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Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2011, 02:24:35 PM »
Not at all, but you do need to be aware of how a good golfer plays. Same goes the other way as well.


I think Ryan makes a good observation. The higher handicap player needs to know what landing areas, angles, and green locations the better player is striving for. Conversely the better player should also know what the options are for the higher handicap player. To properly evaluate the architecture the playing corridors have to be evaluated for players of different skill levels.

Jay Flemma

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2011, 02:31:13 PM »


  Scott Warren recently mentioned that a GCAer told him he was not a good enough golfer to have a valid opinion.Is this true?Haven't nongolfers even made their mark as architects.I've outplayed raters before as a double digit handicapper.

  Anthony



Whoever told Scott that is dead wrong.l  Do you have to be a good golfer to be an architect?  No, you don't. Mackenzie couldn't hit the back end of a mule with a yardstick.
Mackenzie, MacRayBanks, Maxwell, Doak, Dye, Strantz. @JayGolfUSA, GNN Radio Host of Jay's Plays www.cybergolf.com/writerscorner

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2011, 03:20:36 PM »
Jay,

Maybe he was 4 feet away.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Anthony Gray

Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2011, 04:34:48 PM »
How about a panel of "bogey golfers" doing ratings for Golf Digest? Diversity is a good thing these days.

  Cruden Bay wins the top spot.

 Anthony

Duncan Betts

Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 07:01:22 PM »
Duncan, before becoming a famous architect, Doak made a name for himself by writing the CG.  I think he also ran GM's golf course ratings.  i.e. he did a whole lot of evaluating, and had/has a major impact on how others saw/see the world's top-ranked courses.   

Can anyone design great courses without being able to evaluate golf course architecture?  Seems like a disconnect to me, though maybe an idiot savant type could do so.  I understood through this website that Seth Raynor either played little golf, or no golf at all.     

I was being facetious ;)

I still prefer to call them 'designers' though.  I'm not aware of any undergraduate study that allows them to refer to themselves as an 'architect'.

:D

Tim Nugent

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 07:40:41 PM »
Duncan, before becoming a famous architect, Doak made a name for himself by writing the CG.  I think he also ran GM's golf course ratings.  i.e. he did a whole lot of evaluating, and had/has a major impact on how others saw/see the world's top-ranked courses.   

Can anyone design great courses without being able to evaluate golf course architecture?  Seems like a disconnect to me, though maybe an idiot savant type could do so.  I understood through this website that Seth Raynor either played little golf, or no golf at all.     

I was being facetious ;)

I still prefer to call them 'designers' though.  I'm not aware of any undergraduate study that allows them to refer to themselves as an 'architect'.

:D
Duncan, you will find that most actually have an undergrad degree in Landscape ARCHITECURE, some with Masters in LA, while others of us went the Engineering route.  Speaking of Building Architects, how many could of their "designs" could be built without Civil, Structural, Meachanical and Electrical Engineers to impliment the "design"?  I wouldn't get so hung up on titles.
Coasting is a downhill process

Duncan Betts

Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 07:53:05 PM »
some mechanics are called engineers too.

also, please note my use of ;P

Tiger_Bernhardt

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2011, 08:50:44 PM »
No No and again No! the capacity to picture, quantify, understand shot values etc has nothing to do with skill to execute shots and manage ones emotions as well as their game in competition.

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #58 on: January 28, 2011, 01:16:15 AM »
Not anymore than one needs to be a good designer to create architecture.
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #59 on: January 28, 2011, 01:16:37 AM »
Every golfers opinion is worth 1/800th of a magazine rating.


That's why I think it's bogus for them to also rate the course from my perspective in addition to their own...and yours...

I'm late to the party, but if I play the course with my wife, and we discuss how to best play each hole for her perspective, I do get some insight into her thoughts.

I give more credence to one's imgaination than you seem to be willing to give.

Philippe Binette

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #60 on: January 28, 2011, 01:21:22 AM »
duncan betts:

I won't get started on the architecture / golf architecture / landscape architecture debate...

but there is just as much, if not more technical knowledge demanded in building a golf course than a building


That said, I would say that a tour pro or a person like that who just show up and talk about golf concepts is indeed a designer... the one that turns the concepts in reality is an architect

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #61 on: January 28, 2011, 03:18:19 AM »
It helps but no. You have to be able to visualize shots and understand the given topography and how the arch dealt with
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #62 on: January 28, 2011, 03:33:44 AM »
Must I be able to paint like Monet in order to appreciate and objectively comment on art?

