Par 2.8 holes -- Are there any?

[Carl Rogers]

Are there Short Holes that are interesting, easy & fun?

Norfolk VA, Lester George's Lambert Point Hole No. 8; 110 yards ... standing on the tee, you think you can knock the flag down every time .... if the wind is not up.

[John Kavanaugh]

Lakeside. 60yd par 3. (guessing)

[James Bennett]

Lakeside. 60yd par 3. (guessing)

John

I assume you mean 18a.  15a is more like 90 yards.

Good pick though.  Much better than 18a.

James B

[Scott Warren]

The 6th hole of the Inner course at Royal Mid-Surrey is such a hole.

A wedge or less with a birdie definately on the cards, but get in one of the flanking bunkers next to the 7-9 yards wide green and it's hell.

A really good example of what can be done with 110 yards of flat, featureless land.

[Anthony Gray]

  Pebble Beach 7 may stand out.

  Anthony

[Ronald Montesano]

I maintain that the green determines the 2.8-ness/nicity of the hole, not the length.  If the green feeds balls to pin positions, then it becomes a 2.8.  If it repels shots, the opposite ensues.

[Keith Phillips]

Bear Creek (Denver) #7 - about 95 yards downhill - a half sand wedge - a really fun hole, so long as you don't miss the green!

[Bill_McBride]

  Pebble Beach 7 may stand out.

  Anthony

I'm pretty sure the pros played #7 in last summer's U.S. Open over par.  In any kind of breeze it's not easy.

"2.8 par" means one birdie in 5 tries.  The closest I ever saw was the 85 yard 3rd hole at the old Glenbrook GC at Lake Tahoe when I worked there the summer of 1959.  Full sand wedge in those days over a huge bunker with the lake behind.  You were bummed out if you didn't have a reasonable birdie putt, but you still had to get the ball in the hole and there were some subtle breaks in what looked like a flat green.

[Kevin_Reilly]

This looks like a Par 2.75 at most (no idea what course it is):

[Mike Hendren]

Kevin, that Jim Engh's Creek Club at Reynolds Plantation.  More fun to  miss the green to either side just to watch the ball carom back and forth across the green to its final resting place.  Wtih any luck you get at least three cracks at an ace.

Mike

[Ronald Montesano]

Thanks for making my point for me with that JEngh green.

[Jim Nugent]

To answer the question of the title, there must be darn few par 2.8 holes.  Only 13 pro's on the U.S. tour last year averaged under par for par 3s.  The lowest average was 2.93.  And that was a bumper year.  In 2009 only four pro's averaged under par.  In 2008, only two.

You see why when you look at the proximity stats.  On approaches from 100 to 125 yards, the pro's average around 20 feet.  On approaches from 125 to 150 yards, they average around 23 feet.  No one is going to sink many 20 footers. 

I imagine there are plenty of interesting and fun short par 3s.  What do you guys make of the short at Old Mac, e.g.?  But I doubt many yield lots of birdies.  Even the best players in the world can't the ball close enough to do that regularly. 

[Sean_A]

Jim

I was thinking the same thing.  Usually on a quality course the par 3s are the make or break of a good round for proficient, but not excellent golfers.  So I was thinking more like par 3.2 holes.  I can't think of any par 3 that is good and easy compared to averaging 3.2 or likely higher.

Ciao

[Tom_Doak]

I really don't think there are any par 2.8 holes, even at 80 yards.

A few years back there was a big event at Stonewall -- the Philadelphia Open, I think -- and they sent me the scoring averages for all of the holes when it was over.  There are five par-3's on the Old course, and the easiest of them, #17, is only 130 yards to a small green with not much trouble around it.  It was still the sixth HARDEST hole!

I puzzled over that for a while, until I realized that it was probably the fifth or sixth longest approach shot the pros had to play there.  On even the longest par-4's -- 460 yards at Stonewall, not 500 -- they were probably hitting 130 yard approaches, and on most of them it was more like 75-100 yards, so the scoring averages on those holes were lower.

P.S.  The photo of the Jim Engh hole did not show up on my computer, so I can't comment on that one 

[JC Jones]

The "Wee-Three" at Manufacturers (Par 3, 8th hole) is the best sub 110yard par 3 I've played.

