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Peter Pallotta

I'd like to read about the specifics and practicalities of collaboration in golf course design (i.e. with a professional golfer/name; with a design associate; with a mentor); but I'd like also to engender discussion on the more theoretical aspects of collaboration – its potential for enhancing one's talent and the finished product, as well as its limitations and challenges; its strengths and weaknesses.

I've named Jeff B and Paul C because I know both work/have worked with PGA players (and in Jeff's case, with several).  But I wouldn't want to limit this to a discussion about those kinds of collaborations; and even less do I want this to become a thread about bashing tour pros and how little they contribute.  (Not only has that been done to death around here, but it is too easy and too simplistic).

Otherwise please take this in any direction you want. All I know is that the great American song book of the 20s, 30s and 40s was created in large part through collaboration (e.g. Rodgers & Hart; George & Ira Gershwin etc) -- so I know for sure that collaboration can work, and make better the talents of each.  Thanks

Peter

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 05:47:37 PM »
Perhaps it gets tricky with the egos involved.  I don't mean that as slap at anyone.  We all have egos and as we get older, perhaps we get inflexible along with our big egos. 

Collabortations that jump right off the page at me are...

Sebonack...I really think this might have had an influence on Jack and I am wondering if it will have an effect on Tom.

Old Mac...Jim Uribina and Tom Doak co-designers.

Pine Valley...Can you really call this thing just a Crump course?

Crystal Downs...Maxwell/Mackenzie


You know a collaboration that I am absolutely DYING to see and it needs to be sooner rather than later...

PETE DYE and TOM DOAK.

C'mon.  The mentor and the mentee.  Both with AMAZING track records and pedigrees.  Tom with the great greens, Pete with the sinister tee to green challenges.  This would be a winning collabortation for sure.

Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

TEPaul

Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 06:40:47 PM »
PeterP:

Good for you to produce a thread like this one. I hope it is edifying and educational to you and many others. I've never collaborated with JeffB (although I did try to help him out with a job up here years ago but I suppose because I'm a lying, original document altering creep and pathetic excuse for a human being, unfortunately he did not get the project.

But I have collaborated with Paul C (and sometimes Forrest Fezler but only a day with Davis and Mark) on mostly one project in Maryland but also just an afternoon on another in Georgia and I completely guarantee you it was a real ball and so educational. He is one of my very favorite people. I love the way he thinks, the way he deals with people out there and the ideas he has, many of which are so interestingly outside the box, at least in theory but sometimes in practice (whatever happened to that 18th century stone wall you found (sort of ;)) Paul?). I have spent quite a bit of time out on projects with architects over the years but that project in Maryland with Paul was one of my fondest memories of my dozen or so years being really into this stuff.

I can't wait to hear what they say in answer to your good thread here.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 12:14:24 PM »
Pete,

As it happens, your question comes just as Ran is doing an interview with me, and many of those questions relate to my working with Tour Pros, so you may just have to wait for a complete answer, but here is a basic outline of the Tour Pro collaborations:

There are a couple of pros, like Nicklaus and Palmer, who have their own staffs, but most partner with a Golf Course Architect like myself because they don’t get enough projects to employ someone full time.  There are also business and insurance issues for them, but often, my errors and omissions provider will cover them, too, for an additional fee.

In most cases, these guys use their contacts to get the job.  I provide them with my basic contract, they add the professional representation things from their contract, and then I sign a sub-contract to provide all the basic Golf Course Architect services only, and they have some legalistic clause about only looking at things from player’s perspective, and not drainage, etc.  There have been cases where we signed separate contracts, and in reality, I prefer it that way to get co-credit and because the contracts represent what is really going on, which is a good thing.

Pros tend to equate architecture to daily outing fees.  Hypothetically, if they get $50K per corporate outing, they contract to spend four days on site if their portion of the fee is $200K and “throw in” design review, etc.  I would say all the pros I worked with ended up giving more days on site than was actually contracted.

They usually walk the site with us before design, and after the routing is done, we usually have one meeting after I have roughed in some concepts. Between those reviews and any general types of conversations, we put in features they would like to see.

Then, they make a few well timed site visits, although half the time is spent with the press, of course.  They make further comments, and because of their status, those changes are usually made, although sometimes, an owner or contractor balks if it would cost too much in time or money.

BTW, over the years, I also collaborated with many of my own associates, including Jeff Blume, who used to post here, and John Colligan, whose young associate Trey Kemp posts here.  Either may want to add what its like to collaborate with me in charge!

I have also collaborated with similar gca's including John Fought, Gary Baird (more in name only) and Jay Morrish.  Working with Fought and Morrish were both great, great exeperiences.  As was mentioned last week, I am collaborating with Damian Pascuzzo and Steve Pate at La Costa.  In all cases, egos never seemed to get in the way at all.  There are a few discussions about theory, and areas where we would all do things differently.

With Damian, we sat down and measured out a bunch of Wilson bunkers to see what it would take to mimic them, because we have personal differences in bunker styles. 

When collaborating with Jay, my young associates were just in awe of him as we sat in the conference room and went over design concepts, and personally very pleased if he approved something they had worked on.  My guy was edging all the bunkers in the field when Jay made a site visit.  He said that while he loved lacy edged bunkers, he would like to see a simple set on one hole for contrast.  My associate looked at me, I nodded, and the 11th at Whitestone got built with much smoother bunker edges than the other holes, and one more hole got softened to keep it from standing out.

I have relayed the story here about John Fought and I discussing bunker placement in regards to both walking and cart path circulation, and us both saying "Hmm, I never thought to consider it that way" referring to the others concerns.

As Larry the Cable guy might say, "I could go on all day" with nice remembrances about those days if the field.  Despite what a few say about later remembrances of participants in a design project, I can remember some of those even 25 year old events clear as a bell, and will actually spend some time this week writing them down for posterity, just in case there comes a day when I don't remember all those nice days I have had!
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +2/-1
Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 03:55:54 PM »
Peter:

Everything I do is a collaboration of some sort.  This week, I'm in France, collaborating with Jonathan Reisetter and our client on putting together a routing and flagging some clearing areas.  Everyone is free to suggest stuff, but in this case, I'm clearly the one with the most experience, so I make the decisions.

The daily exercise here is not all that much different than working with Mr. Nicklaus at Sebonack or with Mike Clayton in Australia, apart from the fact that I don't have to wear a microphone here, thank God.

Peter Pallotta

Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 04:56:07 PM »
Jeff, Tom - thanks. 

You have both collaborated as 'associates' from both perspectives, i.e. you have been the youngsters, working with/learnng from a mentor; and you have also been the mentor/senior associate.

I think I know some of the dynamics involved in the former case, but I'd be interested in hearing more about the latter, i.e. the cases when you are working with others at the very least as equals but usually as the "lead", the senior associate and decision-maker. 

I'd enjoy reading about that from a bird's eye view, i.e. how you have experienced the give and take of leadership in design, the hows and whys and whats of accepting and incorporating other views and making them your own.

Peter   

Mike Nuzzo

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The Nature of Collaboration - Questions for Jeff B and Paul C et al
« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 05:00:58 PM »
I like my collaboration with Don Mahaffey.
Design, construction and maintenance collaborating from the beginning.

From the beginning I knew that Don wanted to be able to gang mow the whole course if needed or warranted.
With that concept in mind he helped make sure all fairway shaping was gang mowable.
Now one man can mow 80ish acres of fairway in a day.

Cheers
Thinking of Bob, Rihc, Bill, George, Neil, Dr. Childs, & Tiger.

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