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Tim Liddy

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Great Augusta Quote
« on: January 22, 2011, 05:15:06 PM »
I was reading a great quote from Mike Bender who coaches Zach Johnson on how to approach the golf course at Augusta. It is a wonderful explanation of strategic design.

" The biggest thing at Augusta is understanding the reaction of the ball against the green's slope. Augusta greens are in quadrants", Bender said. " Being able to have the proper angle in, to where you can work with that slope, as opposed to coming in from an odd angle, where you have to land the ball absolutely perfect or you're going to have a 30 footer, that is probably the biggest thing. 

"At Augusta you can't avoid the fairway slopes. It's more about what side of the fairway you are on, hitting off that slope, into what slope on the green. That is why there is more course management in that area than at other courses. It's imperative. 

We all know the golf course well enough, how about a few favorite specific examples?

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 05:27:50 PM »
Tim,

Isn't that philosophy/strategy somewhat mitigated by the narrowing of the fairways ?

Certainly, coming into # 3 from the left side of the fairway would seem preferable to approaching from the right side.

The other thing about Mike Bender's advice is it assumes a high level of execution.
It's one thing for a PGA Tour Pro to hit to a prefered DZ, it's quite another for a 5, 10, 15 and 20 handicap to accomplish that.

Tim Liddy

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 05:35:41 PM »
Patrick,

Imagine it is circa 1980s and you are a 3.3 index. If hole location on #3 is on the shallow left side would you still prefer the left side of the fairway? It is OK to assume some golfing ability in discussing strategic design.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 06:51:47 PM by Tim Liddy »

Jeff_Mingay

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 06:38:02 PM »
Tim,

I understand the point of your queston relative to the angle of approach to a hole location on the shallow left side of the 3rd green.

Another strategic question is whether you'd want to approach that particular hole location from 70 or 120 yards? Considerations are lateral, and perpendicular (if this is the right choice of word?), which is pretty neat.
jeffmingay.com

Dan Herrmann

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 06:52:32 PM »
I'd think #7 is another hole that has had strategy ripped from it by the narrowing.

David_Tepper

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 07:15:08 PM »
I do recall reading in an article about Arnold Palmer that the secret to his success at the Masters, even though he did not hit a high ball, was his ability to know and use the slopes on and around the greens.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:28:14 PM by David_Tepper »

Bill_McBride

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 07:16:00 PM »
I'd think #7 is another hole that has had strategy ripped from it by the narrowing.

It wasn't too narrow at 355, but at 450 yards???

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 08:24:33 PM »
Patrick,

Imagine it is circa 1980s and you are a 3.3 index.
If hole location on #3 is on the shallow left side would you still prefer the left side of the fairway?

Yes, I would for several reasons.

# 1   I tended to hit high draws circa 1980, thus, I'd play right of the hole and let the slope and incoming trajectory feed the ball to the hole.

# 2   I still think hitting into that slope is a prefered method of approach as opposed to hitting with the slope.


It is OK to assume some golfing ability in discussing strategic design.

Yes, but I think you have to context it.
I don't think you can take the game of the best .0000001 percent of the golfers in the world and frame the discussion, by default, as if they represented the general population of golfers.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 08:26:25 PM »

I'd think #7 is another hole that has had strategy ripped from it by the narrowing.

Dan, I would disagree with you on that.

There really wasn't a good or bad side to that fairway.
The critical factor was hitting the fairway and then hitting a wedge to a green that didn't overwhelmingly favor an approach from any angle within the fairway lines.


Pete_Pittock

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 09:03:48 PM »
I would suppose 2, 8, 11, 13, 14, 15 have the biggest swings depending on your approach angle. I'd add #16 is they had a wide teeing ground.

Tim Liddy

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 08:53:21 AM »
Patrick,

Interesting on the high draw as that is the same shot Zach Johnson used in his win. "He practiced hitting a draw with his wedges, not 5 to 10 yards but 2 yards. If he missed the shot he wanted to miss it on the right side. That way, the ball always will be spinning toward the hole. And since most greens tilt from back to front, if he is on the right side of the hole, he's got a right-to-left putt, and most right handers are going to make more putts from right-to-left that left -to-right."

This also supports your thought on hitting perpendicular into slopes.

Now I need to go work on my 2' draw with a wedge from various slopes.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 09:30:13 AM by Tim Liddy »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 10:05:49 AM »
Tim Liddy,

I believe in the concept of courses for horses.

Certain courses seem to fit certain types of play.

I know that Lee Trevino claimed his game wasn't well suited to ANGC due to the left to right nature of his ball flight.
Whether that was the full story behind his declination to play remains unknown, but, I can see the merit in it.

ANGC seems to favor a draw, especially before the narrowing.

Michael Whitaker

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #12 on: January 23, 2011, 10:13:43 AM »
ANGC seems to favor a draw, especially before the narrowing.

Or, a left-handed fade!!!
"Solving the paradox of proportionality is the heart of golf architecture."  - Tom Doak (11/20/05)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #13 on: January 23, 2011, 10:21:19 AM »
ANGC seems to favor a draw, especially before the narrowing.

Or, a left-handed fade!!!

I can't think of many guys who play that shot as their normal flight.


Mike_Young

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2011, 05:36:26 PM »
Tim and Pat,
IMHO #3 left side is one of the top pins on that golf course....I don't why we don't hear more about it....I've always thougt the amateur would play it short of the fairway bunkers and have a go but then....maybe the play is still to the wide side no matter what unless you are fairway long left....
I really like that hole....green...
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

V. Kmetz

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 02:23:48 AM »
TL,
To answer your original question (fairway placement contour to green placement contours), here's my lineup (minus the one shot holes) and this for the professionals/cracks - unless the rest of us are playing a gentler<6500 tee...

