[Mike Cirba]

David,

By the time Whigham wrote that in late 1939, almost 30 years after the fact and with Hugh Wilson and others related to the event dead and gone, and with Merion having already hosted the 1916, 1924, and 1930 US Amateurs, as well as the 1934 US Open, as well as many other events of importance, and with ALL of the reports of the course over that 30 year period attributing it directly and clearly to Hugh Wilson and his Committee, and without a single person EVER attributing it to CBM...

Don't you think it was a pussy move?   I mean, seriously...if there was a time to speak up he had thirty freaking years to do it yet sat quiet as a door mouse.

I mean, that was a manly thing to do?   Are you kidding me?

And the other day you accused me of taking his statement out of context, so here's the prior paragraph, which should be viewed as historically accurate according to you.

"Clubs all over the country asked Macdonald to remodel their courses.   Since he was every inch an amateur, golf architecture for him was entirely a labor of love, and it was quite impossible for him to do all that was asked of him. So he used to send Seth Raynor to do the groundwork, and he himself corrected the plans."

"Raynor had an extraordinary career as a golf architect.   He was a surveyor in Southampton whom Macdonald had called in to read contour maps he had brought from abroad.   Raynor knew nothing about golf and had never hit a ball on any links, but he had a marvelous eye for a country.   Having helped lay out the eighteen holes on the National, he was able to adapt them to almost any topography.   The Macdonald-Raynor courses became famous all over America.   Among the most famous are Piping Rock, the Merion Cricket Club at Philadelphia, the Country Club of St. Louis, two beautiful courses at White Sulphur, the Lido (literally poured out of the lagoon), and that equally amazing Yale course at New Haven, which was hewn out of rock and forest at an expense of some seven hundred thousand dollars.   From coast to coast and from Canadian border to Florida you will find Macdonald courses.   And in hundreds of places he never heard of you will discover reproductions of the Redan and the Eden and the Alps."


By 1939 Merion bore very little resemblance to the course that had opened in 1912 and Whigham had to have known that.   Signficant routing and bunkering changes had taken place, mostly over the period of the first dozen years.

Yet, Whigham seemingly has no desire to either note those changes nor to credit them accurately.

He also seems to have included under the "Macdonald" umbrella, not just every course designed by Raynor, Banks, Barton, and probably Emmet, but also every course built in America where copies of famous holes or their principles from abroad were consciously used.    While that is arguably justifiable to some extent, it also shows how far Whigham was reaching in his eulogy.  

In the next paragraph, he also tells us that Pine Valley was started with the idea of "emulating the National".    Interesting...that's the first time I've ever heard that before.

Was there a course built between 1910 and 1940 that Whigham didn't credit Macdonald for?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Sorry for not responding earlier.  I see some further posts on your query, but wanted to respond anyway.

The dimensions from the July 1911 deed are as follows.  The first measurement is from the middle of College Ave going south (all directions approx.) along the Haverford College boundary for 983.48 feet (328 yards).  It is initially along the eastern edge of GHR.  The metes and bounds track clockwise along the boundaries of the MCCGA property.  The third last measurement is a curve to the left with a radius 200', a chord of 209' and an arc of 220'. The second last measurement is 230 feet (76.6 yards) going north up the middle of GHR and parallel to the first measurement and ending in the middle of College Ave. The last measurement is then east 11 feet along the middle of College Ave to meet the beginning of the first measurement.

On the following map the first measurement of 328 yards is in red.  The second last measurement of 76.6 yards is in purple.  The 190 yards dimension of the Francis triangle is in blue.  Tom subtracted the 190 yards and the 76.6 yards from the 328 yards and came up with the 62 yard dimension in the middle.  He was referring to the quasi-triangular area in yellow.  He said it hasn't been a functional part of Merion for a century.  Nevertheless MCCGA owned it when they were deeded the property in 1911.  They also owned half (11 feet) of GHR.  GHR was built by the time the survey for the deed was done sometime before July 1911.

This deed provides no further insight into when exactly GHR was planned in this configuration.  I agree with you that it was not a major rerouting from the Land Plan map.

For those pondering access to the Haverford College property, have a look at the 1908 or 1913 RR maps.  There is clearly a road into that property off of Haverford Road.  There was no need for one from GHR.