[Jim Nugent]

A few years back there was a big event at Stonewall -- the Philadelphia Open, I think -- and they sent me the scoring averages for all of the holes when it was over.  There are five par-3's on the Old course, and the easiest of them, #17, is only 130 yards to a small green with not much trouble around it.  It was still the sixth HARDEST hole!

I puzzled over that for a while, until I realized that it was probably the fifth or sixth longest approach shot the pros had to play there.  On even the longest par-4's -- 460 yards at Stonewall, not 500 -- they were probably hitting 130 yard approaches, and on most of them it was more like 75-100 yards, so the scoring averages on those holes were lower.

I've made the point several times before, but maybe bears repeating here:  in general, par 3 holes are easiest for average golfers against par, but hardest for scratch and better.  The reason is exactly as you described above.  On the converse side, par 5s are easiest for scratch and hardest for bogey. 

So if you want to make a course that can challenge top players but still be playable for the bogey golfer, put more par 3s on it. 

[Tim Gavrich]

At 118 yards from the back tee, the 9th at Caledonia is pretty close to a par 2.8-type hole, at least to some pin positions.

[Jim_Kennedy]

To answer the question of the title, there must be darn few par 2.8 holes.  Only 13 pro's on the U.S. tour last year averaged under par for par 3s.  The lowest average was 2.93.  And that was a bumper year.  In 2009 only four pro's averaged under par.  In 2008, only two.

You see why when you look at the proximity stats.  On approaches from 100 to 125 yards, the pro's average around 20 feet.  On approaches from 125 to 150 yards, they average around 23 feet.  No one is going to sink many 20 footers.  

I imagine there are plenty of interesting and fun short par 3s.  What do you guys make of the short at Old Mac, e.g.?  But I doubt many yield lots of birdies.  Even the best players in the world can't the ball close enough to do that regularly.  

Jim,
That stat doesn't take length into consideration. However, one that does is the "Birdie Or Better Pct.< 125 yds."

For a player to have a stroke average of 2.8 he only has to birdie one hole for every five played if he pars the other four holes.  If that's the case it means all players with a B or B of 20% or greater are scoring at 2.8, and in 2010 there were 163 players who did that.

I'd say it was a given that there were going to be some bogies in there, but I don't think that number will be very high as the yardage is very short and the proximity stat you posted is the best evidence, i.e. they don't make many bogies from 20 feet.
But, even if we push the number of birdies or better up to 25% to take bogies into account, that still leaves 55 players who made the 2.8 'cut'.  

Couple of examples: Ernie Els led the field (31.68%) with 64 birdies or better out of 202 attempts. Brian Gay (28.78%) had 99 birdies or better out of 344 tries.

I'd say this shows there are quite a few holes that play to 2.8 or less on Tour.  

[Mark Pearce]

Jim,

What proportion of those shots <125 are from <90?  Or <75?  Does it include birdies on reachable par 5s where the player is just off the green in 2?

I'm not sure that statistic helps at all, really.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
Conceded, to some degree, but even the 2010 Birdie or Better from 125 to 150 is impressive, and the same stat for 2011, through 3 events is, stratospherically good.

Brian Gay has birdied 5 out of ten holes from 125 to 150 yards, Maruyama is 6 for 11, Stricker is 10 for 21, etc.

.....and that's from the fairway, not from a 'perfect' lie on the tee.



  

[Mark Pearce]

Mark,
Conceded, to some degree, but even the 2010 Birdie or Better from 125 to 150 is impressive, and the same stat for 2011, through 3 events is, stratospherically good.

Brian Gay has birdied 5 out of ten holes from 125 to 150 yards, Maruyama is 6 for 11, Stricker is 10 for 21, etc.

.....and that's from the fairway, not from a 'perfect' lie on the tee.
 

Agreed that that stat has a lot of relevance and is impressive.  It suggests that that length gives real "half-par" holes.  Any idea how many bogeys those guys have made from that range?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mark,
There were 40 players in 2010 that had a 20% or greater RTP score from 100 to 125 yards.

RTP is "The average relative to par score when an approach shot is hit from a distance greater than or equal to 100 yards and less than 125 yards. The approach shot distance must be determined by a laser, and it must originate from the fairway (or the tee box on a par 3). The approach must also end on or around the green or in the hole. Note: 'Around the green' indicates the ball is within 30 yards of the edge of the green."