[JESII]

Jim,

I guess under the light of analysis and known facts, I'd be hard-pressed to tell you any part of the October 15th article that's particularly accurate, other than CBM was considering locations in the Shinnecock Hills, but even there it's not very enlightening.

Mike,

You've just been agreeing with me that it's likely that the land being described was all of Alvord's holding north or the RR tracks with the exception of being on the fence (better than disagreeing) about Sebonac Neck...and the details of that article came tru a mere two months later and yet you have the ability to say you don't see any accuracy in it???




David,

A canal is a man-made inlet. This particular canal had been an inlet a mere 15 years earlier. You can stretch in an effort to see the inlet a half mile from the train tracks AND a mile and a half from your golf course but you still miss two of the four descriptors in that snippet. Good luck.

[DMoriarty]

David,

A canal is a man-made inlet. This particular canal had been an inlet a mere 15 years earlier. You can stretch in an effort to see the inlet a half mile from the train tracks AND a mile and a half from your golf course but you still miss two of the four descriptors in that snippet. Good luck.

A canal is a canal, especially when it is named "Shinnecock Canal" and well known as "Shinnecock Canal."  As I understand the history, this was solid ground 20 years before.  The RR reportedly passed through on 10 ft. embankment.   If this was ever called an inlet, I've been unable to find and example of it.

Earlier you accused me of acting like Mike, a low blow if I ever heard one. I won't resort to that, but I will note that you are now adopting his tactics here by measuring from the course when we are all agreed that the description was of a larger land mass, either all the land north of the RR or Sebonack Neck.  It doesn't take a tape measure to see that Sebonac Neck stretches out along Peconic Bay to a point near the inlet.  

[JESII]

But doesn't come close to the tracks and is not to the west of Shinnecock GC...that's two out of four with one of the other two a pretty good stretch as well...the larger land mass assumption must meet most of the criteria and your's (Sebonac Neck) doesn't.

[Bryan Izatt]

Just to reconcile the 4 acres by 2 miles description from December, here is a map with an outline that is about 2 miles on the eastern edge, 4 (square) acres wide in the southern end and with a quarter of a mile along Peconic Bay.  Maybe CBM got some things right.

[DMoriarty]

Thanks Bryan.

_____________________________

Jim, I don't know . . . weren't you the guy who didn't want to turn these descriptions into exact meets and bounds?  Because you seem to be making a number of specific judgments about the exact meaning of some pretty vague words, and your judgments by no means encompass the full range of reasonable judgments.

1.  I think Mike and I are in agreement that the southern point of NGLA is about 1/3 of a mile from the tracks, yet you pronounce that NGLA doesn't come close to the RR tracks.   So what in your mind would be close to the tracks without being right next to them?  How close does the land have to come to the tracks to skirt the tracks?  How about a 1/4 away of a mile like the Shinnecock Inn, NGLA's temporary Clubhouse?   Is a couple hundred yards close enough?  I've lived about a 1/3 of a mile from a RR line, and it seemed pretty damn close to me.

2. You also wrote that NGLA was not west of SHGC.  I disagree.  Even Mike has admitted that part of NGLA was directly west of part of Shinnecock, and I think Mike is wrong about how far north SHGC extended, and produced an  article indicating as much. I've asked Mike to provide the basis for his bald claims, but of course he hasn't.    Surely you don't read the article as requiring that every bit of NGLA be directly west of SHGC, do you?  That hardly seems consistent with your idea of reading these articles referencing a general area.  Part of the eastern border of NGLA adjoined SHGC to the west.  What else do you require?

Don't get me wrong, I think I understand the basis for your opinion.  But I am pretty sure Google Earth was still a few years off and I just don't think that anyone was out there with a tape measure calculating the exact distance to the RR tracks, or with a compass mapping out the furthest eastern edge of NGLA to see if any of it might extend slightly east of the portion of NGLA adjoining SHGC.

In other words, it is a newspaper article, probably written by someone relying on someone else's description of the general location of the course.   So I don't attach specific measurements to words like "near" or "skirted."  If it generally makes sense and might give me an idea where the course was, then I think I am on the right track.  This was land stretching along Peconic Bay and its westerly point was near the inlet, it was adjacent to SHGC to the east, and was fairly close to but not right at the RR tracks.  Close enough for me.  And when I read the rest of the article and all the other details about what was ongoing, then I am more convinced.   And when I consider CBM's description of what happened in Scottland's Gift, then I am even more  convinced. And when I consider the timing and what happened 60 days later, moreso.   (By the way, I wonder what a normal escrow period was back then.)

In case you are wondering, Bryan's depiction above has the southern point at about 480 yards from the tracks, a bit over 1/4 mile.  Close enough, or not even close?  

[Bryan Izatt]

Re the location of the inlet, here is the 1903 USGS map that includes Good Ground to the west.  You'll see that Good Ground is a hamlet that is the same location as the train station of the same name.  So, it doesn't matter if the text meant the hamlet, or the station; they are basically in the same area.  Good Ground does not appear to extend to the east because Newton gets in the way.

The Cold Springs Pond inlet is pretty much in between Good Ground and the Shinnecock train station.  