Bryan,

Thanks for the additional information and for confirming that all Merion bought north of the 16th tee was the right half of Golf House Road and the little triangle of land to the east of it where the road swung back to the west.   Of course, that triangle pretty much had to be included, yes?   I mean, I don't think they could/would have said, oh...we'll just give that little morsel back to HDC!    

In any case, do you really think that this isn't a "major rerouting from the Land Plan Map"?    Maybe it's me, but when a plan is altered by over 100 yards in length and eliminates golf course facing properties, I'd say most real estate developers would see that as significant.

More importantly, if this change already happened by November, 1910, why do you think Pugh & Hubbard erroneously represented it on their scaled Land Plan Map?   After all, they apparently surveyed the property, yes?

[JESII]

Mike,

The length wasn't altered at all. It still goes all the way to the center of GHR.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

What do you think the proposed Land Plan looked like before November if you think that date and Land Plan represented Francis's swap?  
Under that Plan, would Merion have been responsible for purchasing the right half of Golf House Road up to College Avenue?

Would you think this accurately represents what you're thinking?

Recall that CBM had already told them in June 1910 that  much could be made of the quarry as a hazard.

Do you think CBM would have advised them to artificially truncate the northern portion of the Johnson Farm that provided access to the quarry for golf holes?   Why would he do that?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

What makes you think there was a land plan before Nov 1910?

They finally get the Dallas Estate in October, if memory serves, and getting the property survey, developing the plan according to the agreement worked out for 120 acres, etc. etc. etc. easily would have taken a month for Pugh and Hubbard to put together.

This stuff just takes longer than DM seems to realize.  As he says, and I agree, its a process, including getting the planning map put together even at that preliminary stage.

[Mike Cirba]

As far as others who were there, we know Alex Findlay was in town and visited with Hugh Wilson.   Any mention of CBM and/or Whigham in his Opening Day article?




How about "Far and Sure", who wrote for Walter Travis's "American Golfer" magazine.   While telling us that;

Two years ago, Mr. Chas. B. Macdonald, who had been of great assistance in an advisory way, told me that Merion would have one of the best inland courses he had ever seen, but every new course is "one of the best in the country" and one must see to believe after trying it out.

...then tell us that the holes themselves are but rough drafts of the problems that have been CONCEIVED by the Construction Committee.   One must have to wonder what driving stakes into the ground to someone else's direction and "conceive"ing of problems of golf holes have to do with each other, but alas...




Evidently this whole idea of driving stakes into the ground must have been quite the impressive feat.   Shortly after Merion opened, one of the richest men in the country, Clarence H. Geist, decided to build his dream course and resort at Seaview near Atlantic City which started in the spring of 1913.

Despite the fact that according to some here, Hugh Wilson had accomplished nothing by that point architecturally (the West course at Merion wouldn't open to members until Memorial Day 1914), we find out in this October 1913 article that indeed Hugh Wilson has laid out the golf course for Mr. Geist.

Here's the relevant portion;



Here's a July, 1914 Philadelphia Record article that provides additional information;

[Mike Cirba]

Mike,

What makes you think there was a land plan before Nov 1910?

They finally get the Dallas Estate in October, if memory serves, and getting the property survey, developing the plan according to the agreement worked out for 120 acres, etc. etc. etc. easily would have taken a month for Pugh and Hubbard to put together.

This stuff just takes longer than DM seems to realize.  As he says, and I agree, its a process, including getting the planning map put together even at that preliminary stage.


Jeff,

I wholeheartedly agree, which is my point.    

The idea that the November 15, 1910 Land Plan represents a border change of any sort initiated by Richard Francis's Brainstorm presupposes that some type of fixed or working border existed prior to that time!  

Of course, that's preposterous, and not supported by anything at all in the way of evidence, records, deeds, correspondence, et.al.

[JESII]

Another barage of newspaper articles? Really?


Jeff,

Is it in any way significant to you that the committee only took CBM / HJW to one site?

Also, for the Dallas deed to be transferred in October, when do you think they verbally agreed with the executor of Mr. Dallas' estate to buy his land? August?

Mike,

Why would "it seem logical to want land on both sides of the creek"?


In answer to earlier questions, it's clear from Francis' comment that the 15th green and 16th tee were newly acquired land after his idea. Beyond that, I don't wish to draw a line. Clearly the line you guys are using as a hard boundary was not intended to be...



