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Anthony Gray

What makes the Redan so popular?
« on: January 23, 2011, 09:43:37 AM »


  Why is it copied so much?

  Anthony


Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 09:57:46 AM »
Anthony...

You've played Redans before.  What did you like or not like about them?  Do you think they deserve to be copied or are they over-copied?

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 10:03:16 AM »
The dictated challenge, with substantial risk of failure.

Anthony Gray

Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 10:04:07 AM »
Anthony...

You've played Redans before.  What did you like or not like about them?  Do you think they deserve to be copied or are they over-copied?



  I like them.Even pared the original.But I'm not sure where the charm comes from.My favorite is at Chambers Bay.Shorter than most with a more severe slope.

  Anthony


Anthony Gray

Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 10:05:57 AM »
The dictated challenge, with substantial risk of failure.

  Give us more please Patrick.The original gives the player the long miss but not all duplicates are like that.Should they be?

  Anthony


Michael Whitaker

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 10:08:09 AM »
Anthony - I think it's the multitude of possible ways to play the hole and the variety of possible outcomes. They usually seem hard, but not impossible... and, give the golfer a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when played well.
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 10:19:47 AM »

The dictated challenge, with substantial risk of failure.

Give us more please Patrick.The original gives the player the long miss but not all duplicates are like that.Should they be?


Anthony,

Standing on the tee, the challenge looks extremely difficult, very intimidating.

The golfer can't see the putting surface, so doubt immediately invades their mind.

They do see the cavernous fronting bunker and it strikes fear into their heart, knowing it's a callenging carry and that failure to carry will present an incredibly difficult recovery, IF they can recover.  The right side shoulder offers no strategic solace to most golfers.
Most golfers don't understand its potential use.

Repeat play only reveals additional disaster lurking over the green since the rear bunker and everything behind the fronting ledge is invisible.

Golfers and frequenters of "Gentlemen's clubs" are visual creatures and the visual presented by the Redan invariably overwhelms the confidence in their ability to meet the challenge in front of them.

More later, I'm off to see two venues, "Solid Gold and "Pure Platinum" 



Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 10:48:23 AM »
I think they are unpopular.

A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 11:21:58 AM »
Like Adrian, I disagree with your premise. It is neither popular nor much copied.

The typical GCA'er sees a redan everywhere he looks, sometimes it may be a reverse one
"We finally beat Medicare. "

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 11:29:21 AM »
I love watching the run up shot disappear over the ridge, and then walking over the crest of the hill to see where the ball ended up.

You don't get that rush from any other kind of par 3!

Adrian_Stiff

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 11:47:10 AM »
Bill I totally disagree ...... 5th at Painswick

More seriously though, blindness is something that is seen as a minus for the masses and I think most people like the par 3 holes especially to be 'all there in front of them'.

I also think its really hard to get a really good uphill short hole. Not impossible but you need some nice features.
A combination of whats good for golf and good for turf.
The Players Club, Cumberwell Park, The Kendleshire, Oake Manor, Dainton Park, Forest Hills, Erlestoke, St Cleres.
www.theplayersgolfclub.com

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 12:43:51 PM »
In a recent topic titled "New Redans vs Golden Age Versions" there were many modern examples cited, including Ian Andrews mention of his first and Tom Doak's mention of the 6 or so he's done. Inserting the word "Redan" into the search box on this site reveals 14 pages of threads.

Calling the Redan unpopular with players and saying that the concept is sparsely used has no basis in fact. I would suggest that just going through every one of the 14 pages of Redan-oriented that exist at this site would reveal hundreds of applications of the concept in modern times, let alone all its usages in the past, and that's just information from this site. The blind holes that players aren't fond of are the ones where they cannot tell if their ball stayed on the golf course or not. That's not the case w/Redans.      

Anthony,
One of the reasons why the Redan remains in the modern architect's repertoire comes from Melyvn Morrow, even though he probably didn't mean it as such, when he said:
  
"Template all you wish, but in reality are you just producing the equivalent of the HOT ROD (old in concept new in technology)."

The concept is very adaptable, and works well, even when it's been souped up w/roller cam, a set of headers, and a close ratio Borg & Warner transmission.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 12:49:12 PM by Jim_Kennedy »
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 04:50:35 PM »
Bill I totally disagree ...... 5th at Painswick

More seriously though, blindness is something that is seen as a minus for the masses and I think most people like the par 3 holes especially to be 'all there in front of them'.

I also think its really hard to get a really good uphill short hole. Not impossible but you need some nice features.

Well yes, and the tenth too!  Great call! 

Garland Bayley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: What makes the Redan so popular?
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 11:30:39 PM »
Anthony - I think it's the multitude of possible ways to play the hole and the variety of possible outcomes. They usually seem hard, but not impossible... and, give the golfer a sense of accomplishment and satisfaction when played well.

It would seem it is much easier to give the player a multiple of options on a tee shot on par 4 and par 5 holes, than it is to give such options on the approach to the green. The redan gives multiple options on the tee shot, which also just happens to be the approach, which just happens to be an approach shot from a perfect lie.
"I enjoy a course where the challenges are contained WITHIN it, and recovery is part of the game  not a course where the challenge is to stay ON it." Jeff Warne

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