Csigo]

Matt,

You're absolutely right.  I completely forgot that the Primm Valley courses are actually in California.  And yes, I've played them both.  The Desert is certainly a nice contrast and compliment to the Lakes course.  They're worth the drive from Vegas, in my opinion.

As for the Wynn course, I'm in the same boat as you.  I'd play the original 10 out of 10 times.

[Brad Wilbur]

Matt,

I might place DragonRidge behind Shadow Creek, Wolf Creek, and South Shore.  You could argue you like Southern Highlands more, especially if you are more into traditional architecture, but I would place The Chase lower on my personal list.

I've played Boulder Creek several times, and it's a nice course, but can't really complete with the above group, unless green fee cost is factored into the equation.  You are one of the few who places LV Country Club on a very high pedestal.  The pond in front of the 18th green is very artifiicial--it made for some decent finishes of the PGA back when Fuzzy Z was playing--but architecturally looks pretty out of touch.  I have not been on the course since it's recent work, and I have heard they made some improvements.

[Derek Dirksen]

No mention of Laughlin Ranch?

[Derek Dirksen]

I guess technically LR is Arizona.  I always think of it as Nevada though.

[Matt_Ward]

Derek:

If you want a sleeper in the Laughlin area try Mojave Casino and Resort Course. I'm not suggesting it would make a top 15 listing but it's quite good in spots and worth checking out if you have not done so already.

Brad:

My bottom three picks are quite interchangeable -- so a LVCC can be bumped for another - depending upon prefernces, styles, etc, etc. Ditto the same for me with Somerset CC in the Reno area. The insertion of South Shore could easily fit in and I have no issue with that as Lynn mentioned.

I think you vastly underrate Coyote Springs -- the course is somewhat off the usual Vegas track in terms of location but Team Nicklaus did well with the wide array of diffreent holes and the land movement is much more natural than many that are created from the desert floor up.

In regards to Boulder Creek if you really size up the two nines I mentioned -- they hold up quite well against the likes you mentioned. The course is a bargain to play so in an indirect way that clearly is a benefit -- given what daily fee golf can cost in the immediate area. But, the design is also very good -- plenty of interesting mix of key driving holes with sufficient width to handle the blowing winds and to provide landing areas for the less gifted drivers.

Brad, what's amazing is how much more the greater Reno / Carson City areas has blossomed with different golf choices. It's moire than just C&C's Clear Creek -- they have now started to make a solid contribution to the state's total offerings.

Last item -- if you had to give DragonRidge a Doak rating number -- what would it be ?

[Derek Dirksen]

Matt, played it when we were building LR.  Not bad at all.  Cheap if I remember correctly.

[Jason Topp]

Jason:

Understood.

The sad part of that reality is that people fawn / gush over quirky desgns across the pond and when faced with something similar here in the States then label such courses as goof ball places and the like.

No problem -- I always knew that the classic school of design lovers would never really embrace Wolf Creek.

What course over the pond is similar to Wolf Creek?

[Tom Yost]

Who is the designer of the Boulder Creek courses?

[Matt_Ward]

Jason:

Clever retort -- never said a course across the pond equate exactly to Wolf Creek but the people who gush on GCA about quirk and all the funny bounces you get when playing there would find something akin to a different golf experience with Wolf Creek.

I'll say this for the upteeeenth time -- those who are classic school golf course lovers should avoid Wolf Creek -- those who want something different and fun with a slightly different twist will find their time at Wolf Creek to be memorable in many ways.

Simple as that.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom Y:

The designer of Boulder Creek is Mark Rathert.

Located, I believe, in the Colorado area.

Did an exceptional job with the 27 holes there. Gets little attention from many
who do visit Vegas.

[Kyle Henderson]

I've only played 3 courses in Nevada: Clear Creek Tahoe (Stellar), Genoa Lakes- Lakes (mixed bag), and Somerset (mixed bag). Since all three made your top 25, my assumption is that Nevada is miles behind California in depth when it comes to quality courses.

On the bright side, Clear Creek has clearly elevated the Silver's State's prospects. It would probably be a top 5 course in California, if the state line were shifted a tad.

[Tom Yost]

Tom Y:

The designer of Boulder Creek is Mark Rathert.

Thanks Matt.

Any love for Craig Ranch ?  The best I've played in the LV area.

[Matt_Ward]

Tom:

You need to play Boulder Creek -- the price is very nicely done -- and the design is quite flexible for different players.

Surprisngly, it gets little to no ink.

[Matt_Ward]

Just want to say thanks to those folks who contacted me and said Cornestoga in Mesquite is worthy of mention.

Will need to play it the next time around.

Like I said before -- the greater Reno / Carson City area has added a slew of solid layouts that now can compete.

The days of places like Edgewood Tahoe being mentioned as a prime play candidate appear to be over given the
diversity of solid places to play in the area.