Do you think the entire area or road coverage MCCGA was required to purchase could have totaled 3 acres? GHR and Ardmore Avenue in total...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

The sale of the Dallas Estate to HDC took place in November.

The advantage of having land on both sides of the creek is that it can be used as a crossing hazard, i.e. the 11th hole at Merion built in 1924 or the original 13th.    It doesn't quite have the same strategic impact as a backstop.

If you don't agree, witness the article I posted last week that told us Hugh Wilson wished to purchase the land where today's 11th green and 12th tee are located back when the course was first conceived, but that was not possible at the time.   So, the original 11th green had the creek behind it, which nobody thought was a particularly stellar hole.

There was absolutely no property configuration between golf and real estate, fixed, or otherwise, prior to the exchange of letters between HDC and Merion in mid-November and the subsequent issuance of the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan that would have necessitated any type of swap at all.

Why would Merion then have land ("we had some land") prior to then to swap for the triangle land, in your view?   For that matter, why would they need to swap for the triangle land at all as the terms of the agreement, even as late as December, indicated that there was no fixed boundary at that time, only the agreement to purchase 117 acres once those borders were determined?

[JESII]

Mike,

You run into problems when you make each piece of material an absolute beginning AND ending point. Each step took weeks or months from inception until the asset we see, whether it's a letter or a map, to fully materialize. As an example, you'll agree that HDC and MCC didn't decide on that Map on November 15th, correct? That conversation began much earlier.

Another example is your comment that..."There was absolutely no property configuration between golf and real estate, fixed, or otherwise, prior to the exchange of letters between HDC and Merion in mid-November and the subsequent issuance of the November 15th, 1910 Land Plan that would have necessitated any type of swap at all." Merion didn't have any land until July 1911...how do you reconcile that with your strict reading of every piece of information?

[DMoriarty]

Here we go again with Mike's endless parade of pointless and tangential articles, and the kind of cherry picking and misrepresentation that rises to the level of sleaziness in my book.

He accuses me of making "blanket statements that have no basis in reality" for stating that AWT was not involved in the initial creation of Merion East and that AWT's source of information regarding the project was CBM.  Then he cherry picks passages and quotes to create the false impression that AWT might have been involved.  

None of the oft posted articles put AWT into the mix at Merion.  None of them have AWT getting information from anyone other than CBM.  Mike knows this.  He knows that the other articles show that CBM was the source of the information, yet he tries to create the false impression otherwise.  

He has been arguing that "Far and Sure" was AWT for years now, yet Mike manages to dance around the fact Far and Sure admittedly had never seen the course until after it was opened!  Funny he was so involved in its creation and in the middle of what was ongoing that he had never even been there!  Similarly, Mike posts one Findlay article without mentioning the one which indicates that CBM was responsible for the layout of some of the holes at Merion.  And he ignores that the article states that the construction committee BUILT the course and if anything gives credit to his pal Pickering!

This is the best case that he can come up with for Wilson?   A bunch of tangential arguments none of which were written by anyone who was there and NONE of which directly address the questions at issue?  

What is wrong with this picture?  Why are we even discussing this?  If this is the case for Hugh Wilson, then there really isn't anything to discuss.    
____________________________

As for Mike's continued attacks on Whigham.  PURE SLEAZE.   Now Whigham is a "PUSSY"?  Add that to the list of insults Mike and his pathetic Philly buddies have hurled at one of the greatest men in the history of American Golf!  

And for what exactly is Whigham a "PUSSY?"  Mike think he should have objected to the statements about Hugh Wilson having been involved at Merion throughout the years?   Why?  Hugh Wilson was involved.   THERE WASN'T EVEN ANYTHING OUT THERE CLAIMING THAT HUGH WILSON CAME UP WITH THE INITIAL PLAN!    Nothing.
______________________________________

The most telling ridiculous statement among many might be Mike's claim that I "have NO IDEA whether Tillinghast was there or not at any time prior to the course being built.   Not a clue."

First I do have an idea because if we look at all his articles we can figure out where he got his info. From a conversation with CBM at Garden City.  And also because if, as Mike says, Far and Sure was AWT, then he had never been there during the time in question.