That is a completely fallacious analogy, Matthew.
Why?  Not picking a side, just genuinely interested in why you think so.

Mark,

Anyone can appreciate art whether or not they have an understanding of it.

To objectively comment upon art requires a knowledge of the techniques used in its creation, but nothing more.  You don't need to have directed a film in order to be able to comment upon the direction of a film, but you need to know what good direction is.  To be an artist is to have a gift of creativity that few people have.

I've always been intrigued by songwriters who say they can't read or write music, yet they can play instruments and create music.  Isn't Paul McCartney the most famous example?
Mark,

Thanks for the answer.  I get what you say and agree.  Why, however, can't similar arguments be applied to GCA?
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Mark Pearce

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #63 on: January 28, 2011, 03:35:58 AM »
I read a chapter in a 1912 book ("To the Links", I think, compiled by HL Sutton) last night, written by Colt.  He addressed just this question and concluded forcefully that you did not need to be an expert golfer to appreciate course design.  Over the weekend and before I have to give the book back to its owner I'll try and copy the relevant bits.
In June I will be riding the first three stages of this year's Tour de France route for charity.  630km (394 miles) in three days, with 7800m (25,600 feet) of climbing for the William Wates Memorial Trust (https://rideleloop.org/the-charity/) which supports underprivileged young people.

Ben Sims

  • Karma: +1/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #64 on: January 28, 2011, 06:06:37 AM »
I won't debate this ridiculous premise except to say that everyone knows good food when they taste it.  No matter their level of cooking ability.

So do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?  No.  You just have to be a golfer. 

Shucks, I agreed with Melvyn on something.

David Mulle

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #65 on: January 28, 2011, 05:28:28 PM »
I won't debate this ridiculous premise except to say that everyone knows good food when they taste it.  No matter their level of cooking ability.

So do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?  No.  You just have to be a golfer. 

Shucks, I agreed with Melvyn on something.

I think I agree with your conclusion Ben but I don't agree with the analogy.   I think cooking skill is analogous to the ability to design a golf course.  Eating a lot is analogous to being a good golfer.

My wife was a pastry chef in some of the best restaurants in NYC and she is absolutely able to evaluate food much better than I can.  I am able to say, "I like this dish" or "I don't like this dish".   But because of her training she is able to go much deeper.  Last month I was eating a cookie from a bakery and I said that I liked it and that it had an interesting taste.  Knowing only the type of cookie and that I thought it had an interesting taste, she said to the owner, "did you use [insert spice I had never heard of] in the cookie?"  And she was right, without even having to taste the cookie.

Similarly, I would gladly concede that any of the architects here are much more skilled at evaluating a golf course than I am - they have more training and experience than I do.  But I wouldn’t make that concession with respect to the average 2 handicap (I am a 13 handicap) just as I wouldn't necessarily trust a restaurant recommendation from a fat person.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #66 on: January 28, 2011, 05:39:50 PM »
I'm definitely a scratch eater.  Being fat is just a bonus....
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Tim Martin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2011, 05:45:31 PM »
I'm definitely a scratch eater.  Being fat is just a bonus....

Insert grin

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2011, 05:52:18 PM »
Every golfers opinion is worth 1/800th of a magazine rating.


That's why I think it's bogus for them to also rate the course from my perspective in addition to their own...and yours...

I'm late to the party, but if I play the course with my wife, and we discuss how to best play each hole for her perspective, I do get some insight into her thoughts.

I give more credence to one's imgaination than you seem to be willing to give.

Perhaps.

Do you credit everybody with your level of imagination?

If your wife has developed an opinion on a course why wouldn't I just listen to her? As opposed to your interpretation of her opinion? Or even further, your assumption of her opinion...if in fact she didn't play that course but you're rating it anyway?

Why wouldn't it be more valuable for you to tell me how the course worked and didn't work for you?

Drew Standley

Re: Do you have to be a good golfer to evaluate architecture?
« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2011, 09:15:10 PM »
I think being able to execute a variety of shots certainly helps. Less important is the number you write in the box.

Drew

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