The Art of Designing on a Level Site

[John_D._Bernhardt]

Paul, Seminole has a large sand ridge running through it. while several holes are flat, great use of the ridge was made to incorporate as many holes as possible to it.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom

Mea culpa.  I didn't know that Perry Maxwell had designed the greens on the Old Course and all the other great Scottish links that are filled with "poofs!"  The good ole boy really got around, didn't he!  You live and learn, don't you!

BTW--don't use that phase "(the) Scottish links are filled with poofs" when you get over there.  Some thoughtless soul might take your head off!

Cheers

Rich

[TEPaul]

JohnB:

Actually Seminole is highly unusual for Florida because it has two ridges not running through it but running on both the eastern and western borders of the property with the middle being flat or almost a valley due to the two parallel north to south ridges on either side.

There's nothing unusual at all about a Florida course having a dune ridgeline along the ocean but the western ridgeline on the other side of the property paralleling the ocean really is unusual for Florida and this is particularly the ridgeline Ross made very clever use of!

His nines are basically side by side but he did get the holes on both nines pretty well spinning around the compass which is a good thing on a wind site like that one.

I believe that Ross's routing style throughout his career was basically all the high tee and green sites he could find on any property. Basically he was not a ridgerunning designer. But at Seminole he managed to get some high tee and green sites with holes or quick combinations of them sort of playing down into valleys and up but he also did some ridgerunning too (#4!!--somewhat #6).

Just a brilliant Florida routing! The only hole I've never been that fond of is #9. It was probably just a "get back to the clubhouse" hole on a part of the property that had drainage problems too. I never realized until recently the significance of that berm running along the right side of #9 in the Australian pines. That was a masterful stroke for both drainage and irrigation recycling on Ross's part!

[TEPaul]

Rich:

You've just got to stop being such a Scottish golf snob! You're beginning to sound like some of the Dutchmen I know (and know well) that as far as I can tell feel that anything and everything we do here in American or ever have done  was thought of first in Holland!

Golf owes much allegiance to Scotland and gives it to Scotland too. But Scotland doesn't deserve every single thing in golf or its architecture either and I'm getting tired of that and if I ever get a change to design something I'm going to attempt to ditch the bunker altogether as a vestige and representation of those dunsy, sandy things that Scottish sheep used to f... in at night!

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom

Thanks!  I've always been a Scottish golf snob and I'm proud of it!  You should try to get over and play there some day.  You might just learn a thing or two.  You'll very much enjoy the golf, too.

In the interim, you might pick up a recently published book :  "How the Scots Invented the Modern World" by Arthur Herman.  It is so restrained (and focused on political and social theory) that it does not even include such inventions as television (John Logie Baird) and golf (which,as we all know--including your Orange friends--was invented by the Dutch!).

Cheers

Rich

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

TE
One of the reasons I chose five course designed by five different architects was to show that although there were stylistic differences that they shared certain characteristics. I'm also not too crazy about the Seminole bunkering and prefer the original Ross flashed sand, but the photo illustrates the openness and the bold architectural features that they all share. And the architects general acceptance of the natural flat profile of the site.

There seems to be two schools of thought by architects faced with a flat site, accept the flatness and simply enhance it with important architectural/strategic features - bunkers and greens. Or the opposite view, not to accept the flatness because it is thought to be uninteresting. In that case the architect's role is to create a rolling more defined and interesting site by moving dirt - creating gentling flowing ground and mounding to visually frame each hole. I actually believe the second choice is more difficult to pull off because it requires a hell of a lot of talent and money to do it well.

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom MacW

Just looked at your pictures.  The only "level" site I see is Yeaman's Hall, which, perhaps coincidentally, has the most "manufactured" look to it.

What is the topic, again?

PS--not sure how "good" the Garden City photo would look without the colors of the wildflowers.  Are we still just looking at "architecture" or does ambience count now?