Second, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, Mike's statement is indicative of their methodology.  They think that they can just make things up - pretend facts into existence - and then treat them as true unless someone refutes them!  And yes I think that "pretend" is the right word because Mike's argument for AWT's involvement is that he (wrongly) thinks there is no evidence that AWT wasn't involved.   He thinks that whatever he writes is true until proven otherwise.   He cannot meet any reasonable standard on his own, so he tries to shift the burden.   He spouts off and then leaves it to others to disprove.  That is what he had done time and again.   How many times has he announced things were "obvious" or beyond challenge only to have those things eventually be proven false?

And that is what they are doing here with these repeated claims that the record establishes that everyone wrote that Hugh Wilson and not CBM came up with the plan.  That is not what the record establishes.  Not when Brauer broad brushes it or when Cirba does his tiring parade of articles.  There is no meat in any of it.  Nothing close to the Whigham article.  Nothing close to Merion's own Board Minutes.   Nothing close to Hugh Wilson's own tribute to CBM and HJW.  Nothing close to even A.Wilson's acknowledgement.

It is a farce.  It is like Brauer's Birthers or the idiots demanding a photo of Bin Laden before they will believe him dead.   No proof will suffice.  No reasonableness will prevail.   They will continue with tangents and misrepresentations to keep their legend alive no matter what.  Just like Cirba did for years with the legend of the overseas trip!  Just like TEPaul, Wayne and Cirba did with the legend of Merion buying the land in 1909 or before!  Just like they have done with false portrayals and character assassination of H.J. Whigham!  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff,

Is it in any way significant to you that the committee only took CBM / HJW to one site?

Also, for the Dallas deed to be transferred in October, when do you think they verbally agreed with the executor of Mr. Dallas' estate to buy his land? August?



Jim,

Not at all, even if David's events happen to be the correct interpretation.

They were going to buy land along the main line, where they were going to locate the course because their membership already lived there (unlike NGLA where CBM would develop the membership, and even then, being too far out was a consideration)

They got a sweetheart offer for land at sub-market value from a developer.  Would you take CBM to some other land that would cost you 2-3X to build your golf course?   Frankly, the land was good for golf, but just gently rolling like most other land along the main line.  There were no alternate ocean front or Pine Valley sites to choose from where they were committed to build.

This is how most golf course deals in history go down.  It is just wrong to compare the unique NGLA model to other courses, and even if you did, please recall that CBM first offered on 120 acres WITHOUT doing a routing plan that he mentioned.  He lucked into the ideal situation, but he didn't expect it.  We do not know just how much evaluation of that 120 acres he did, but I suspect it was a lot like what happened at Merion, making sure it was of regular dimensions, making sure it enclosed some good features to use, and probably, leaving some wiggle room.

I agree that they were talking, secretively through their buyer about the land for a long time, and the deal was announced earlier than the actual purchase, which I thought was in October, but Mike corrects me that it was November, when things then obviously started moving quickly.

The question is whether they would have sent the surveyors out there, etc.  I wouldn't say the actual sale date precudes earlier work, but do believe the secretiveness they used might - if word got out, the seller could always change their mind until the names were on the dotted line.

Mike,

Your parsing of Francis words makes sense to me, but like the swallows returning to Capistrano, David has come out to tell us just how evil you are in twisting yet another bit of the Merion records.  BTW, did you notice that when I impolitely caught him changing the record, he doesn't even mention it, apolgize, whatever?  Like everything else, he just ignores the inconvenient truth.

BTW, from the private emails we have all been getting, it appears that David has finally pissed off Merion enough for them to undertake their own point by point rebuttal.  It might be as logical a spot as any to hand off the battle to those more closely invested in what David has been saying about them all these past few years.

I thhink you hae done your job!  Time to bow out because there is no sense being a diaper to the baby that is David.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

It was a pussy move.

You don't assign credit after everyone else is dead.

If you felt CBM was the true author of Merion, which NO ONE ever said was the case prior, he had 30 years and multiple major tournaments to cough it up and have that discussion.

Instead, he pussied out, and then buried it deeper than Osama bin Laden, hoping no one who knew better would notice.

