[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Its late here.  You know the document (the Lesley report) which I presume got put into the club record somewhere, even if minutes is the wrong phrase.  And I am not sure how it is you cannot read those articles as attributing design, creation, construction of MCC to the committee because its mentioned several times.  As I said, if the word design isn't mentioned every time, I think it says more about how they viewed the whole thing as a process, but parse the words any way you want, I have a plane to catch.
 
And yes, they all thanked both the committee and CBM profusely for the few days he spent. If I recall the words were that he gave them a good start in the principles, picked the final plan (that the committee had drawn) among others.

WTF does that prove?  As I said, what happened happened, and those reports tell us what it was.  This is a circle.  No word on who the biggest jerk in it is......(just to clarify, not a shot at you....there are several candidates!  Not as funny in print as it sounded in my head.....)

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

What would you say if I told you the end result was that Merion had to buy 3 acres or roads for their share of these transactions? How would it impact yourvision of Mr Thompson's April motion to 'exchange already purchased for adjoining and buy three more acres'?

Jim,

Let me think about that one.   My first gut reaction would be something I've suspected but can't prove....that the Francis Swap happened during construction AFTER April 1911, not before.

I have to ask you to explain your contention that "it confirms it".

How does buying whole tracts of land in their entirety represent just picking out the necessary features for the golf holes they envisioned?   As it is, it's a very tight fit...wouldn't this support the notion that they bought the land and then fit the golf holes as opposed to the opposite?

In other words, why buy ALL of the Dallas Estate?   Why buy all of the Johnson Farm to every border but the one split between real estate and golf?   Wasn't their land available from HDC's holdings somewhat predetermined by the portions seemingly pre-ordained for real estate?   

[JESII]

Jim,

1. I understand what you are saying about "the problem" but don't agree that it fits in the context of the acknowledgement.   We'll have to agree to disagree.

2. Can you explain to me where "Lesley certainly weighs in with his opinion of how attribution should be allocated?"

"The ground was found adapted for golf and a course was laid out upon it about three years ago by the following committee: Hugh I. Wilson, chairman, R. S. Francis, H. G. Lloyd, R. E. Griscom, and Dr. Hal Toulmin, who had as advisers, Charles B. Macdonald and H. J. Whigham."

I agree with every word.
____________________________________

David,

Can you clarify why you think my interpretation of the word problem is out of context? Lesley uses the word problem to describe the congestion issue they were trying to solve righ in that first page and a half.


Regarding the "Adviser" title given, I don't disagree either but then I assume our disagreement will be on how to define the word. I looked at a few online dictionaries and they all support the use of "adviser" as offering advice and consulting. None of them hint at t leadership role being the advisory role. What definition are you using?

[Mike Cirba]

A leader, or someone in charge or any project or endeavor does not offer "advice and suggestions" which is what EVERYONE said M&W did at Merion.

It's the exact opposite of a leader or decision-maker, in fact.

[JESII]

Thanks Mike but I think we all knew where you would come down on this question...




How about the 3 acres?

[Patrick_Mucci]

How does buying whole tracts of land in their entirety represent just picking out the necessary features for the golf holes they envisioned?   As it is, it's a very tight fit...wouldn't this support the notion that they bought the land and then fit the golf holes as opposed to the opposite?

In other words, why buy ALL of the Dallas Estate?   Why buy all of the Johnson Farm to every border but the one split between real estate and golf?   Wasn't their land available from HDC's holdings somewhat predetermined by the portions seemingly pre-ordained for real estate?   

Mike, the answer is simple.
Because that's how the REAL WORLD works.
Do you think that property owners are going to subdivide their land and sell off parcels to interested parties ?
Do you really think that's the real world ?

At a club I"m very familiar with we tried to buy three small strips from three different property owners whose land bordered the golf course.  Each one, indepenednt of the other said, "sure, I'll sell you my land, all of it.  No one is interested in selling a small parcel of their land when it compromises the remaining large parcel of their land.  Land is valuable and people don't sell off small strips to entities that can only compromise the interest of the remaining parcel

20+ years ago, I advised Joe McBride to try an buy a narrow strip of land from the neighboring property owner, a strip that bordering Joe's club.
The neighbor's parcel of land was well over 300 acres and I told him to try to buy a narrow strip, a 25-50 yard strip that bordered about 7 holes.
As plan B, I advised him to see if he couldn't get an option on that strip in the event the land was sold or offered for sale at some point in the future.