[TEPaul]

OK, Rich, I'll give the Scots their due--much of the modern world was their idea but they have to take the good with the bad and be honest about things--or I'm not laying off them! They have to admit they invented the MacDonald's hamburger because that's already startingly obvious but they have to admit they invented the funky chicken too because I have documented evidence of it and they won't admit it!

You're damned right I would love to play golf in Scotland--are you joking? And I know I'd love it! You know how when Pat Mucci and Matt Ward sometimes say you can't tell anything about golf or its architecture from looking at photos and how I sometimes tell them they're full of sh...!? Well that's why--Scotland!!

[TEPaul]

In my opinion that particular Garden City photo shows just about the ultimate in a really great golf hole and also the ultimate in both minimalism and blending in with the natural lines and feeling of the site and the topography. For many of the diverse topics we discuss on here about these various things that may be the hole that has it all! Screw the wildflowers and their measly ambiance!

[THuckaby2]

No worries, Doyen Paul - you've seen the best golf anywhere near the UK.  The Scots need only look across the IRISH Sea to view their superiors in golf and everything else worth living for.

 

TH

[TEPaul]

TomH:

Now you've got my interest up! Do the Irish and the Scots hate each other? I've never really heard either way. They probably do and they probably aggressively compete about the quality of their courses, huh?

Well, at least they can agree that both have better golf than those stuck-up English people and those silly new courses they have in the woods!

[Tom MacWood (Guest)]

Garden City


St.Andrews


Seminole

Rich
Perhaps these are better illustrations, the middle one is an example that you gave.

The purpose of this topic is to identify the most interesting courses on level sites and what characteristics they might share. I think the color you see in the GCGC photo is the Autumn color of dying native plants. I like it, it looks very natural and enhances the feeling of integration with the environment - a common trait found with many of these level courses.

[THuckaby2]

My feeling is the Irish and Scots have a LOT in common, most importantly a lot of shared Celtic heritage, and the common enemy you have so perfectly defined.  So no, they don't hate each other, certainly not.  
They just like to "call" each other when one gets cheeky enough to suggest they are the best in anything.

 

TH

[Slag_Bandoon]

 Tommy Paul, I had always assumed that you'd been to Scotland.  You are without a doubt the "Crusader" here for "truth, justice and freedom on golf playing grounds".  They don't just serve haggis, anymore.  Perhaps this years Golfapalooza should be in Scotland.  Let's say late May and early June.  Plane flights are cheap.  Passports are cheap.  The mad cows are now all dearly departed.  
 Richard, I tried to find out what "poof" meant at BBC Chewin' the Fat but the site wouldn't come up.  Please define and warn me of any other words that may find me doing the 'big sleep' in a blanket of kelp.

  Flat grounds force the imagination to illuminate.  Dynamic grounds should be envisioned with restraint.

[THuckaby2]

Slag:  Though due to the mention of golfapalooza I assume you are speaking to Tom Paul, just to set the record absolutely straight, this Tom (Huckaby) has been to Scotland several times.  Oh, I haven't lived there like Rich, but I've been there enough.

And my statement above stands.

Yes, I am trying to draw out Rich.  His retorts in things like this are typically the stuff of LEGEND.

 

TH

[Richard_Goodale]

Huckster and Tomster and Slagster and MacWoodie

The "Scots" are descendents of the "Scotti" an Irish tribe.  There was a lot of genetic to-ing and fro-ing across the Irish Sea in those good old days.

"Poofs" were probably part of it, although they probably did not engage in the exchange of genetic mateiral, being of the "I am Spartacus!" persuasion.

The Irish really don't care that the Scots perfected golf.  They just play their own game, and it is good.  The English and the anglophile-Americans are far more full of angst on this issue.  They find it painfully hard to understand that the Celtic tribes are so much better at the creation and development of something which they so much enjoy.

MacWoodie.  Is that the New Course?  If it's the Old Course, I'll give her more credit in the future.

Cheers to all.