But Jeff is correct...it's time to move on.   Good luck getting anyone besides Mucci and MacWood to believe your specious theories, but you may first want to tell the latter that Barker didn't design Merion during his December train ride if you're going to credit CBM and consider that the former has a man-crush on CBM deeper and stronger than a post-pubescent girl on Justin Bieber.  

Adieu.

Jim,

You can't swap land that you don't own.   Nor can you swap that land for other land if the whole property is open to having the boundaries subsequently defined with a fixed acreage limit.

I think we've made our points and hanging around this thread any longer is not going to be productive.

Thanks.

[JESII]

Jeff,

The point of my question was...if they were looking for CBM to select the parcel for them, they would have taken him to more than one. I think they knew this is where they were going and were happy to have his affirmation...little else.

Why do you think the land they bought was "sub-market value"? They do say the ~$750 an acre was half the average or somehting like that, but this particular 120 acres would have been well less desireable than the rest of the plot, no? A quarry! Low lying and creek infested! I think better for golf AND worse for housing.



Mike,

"We" didn't own the land until July 1911.

[DMoriarty]

Would you tell HJW's great grandchilden that that their grandfather was a pussy and a liar, Mike?  

Just imagine the reaction if tried to assassinate the character Hugh Wilson or call him names like this!  

 
All you guys have is name calling and character assassination and lies.  That's what has happened toward CBM and HJW for years, and what Mike, TEPaul, and Wayne have been doing with me for years.  If you want your man to stand tall, just try to knock down everyone else.  
_____________________________________________

Can anyone come up with any legitimate reason for discarding Whigham's words?     Mike obviously cannot.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Mike,

Not really wanting to prolong this, and am repeating a point I made before, but at lunch, I re-read George Bahto's book and he notes Raynor was hired in 1910, and the Piping Rock and Sleep Hollow designs started then, with construction going on the next two years.  How does that tie in?

Did HJW just recall working somehow on all three that year and lump them together?

On the other side, if CBM had actively assisted and advised many clubs prior, but started fully designing courses at the same time, was Merion simply the last assist he did without full control? (George reports frustrations at both PR and SH) with members limiting his input and directing his designs in different ways)

So, we can add "CBM never took credit at nearly the exact same time he did take credit for other courses" to the litany of people who say he just advised them.  And, as David reminds us, CBM was there and an active participant!

To be fair, it seems that David is (IMHO) fixating on the title of adviser over designer.  But, perhaps there was a real reason given the timing of him starting his full time work with Raynor that CBM himself preferred to be credited that way, no?

[JESII]

Yes David, I can.

Because they are in significant contradiction to the material at the time written and said by everyone else involved.

It's worth saying, this is only discarding your interpretation of Wigham's words...there's every chance he knew exactly what CBM did for/at Merion and it's exactly what Merion has always credited him with.

Why would CBM go from "calling all the shots" in April 1911 to never showing up again? The construction phase lasted a while if I'm not mistaken...

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Good point and the last sentence or yours is related to my post just above yours.

Why would CBM do that on what would arguably be his first CBM-Raynor collaboration.  Why wasn't Raynor ever there, despite having just been hired by CBM at the same time?  I suppose its possible that CBM offered to do the whole job, but pulled back when the two closer jobs swamped Raynor's capabilities.

Or, MCC simply signed on before Raynor, when CBM was in the adivse and assist mode for so many other clubs.  Why is it so hard to believe that if he did it for dozens of friends (and Lloyd was at least an acquaintence) that he didn't do it at Merion?

HJW words are interesting but taken in an analysis of all other facts, certainly cannot be taken as the last word on the matter. 

[JESII]

My reading of CBM's June 29th letter is that of a man happy to have visited and to give some advice, but not actively involved.

Ironically, the timeline that has all work taking place in January - April 1911 puts alot more weight onto David's argument in my opinion...but that's just an opinion...

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

CBM himself tells us exactly what courses he designed after the National soft-opened in July 1910 in chronological order.   Not surprisingly, he doesn't mention Merion.

[Terry Lavin]

I think we've made our points and hanging around this thread any longer is not going to be productive.

Something tells me that north of 1000 people hereabouts are in complete agreement with that statement!

Adieu.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I noticed that George credited the hire of Raynor to 1910, and it took two years for construction, as opposed to one for Merion.  Not sure if that was due to the more excessive earthworks at a true CBM course, bad luck, or maybe, while committed in 1910, design work really didn't get started until 1911.