1.  Not too much regarding contour, like #5, the demand is to get up to the flat, as close to the right fairway bunker as possible.  this is the best general opening to the maximum amount of green regardless of placement.

2.  The sheer breadth of the green is balanced by 3/4 of the fields ability to reach it in two, however the left-to-right slope of fairway as it nears the front left bunker makes you really not want to be there for a short pitch.

3.  Well-discussed, my favorite two shot hole at ANGC

5.  See #1

7.  In the 350 yard and 410 yard versions of the hole and the post Maxwell green, the side really mattered as you wouldn't want to be near the left part of the fairway, which has some swells and waves, unless the pin was on the right.  Now, even those these boys can tackle it, I think just hitting the fairway is the goal...right side is flatter though.

8. For the big boys its grip and rip off the tee, the closer to the fairway bunker the better, for both angle and quality of lie.  As we have seen and some of us have experienced in person, you know that you should not be along the left side with your second.  Not only do you receive a more blind shot, but it's nearly impossible to judge your 50-100 distance with those massive guardian shoulders that frame the green surfaces.  Many of the Augusta greens are marvels and this one is in that category as the surface twists away from the slightest cape of the green leftwards.

9. Again, for pros, it's a a glance at the pin sheet.  If the pin is on the middle or back shelf it's a bomb down to the flats 20-40 yards before the tournament crosswalk - nothing to see.  If the pin is up, they often go to a 3 wood that ends up right side and a little shorter.  Though that area can produce a slicey, hanging lie, they seem to utilize those features to deaden the ball a little bit and get it spinning to the side.

10.  Can't be a more dramatic impact on an approach shot than NOT pocketing that draw shot into the "slot" of that fairway.  That area still has a downhill lie and is one of the reasons (besides the plane and speed of the green) the shot is so difficult, even when it's less than 175.  but if you miss it, everything is 190+ off a hanging lie.

11.  This has lengthened and changed so much I don't know what the new terrain looks like.  In the shorter versions of the hole there were a few wavy mounds and a general crown off to the left rough.  Sometimes driving too far gave a short but "fiddly" downhill lie 8-iron.  but I think that's almost all gone now, those strategy demands.

13.  Like 15, if you're not on in two the only decent short position for a third is on the low left of the fairway.  The contours of this green don't put quite so much the necessity of the left side as 15 does, but the sharpness of the fairway on the top right side leading to Rae's creek make shots a little scary

14.  The entire fairway cants to the right rough (1st version of course had a bunker there - now its the only bunker-less hole) and is a little sharper, slicey on that portion of fairway, but worth it as you are playing into a green that flows hard to the same side (once you've navigated distance control).  The left part of the fairway is nearly level but the angles to middle and left side pins are defended with greater force if you come from there.  Books could be and should be written about this green.

15.  See #13 - but an interesting note here is the beautiful balance and shot demands of Augusta's four Par 5s.  They are each reachable but the lie you receive when you hit a longer tee shot is often awkward unless you hit a perfect shot....#2, downhill lie insinuating slice, #8 uphill lie insinuating a hook, #13 - ball above your feet, #15 downhill lie with a slight hook bias an over the greatest body of water.

#17 - Very flat if you bust it fully over the fairway crest past IKE's tree. Then it's on your distance control and spin to the particular pin location.

#18 - At the 405 and 430 distance those hummock mounds inside 110 yards used to do some odd things, but they are seldom in play now and the entire ball of wax, once in the fairway, is judging distance from an uphill lie to an uphill target.  There is a bit of slice in that shot too, but it's not like you can play to avoid that feature, so its non-strategic in my mind.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -

jim_lewis

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 08:16:28 AM »
VK

Excellent hole-by-hole analysis. I agree with everything you said except the part about 3/4 players reaching #2 in two shots. Not anymore since the hole has been lengthened to the max.  Now not many players even go for the green on their second shot unless the wind is down and the pin is on the right. Otherwise, many are hitting fairway woods off the tee and laying up short of the fairway bunker and laying up againon their second shot. Depending on the hole location, some deliberately play for a greenside bunker where their odds of a birdie are actually better than a pitch from the fairway. That second shot used to be one of the most exciting on the course. Sadly, not so much anymore.

Jim Lewis
"Crusty"  Jim
Freelance Curmudgeon

V. Kmetz

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Re: Great Augusta Quote
« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 05:03:07 PM »
JL,

Agreed...I forgot since they went from 550 to 575 and re-pinched the fairway bunker, how brutal that tee shot is for what the pros are trying to do and what kind of 250 yard shot off a crazy lie they have to play. You are exactly correct about playing into the bunker for better control on a third shot.

In reviewing all of our posts and my own lifelong Augusta-phile musings, I think the amount that technology/maintenance/etc has negatively impacted the original playing characteristics of a hole is on #11.

I think the least impact has been made on #3 and it is relevant that it is the hole which has changed the least since 1932.  I think it is one of the perfect shorter par 4s we have.  It doesn't have the panache of some of the famed drive and pitch holes (like #10 riviera, #6 WFW) but i would love to see more frank, broad strategic architecture like that which appears there...anybody can play it from the Masters tees and under Master's conditions and tally birdie to double...just liek the master's competitors.

Despite the severe morphing, lengthening and artificially artificial turf conditions at ANGC when I consider other Mackenzie work, it still seems that he is one of the most versatile architects we've ever had.  I'm not saying he did not carry signature styles around with him as other greats did, but he seems the most adaptable to different land forms and sensitive to natural shot qualities of terrain as anyone who ever worked.

cheers

vk
"The tee shot must first be hit straight and long between a vast bunker on the left which whispers 'slice' in the player's ear, and a wilderness on the right which induces a hurried hook." -