Rich

[THuckaby2]

Rich:  I should have known better.  That is so damn logical and is of course 100% correct.  I just wanted some vitriol and yep, I should have known better than to expect you to fall for such so easily.

Damn.

Now back to your intelligent discussion.

TH

[Richard_Goodale]

Tom IV (Tom H, Huckster, friend)

There is in my mind a thought of some sort of Golfapalooza/GCA Tour event in Scotland, this fall.  3-7 days.  In Dornoch.  In October, maybe even late October.  Playing Dornoch, Dornoch-Struie (OTM, Steel/McKenzie, Hiseman), Skibo, Brora, Golspie, Tain.   Staying at the Burghfield House Hotel.  Consuming enormous amounts of alcoholic beverages.  Singing lots of songs.  Maybe even getting some of the current archies (i.e. McKenzie, Hiseman) involved).  Maybe even Scottish golf virgins like TE Paul participating.

...a man's dreams should exceed his grasp...."

Cheers

Rich

[TEPaul]

Rich:

The Americans are not full of angst on that issue, even anglophile Americans. Americans are not full of angst on much of anything with the possible exception of some very low level but subliminal concern that they might kill someone too easily and feel sort of guilty about it two weeks later.

But they're even getting better about that minor concern even with the recent realization that they can wipe out or rearrange whole countries in about fifteen minutes.

Golf and who thought up anything about it? No problem to Americans. They do things their own way in golf anyway--I'm sure you've noticed that! Those scruffy looking things they call courses in Scotland where all you do is freeze your ass off and get wet!?

Jeezus, those pitiful people who like those places are backwards, but one should not treat them too harshly since one should feel sorry for a whole race that's incapable of growing even a single tree on their best golf course!

[THuckaby2]

Rich:

You of all people know that such an event would mean more to me than anything I can think of... in terms of fun, coolness, education....

But you also know the realities of my life.  It ain't damn likely to be allowed by the powers that be.  I'm gonna have a hard enough time pulling off freakin' Barona, and that's a $100 flight rt, 36 hours gone total.  Scotland, gone for a week, spending some serious money no matter how cheaply I try to do it?  Not bloody likely.

But I shall continue to dream.  Thanks for the thought.

In the meantime, thanks to the Barona gig and another with a common friend of ours, my golf year won't be completely without merit.

In your honor, I say:

Slainte!

TH

[Paul Turner]

One of Rich's flat course choices, Deal, a fine ENGLISH links



TE Paul

I'm sympathetic: my mates from Glasgow are  easily the most neurotic patriots I've ever met.  We invented this, blah, blah, blah...  

But if they claim James Watt invented the steam engine, you can tell them it's baloney (which it is)  

[Slag_Bandoon]

Tommy Paul,  Make the hemisherical leap!  (Subtle symbolism - NOT)   I mean - use the right side of your brain.  Beware of a life of contentment through rutted neural pathways dude.  Ride the cosmic sand dune.  

 "Paradise softens"   Frank Herbert  

  "Cold is not pain, rain is not battery acid, and wind is not out to get you."  Norbert Painter

  "If Scotland is half the experience of Ireland, I will have lived a full life."  NP morphing B Jones quote.

[Richard_Goodale]

Paul T

I am FLABBERGASTED that Deal has changed so much in the 21 years since I last saw her!  Fuggedabout global warming, this is Global Morphing, at the cruellest and yet on the most most beautiful  scale!

Ps--when I hear people expressing energy in Kilonewcomenhours I might be more sympathetic to your Caledoniaphobia.

TomP

There is a small spinney of trees on the best golf course in Scotland (and the world).  It jus does not come into play.  Listen to Slag, and ye too shall be free.

R

[TEPaul]

I'm trying to listen to Slag, but he doesn't seem to come near enough to speaking Philadelphian so it's kinda hard. My brain is pretty small and I'm not sure it has a right side.

[TEPaul]

PaulT:

That's a very nice looking Deal hole indeed. I like those fairway contours--I call that a bit of the corrugated look!