Again, CBM was there.  He says what he says. He doesn't say what he doesn't say.

Doesn't it take a fantastic imagination to ignore CBM, and take HJW's word over CBM's writings?

I think so, but obviously one person differs.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Terry,

Obviously yes.

It gets to be an interesting dilemma.  Do we let David's statements go (and to be fair, him let ours go) and hope they will be ignored (like Obama and the birth records) or do we go Bill Clinton style, and set up the war room to refute anything written within an hour or two?

Obviously, we went with the Clinton option.

[DMoriarty]

Yes David, I can.

Because they are in significant contradiction to the material at the time written and said by everyone else involved.

Jim I wish you would lay this all out for me because I don't think that Whigham contradicts anyone actually involved!   

And I don't mean just parading out all of Cirba's tangential articles.  I mean listing and explaining where those involved are in significant contradiction with H.J. Whigham on the issue.   And if possible addressing my explanations as to why this is not the case.

That is what I have done with each of these questions and issues over the years, and I'd like to see someone on the other side actually try the same.   Not with Brauer's broad brush or with Cirba's unsupportable claims or lists, but an actual intelligent presentation of where THOSE AT MERION WHO WERE INVOLVED contradict Whigham's assertion or my paper.

That isn't too much to ask, is it?   

As an aside, I came across and considered the Whigham Eulogy rather late in the process.  It is buried in the back of George's book and I don't have access to the old Country Life magazines so I had never seen it.  My theories were in place without Whigham, and based almost entirely on the very documents you claim contradict Whigham.    That is what blows my mind.   It is as if we are reading different documents.    Everyone pointed to CBM/HJW showing the way and Wilson doing the work on the ground and you guys see it as someone excluding CBM and HJW! 

It's worth saying, this is only discarding your interpretation of Wigham's words...there's every chance he knew exactly what CBM did for/at Merion and it's exactly what Merion has always credited him with.

I don't get this.  I don't think there is much controversial about my interpretation.   Merion is included in a list of famous courses designed by CBM and/or Raynor or both.  So what am I missing?

Why would CBM go from "calling all the shots" in April 1911 to never showing up again? The construction phase lasted a while if I'm not mistaken...

Because he wasn't interested in building a course in Philadelphia. CBM/HJW had helped them design it and left them to it.  He wasn't a professional architect or even a full time amateur architect.  He had a day job in New York City and he spent much of his time on Long Island.   He was getting his clubhouse built and tinkering with NGLA and was or soon would be helping Piping Rock and Sleepy Hollow with their courses.   

I never said he built the course, did I?   But, by the way, we do know that during construction he was still involved and communicating with Hugh Wilson because Wilson forwarded one of his letters (a letter suggesting earlier correspondence) to Piper Oakley.  We don't have the Wilson CBM correspondence, only suggestions of it and an example from the Piper Oakley Letters.  But we do know how much Hugh Wilson liked to write letters, so it is difficult to imagine there were only these few. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

But Jeff is correct...it's time to move on.   Good luck getting anyone besides Mucci and MacWood to believe your specious theories, but you may first want to tell the latter that Barker didn't design Merion during his December train ride if you're going to credit CBM and consider that the former has a man-crush on CBM deeper and stronger than a post-pubescent girl on Justin Bieber.  

Mike, you might recall that I differed with David, early on, regarding CBM's involvement with Merion.

But, How do you explain the original 10th hole at Merion if Macdonald wasn't involved in the design ?

How do you explain the existance of the other CBM template holes at Merion.

Jim,

You can't swap land that you don't own.

Actually, you can, under conditonal agreements  

Nor can you swap that land for other land if the whole property is open to having the boundaries subsequently defined with a fixed acreage limit.

I think we've made our points and hanging around this thread any longer is not going to be productive.

Why are you so anxious to force the termination of this thread ?

Threads die of disinterest or due to their shelf life expiring.

Let this thread expire of natural causes, and not a mandate from parties with a vested interest.

Would you shut down a Justin Bieber concert during intermission ?

This thread and the history of Merion reminds me of a quote alleged by Mao Tse Tung, when asked about the consequences of the French Revolution, he responded, "it's too early to tell"

Let things play themselves out without any assisstance from anyone

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()