I'm inclined to agree with David on the point that the inlet could have meant the whole pond.  An inlet can be a body of water that is indented into the surrounding land.  Burrard Inlet and Cook Inlet are two large examples.




As an alternate theory to the location of the October article, it seems to me that CBM might have said that he was looking at 450 acres to find the 205 acres he needed and the reporter mistakenly combined the two into 250 acres.  If it was really meant to say 450 acres, then here is a tract of land on Sebonac Neck that is 450 acres and stretches along Peconic Bay, adjoins SHGC on its eastern edge at the south end, has the (larger) inlet as its western end, and has the LIRR skirting (1000 feet) from the southern end.  Remember that CBM said he wanted a quiet property away from traffic and trains, so skirting to him might have meant 1000 feet.  The canal makes no sense to me as the western boundary - it was there for more than 20 years and even in 1903 is clearly labeled as a canal, not an inlet.

I think this tract of land is more plausible than the whole of the Alvord property north of the track.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Some nice work and I'll have more comments later, but your location of the Shinnecock Hills Trail Station is off by quite a bit.   You might want to re-check that.

Thanks

[JESII]

David,

I'm not trying to be overly specific. I simply think the very general descriptors in that article need to be stretched on three of the four reference points for it to describe only what you and Bryan are suggesting. I think it's very likely the agreement CBM and Alvord had at that point WAS IN FACT FOR what you guys are describing but that the description was for the entire area.

I think it benefits Alvord for the agreement to be publicized as would advertising his entire holding...

I think the common understanding of the word inlet is that it's a connection between two bodies of water...not an indented body of water such as a bay or harbor.

[JESII]

By the way...I'd be curious where you found a definition of "skirt" to mean anything similar to what you guys are implying because all I could find made it clear that "to skirt" is to narrowly avoid something while creating a border with it.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

I've approximated the location of Shinnecock Station with a blue X.

It was 1.2 miles west of the "Golf Grounds" station at Shinnecock Hills GC.

Hope that helps....thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

On the issue of "skirting", please see what i wrote to David earlier below;


David,

I'm not sure we agree on where those articles refer to.  

Perhaps we need some outside, independent definitions and please feel free to add your own.

I thought about this as I read your description of how you think the Sebonac Neck site that CBM eventually ended up with fit into the parameters described in the article.

I'm particularly interested in the fact that you believe the current course site, or the Sebonac Neck site, was somehow able to "skirt" the Long Island Railroad at any point, so let's start there.

skirt·ed, skirt·ing, skirts
v.tr.
1. To lie along or form the edge of; border: the creek that skirts our property.
2. To pass around rather than across or through: changed their course to skirt the storm.
3. To pass close to; miss narrowly: The bullet skirted an artery.
4. To evade, as by circumlocution: skirted the controversial issue.
v.intr.
To lie along, move along, or be an edge or a border.


The southern edge of NGLA today is about .35 mile from the Long Island Railroad.

I know you argued that the land could have been further south, but that really doesn't make sense as it would have had to include the Shinnecock Inn just a couple of hundred yards south, and any further than that it would have had to actually include land of the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, land which actually DID "skirt" the Long Island Railroad.

Below on your original overlay I've approximated the location of Shinnecock Hills GC at that time in Yellow, indicated the LIRR in Purple, and the Shinnecock Inn in Blue.

I fail to see how any of the land of Sebonac Neck could have "skirted" the Long Island Railroad.   Actually, CBM sort of makes my point for me, as he tells us how the site he DID eventually purchase "skirted" Bulls Head Bay for a mile, which of course it does.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

I appreciate your effort at estimating the 450 acre tract known as Sebonac Neck and think it's probably pretty close to what the reality was.

In that regard, by definition the October article could NOT have been talking only about Sebonac Neck, as the location of the Shinnecock Station was actually along the western edge of the property boundary you drew, almost due south from there.

When the article states that the western edge of the property was near the canal between Shinnecock Station and Good Ground then we certainly KNOW that point is west of the tract of land you've estimated as the 450 acres of Sebonac Neck, yes?

[JESII]

Mike,

We haven't convinced them yet that the canal was the INLET referred to in the article. You wrote canal in that post there...

The Cold Spring Inlet is a bit west of their Western boundary, no?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Yes, if memory serves the Cold Spring inlet is about .75 miles. From the western edge of the land encircled on Bryan's map and 1.5 miles from the western edge of NGLA.

[JESII]

David,

Along the lines of "why wouldn't the author just say 'the canal' if that's what he were referring to?"...why wouldn't he say Cold Spring Pond?

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Point taken on the location of Shinnecock station.  I was confusing it with Golf Ground station, which was actually called Shinnecock station when it was resurrected for the Open at Shinnecock Hills.  In any event, the inlet to Cold Springs Pond is still between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station; although it is closer to Shinnecock than Good Ground.  But, then the article doesn't say that the inlet is in the middle, does it.

The article does say that the western boundary is "near" the inlet, not at the inlet.  Let's not parse the word "near".  The 450 acres I drew could be construed to be near the inlet.