And, the price that could be paid, for what seemed like useless land was considerable, making it attractive to the seller.

Had either Plan A or Plan B been executed, NGLA and Sebonack would have a nice buffer today.

Mike, NO ONE in their right mind sellls strips of their bordering land to their neighbors.

That's why they had to buy the entire parcel/s

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I thought I answered your three acres question above?   Did you see it?

In any case, I'll re-copy my answer and expand on what I think is a very possible theory.   I wrote;

Jim,

Let me think about that one.   My first gut reaction would be something I've suspected but can't prove....that the Francis Swap happened during construction AFTER April 1911, not before.

Why do I say this?   Well, we all seem to think that the Thompson Resolution in April 1911 that talks about swapping land for land already purchased and the need for three more acres is the Francis Swap, correct?  

Personally, I always was a little uncertain about that one...something didn't quite make sense and when Bryan Izatt looked at the proposed metes and bounds it seemed there was never a scenario where an additional three acres would be needed no matter how we logically figured it...and if three more acres were needed, then was it really a "swap"?

Besides, at the time of the resolution, Merion (Lloyd, actually) owned ALL of the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate.   So why would Merion need to swap for land outside of those parameters??

Instead, let me offer another theory that I think is very, very possible.

We also know that the land of the original (and today's) first green went beyond the boundary of the Johnson Farm, into adjoining HDC property on what was originally the George Taylor Estate.   I'm recalling it was about 10-20 yards from that point to Golf House Road, and today even the property stone marking the divide between the Johnson Farm and the Taylor Estate  is still evident along the street adjacent to the 1st green.  

Don't quote me on the exact yardage, but Bryan's measurements confirmed that some portion of the Merion property around the 1st green extended beyond the boundaries of the Johnson Farm into the Taylor land.

So, if that's the case, couldn't that be what was referred to in the Thompson Resolution?   Now, that would certainly require some type of swap, because they'd be needing land that 1) wasn't under Lloyd's direct ownership and control, and 2) that would require either a purchase or a swap.

Now, that in and of itself would not make up the entire 3 acres, but I'm starting to think that the 3 acres is sort of a red herring here.   It could be simply that they miscalculated originally in what they thought they needed for the course (securing 117 but finding that it was too tight and needed to buy 3 more for 120 + 3 Leased RR Land for 123).    Or, as you suggest, it could be the additional 3 acres of roads they hadn't figured on.

Recall also that the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan, as best as Bryan was able to measure it, was around 124 acres, not 117.

Confused yet?    

Ok...let's read what Francis wrote one more time.   Doesn't it sound from his descriptions that he's possibly talking more about "fitting" the course onto the land (the construction process) than about a theoretical paper layout?



In the first paragraph he talks about getting the first 13 holes in position (with the help of a "little ground" north of Ardmore Avenue).   What if this land was that small portion of ground that allowed them to fit the first green?   Recall that the original first hole ran from the clubhouse and then ran around the original 10th green and 11th tee, which was a very tight fit.   Here's a view of the 1st, showing the original 10th green and 11th tee (as well as today's) from 1924.



Here's the hole description;



The rest of Francis's description about having land west of the clubhouse (Johnson Farm Land) that wasn't used for any golf layout and trying to fit the final five holes could well be about the construction process.   Certainly blowing the top off the quarry within a day or two of getting Lloyd's approval (who still owned the property until Merion purchased in July) sounds like construction was underway, yes?

I think the only thing that you'd have to adjust is your idea that the swap was for the entire 130x190 triangle and not just a realignment of the original 117 (by this time, 120) acres within that western border, most likely to accommodate the additional width needed up top to allow members to negotiate around the quarry.    

Blast away!  

So...

I have to ask you to explain your contention that "it confirms it".

How does buying whole tracts of land in their entirety represent just picking out the necessary features for the golf holes they envisioned?   As it is, it's a very tight fit...wouldn't this support the notion that they bought the land and then fit the golf holes as opposed to the opposite?

In other words, why buy ALL of the Dallas Estate?   Why buy all of the Johnson Farm to every border but the one split between real estate and golf?   Wasn't their land available from HDC's holdings somewhat predetermined by the portions seemingly pre-ordained for real estate?  

[DMoriarty]

David,

Can you clarify why you think my interpretation of the word problem is out of context? Lesley uses the word problem to describe the congestion issue they were trying to solve righ in that first page and a half.

In short, I think you are convoluting his explanation of the need for a 2nd course with his acknowledgement of those who actually contributed to the creation of two courses.   

The first use of the word "problem" directly referred to the need for a new course due to the overcrowding of Merion East brought on by the success of that course; "the problem of congestion and spoiled sport by reason of the greatly increased membership."   The second use was in the context of thanking three discrete groupings of people who had specifically contributed the creation of both courses. 

I've told you what I think it means, but it is not worth laboring over.  My understanding is informed by my having read multitudes of accounts of the creation of golf holes and golf courses during this time period, but if you read it otherwise, so be it.  Convincing you that my reading is more sound given the context would mean taking you back through hundreds of descriptions I have read so that you could better place yourself in their shoes when interpreting these documents and frankly it is not worth it to me.  My position in no way hinges on this interpretation. 

Regarding the "Adviser" title given, I don't disagree either but then I assume our disagreement will be on how to define the word. I looked at a few online dictionaries and they all support the use of "adviser" as offering advice and consulting. None of them hint at t leadership role being the advisory role. What definition are you using?

It all depends upon the identity of the advisor, the content of the Advice, and whether or not that advice is followed. 
 - In this case the Advisors happened to be considered the foremost experts on the creation of golf courses in the Country. 
 - The content of the advice covered the gamut of just about everything to do with creating a golf course, from choosing the land, to planning the layout, to growing the grass, to contacting other experts.
 - Every indication we have is that Merion realized the value of CBM/HJW's advice and followed it, even going so far as to have CBM/HJW choose the final routing plan.

You guys throw around "advisor" as if it discounts and minimizes their contribution.  I don't read it that way at all.  It is merely a description of their relationship to the process.  They weren't members of the club (the Committee) and they weren't hired by the club because they were Amateurs,  and CMB and HJW did not lay the course out on the ground like the construction committee.   The club sought out their advice and they provided advice.  And fortunately the club had the good sense to listen!

The mere fact that they are even discussed in this article indicates to me that their contribution was damn important. They and the committee are the only ones mentioned by name in the entire article.  No mention of Barker, Flynn, Pickering, Piper, Oakley, Findlay or anyone else.

[Mike Cirba]

Was CBM called the "advisor" at Piping Rock?   At Sleepy Hollow??   Lido??  Mid Ocean??  St. Louis???  White Sulphur Springs??

Did he offer "suggestions and advice" at those courses, or was he in charge??

[DMoriarty]

He and Raynor built those courses.  Merion built Merion, according to the plan cbm had chosen.

CBM may have had less direct input at a few of those.

[Bryan Izatt]

It has entered the dogma that CBM/HJW chose the final routing plan.  Can anybody post the source document that supports that point.  Just wanted to look at how it was presented in context.


Jim,

Re your question about the 3 acres and whether it could be the purchasing of their half of the roads.  I think not.  One half of GHR works out to about an acre and Ardmore works out to less than an acre, so I don't think that the roads could account for the 3 acres.

[Mike Cirba]

He and Raynor built those courses.  Merion built Merion, according to the plan cbm had chosen.

CBM may have had less direct input at a few of those.


advisor:
i
advise/ədˈvʌɪz/

▶verb
1 recommend (a course of action), ESPECIALLY if no building was involved.
■ offer advice to, ESPECIALLY if no building was involved.

2 inform about a fact or situation, ESPECIALLY if no building was involved.
– derivatives
adviser (also advisor) noun.

David,

Does your neck hurt when you stop spinning? 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Was CBM called the "advisor" at Piping Rock?   At Sleepy Hollow??   Lido??  Mid Ocean??  St. Louis???  White Sulphur Springs??

Did he offer "suggestions and advice" at those courses, or was he in charge??

None of those courses and their development were analogous to the course and development at Merion, so why would you expect the same nomenclature ?

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Here you go, from the April 19th, 1911 MCC Minutes;

Golf Committee through Mr. Lesley, report as follows on the new Golf Grounds:

Your committee desires to report that after laying out many different courses on the
new land, they went down to the National Course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the
evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad in regard
to golf courses. The next day was spent on the ground studying the various holes,
which were copied after the famous ones abroad.