As to skirting, let's keep in mind that the article says that the RR skirts the property.  That seems at least grammatically incorrect to me since it suggests that the railroad came after the golf course and was routed to bypass the course.  Your definition "2. To pass around rather than across or through: changed their course to skirt the storm." is the meaning that I would guess was in the mind of the writer of the article.  Interesting example in the definition, skirting a storm.  Would you want to skirt a storm at a good distance, rather than just miss it on the very edge?  Given that CBM didn't want to be near traffic or the RR I'd guess he wanted to have the RR skirt the property by a goodly distance - say, 1000 feet.

[Bryan Izatt]

David,

Along the lines of "why wouldn't the author just say 'the canal' if that's what he were referring to?"...why wouldn't he say Cold Spring Pond?

Beats me.  Why use a vague term like inlet when there are two named landmarks, the canal and the pond, available.  Maybe he didn't know the area and forgot to write down the names of the landmarks?  Maybe the name of the pond was not well known to him or his readers so he didn't use it?  The canal on the other hand was a well known significant construction project from 20 years before.

[DMoriarty]

David,

Along the lines of "why wouldn't the author just say 'the canal' if that's what he were referring to?"...why wouldn't he say Cold Spring Pond?

Jim,

As I said, I don't think the name of "Cold Spring Pond/Bay/Harbor/Inlet/whatever-it-is" was well known and that article reads as if whoever came up with the description didn't know its name so they just described it by location.  (It is a bit confusing especially bc there is another Cold Spring Harbor on LI.)   In contrast, the Shinnecock Canal was a well known landmark along the southern arm of Long Island.  It is referenced repeatedly in newspapers, in driving guides, in histories, even in fiction and legend.  There would be no need to characterize it by reference to a RR station two miles away.  

[Andy Hughes]

Man, you guys are doing some serious parsing.  The great majority of the readers most likely had never been anywhere near Shinnecock, and perhaps the writers hadn't either.  Would it make any real difference to the readers if the canal was the inlet, or if the inlet was a pond?  Making assumptions based on a writer who didn't know the area well, writing for people who didn't know the area at all, and then running with what you think he might have meant by the word 'skirt' 100 years ago?
Boys, come back!

[Mike Cirba]

Ok...I'll come back first, Andy.   


If the October 15th article was accurate, and the writer meant Sebonac Neck, and it meant that CBM had somehow secured land on Sebonac Neck by that point...

then why, a few weeks later at the Lesley Cup matches at Garden City would CBM tell folks that he was down to two sites...the first in western Shinnecock HIlls near Good Ground, and the second in Montauk?

If it was already a done deal for Sebonac Neck at that point, why the need for spreading disinformation?

If it was already a done deal for Sebonac Neck at that point, why even mention the Canal Site in western Shinnecock Hills at all??

[DMoriarty]

Andy,  I agree, although the person who provided the information the reporter must have had some general familiarity with the area.  

But I do agree that the whole endeavor with the word parsing is absurd.  But this is what happens again and again when Mike chooses his preconceived conclusions over the most obvious, reasonable, and straightforward interpretations of the source material.  

Keep in mind that Mike was in agreement that these articles indicated that, more likely than not, CBM was already considering the current site by October, and that the only reason we are going through all this is he refused to consider how this impacted his other conclusions.  

It is too much.  A waste of time and energy.  I have better things to do.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim,

CBM references the "Shinnecock Canal, as being the canal that CONNECTS Peconic Bay with Shinnecock Bay,

There's only one waterway that does that, the Shinnecock Canal.

[JESII]

Ok...I'll come back first, Andy.    


If the October 15th article was accurate, and the writer meant Sebonac Neck, and it meant that CBM had somehow secured land on Sebonac Neck by that point...

then why, a few weeks later at the Lesley Cup matches at Garden City would CBM tell folks that he was down to two sites...the first in western Shinnecock HIlls near Good Ground, and the second in Montauk?

If it was already a done deal for Sebonac Neck at that point, why the need for spreading disinformation?

If it was already a done deal for Sebonac Neck at that point, why even mention the Canal Site in western Shinnecock Hills at all??

Mike,

Your biggest problem with holding the November 1 articles as true and the October  one as fiction is that the October 1 came true very soon thereafter...all this word parsing aside, it happened.


Also...it wouldn't have been a done deal because nothing had been signed and no money had changed hands...

[JESII]

Bryan,

I think just skirting the storm is the goal. If it's in a fixed location, why would you add 100 feet to your radius rather than just going around the edge of it?

EDIT: 1,000 feet!

[JESII]

Regarding the inlet/canal debate...you guys make good points about the name of the canal, but the other factors make me feel pretty comfortable that he was speaking of the whole area. He was just so non-specific. Hate to say it Andy, but the word "skirted" is my anchor on this.

I think the agreement was for a portion of Sebonac Neck which CBM would locate specifically in the next two months but the descriptors were for a much larger area.

Nobody has answered my question about the likelyhood of Alvord leaking the deal...prematurely...isn't he, or his associates, the most likey source? He's got the most to gain and nothing to lose.

[Tags:]

Tags:

[Tags:]

Tags:

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()