On our return, we re-arranged the course and laid out five different plans. On April
6th Mr. Macdonald and Mr. Whigham came over and spent the day on the ground, and
after looking over the various plans, and the ground itself, decided that if we would lay
it out according to the plan they approved, which is submitted here-with, that it would
result not only in a first class course, but that the last seven holes would be equal to
any inland course in the world. In order to accomplish this, it will be necessary to
acquire 3 acres additional.


While we're considering definitions, which of these would you feel is appropriate to the context?

ap·prove (-prv)
v. ap·proved, ap·prov·ing, ap·proves
v.tr.
1. To consider right or good; think or speak favorably of.
2. To consent to officially or formally; confirm or sanction: The Senate approved the treaty.
3. Obsolete To prove or attest.
v.intr.
To show, feel, or express approval: didn't approve of the decision.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Or is the use of the word "advisor" at Merion similar to the use of the word "advisor" when the Green Berets were "advisors" to the Montagnard tribesmen.

The Green Berets did everything, including teach, instruct, plan, command and participate.

[Mike Cirba]

None of those courses and their development were analogous to the course and development at Merion, so why would you expect the same nomenclature ?

Patrick,

I agree with you for once...none of those course were analogous in the least, which is why they didn't use the term "advisor" there.

CBM was the architect of those courses.

And no, our historic use of military "advisors" to fight wars in foreign countries without Congressional authorization is not analogous either.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The Green Berets were authorized for the conduct of their activities

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

That's fine...I'm just aware that we've sent military "advisors" into any number of foreign countries who actually had combat roles.

I'm not passing a value judgement here, simply stating it's not analogous.   "Mercenaries" and/or "Soldiers of Fortune" aren't as politically palatable terms as "advisors".

In any case, the analogy is not applicable.

[JESII]

Mike,

Lloyd didn't buy the land on behalf of Merion in December, he took title for HDC and paid them $85K for the priveledge.



David,

It looks like your position would hinge somewhat on this interpretation when you put CBM/HJW in the third category as you've already speculated. Your interpretation has Robert Lesley saying CBM/HJW solve the problems of the hole designs. You say your reasoning for interpreting "problem" in the context written in that article is due to the hundreds of other articles of the time in which "problem" referred to the strategic architecture, can I ask, was it ever used to simply discuss a problem...as defined as a difficult situation?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Lloyd bought the Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate in December. Lock, stock, and Barrel.

[JESII]

Jim,

Lloyd bought the Johnson Farm and Dallas Estate in December. Lock, stock, and Barrel.

On behalf of HDC, not Merion. You've repeatedly said Merion bought their land in December and used this technicality as a drop dead date for any activity on the land. You can't have it both ways.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

That"s correct...they did buy it in December, or at least Lloyd did.

[JESII]

Jim,

That"s correct...they did buy it in December, or at least Lloyd did.

They who?

[JESII]

Jim,

Re your question about the 3 acres and whether it could be the purchasing of their half of the roads.  I think not.  One half of GHR works out to about an acre and Ardmore works out to less than an acre, so I don't think that the roads could account for the 3 acres.

You're probably right, but my measures are:

GHR - 3,870 X 11 ft.
Ardmore Ave from the train tracks to GHR - 1,161 X 34 ft.
Ardmore Ave from GHR to the 6th green - 1641 X 17 ft.

That's about 110,000 square feet, or about 2.5 acres.

Did they have to buy all of Ardmore Ave when they owned both sides?
Did they have to buy half the of a road that may have been built between the tracks and the 12th hole?

Just thinking...wondering how they decided 117 was the right number in the first place...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Technically, Merion secured 117 acres on November 15th, 1910 when President Allen Evans accepted in writing Mr. Nicholson's (of HDC) offer to sell a tract of 117 acres at 85,000 out of the 338.6 acres they had available.

In December, due to the fact that the borders of the purchase had not yet been determined, Cuyler recommended that Lloyd take title in his own name "so that the lines (boundary) could be revised subsequently."

I'm not sure if this is what Cuyler had in mind, but on December 21, 1911, Lloyd bought outright the Johnson Farm and the Dallas Estate.

That still doesn't explain how Merion got control of that little piece of land behind the first green that was part of the Taylor Estate.   How do you think that happened?

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