[Bryan Izatt]

I'm a little behind on this, but wanted to quickly revisit the 4 acres by 2 miles description of the property in December.  Here is a picture with one possible tract based on an acre width being 208 feet (square acre) and another based on an acre width being a furlong.  The former makes an area of 202 acres, the latter 640 acres.

Perhaps CBM was using the measures as a general description of the total area, not the precise dimensions of the length and width.  Or, Charley was really bad at math and mapping.  Or he was misquoted yet again. 

Neither looks very good if the dimensions are taken literally.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Or, it could simply mean that CBM didn't know the exact dimensions of his purchase yet, EXACTLY as he was quoted as saying in December 1906 after securing 205 undetermined acres of 450 available.    

Thanks.

Jim,

Let me think more on your theory.   I'll try to respond more later, but I do think that much like CBM related, the first offer was followed in short order by a second offer for the Sebonac Neck site.

It's an unfortunate place for a Page Break in CBM's book, but re-reading that portion across both pages leads me to believe that the Sebonac Neck site was almost offered as a consolation prize and didn't happen a year later, but instead in quick succession.

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

Obviously you didn't like the answers to those questions based on YOUR OWN previous understanding of the facts, so once again you simply rewrite the factual record to fit with your current agenda.  So after months of agreeing that the "inlet" was the "inlet," now the 'inlet' was obviously the canal?   Fascinating.  But the twisting doesn't stop there.  Last week you informed us that the October articles contained CBM'S OWN WORDS, as if CBM himself had written the articles.   This week they are so seriously flawed that you change the meaning of just about every word in them!    Which is it?

This is much like what happened last time I asked you questions you couldn't answer.  You just changed all the facts!  Yet you wonder why you have been called disingenuous.

It ought to be apparent to everyone by now that you have little interest in what really happened.  This is rhetoric for you.  You will claim anything if you think it might suit your point, and change just as quickly once you have a different point to make.  You are not even worth addressing.  
_________________________________________________________________


Jim,  

1.  I really don't understand how you can conclude that the CANAL was actually the inlet, especially because there was an actual INLET fitting the description.   The actual inlet was only a few hundred yards from the RR and judging from the elevations I think it would have been quite visible from the train.   So I don't understand why you don't consider it the landmark in question.  

2.  I understand why you don't want to treat the description as an sort of exact meets and bounds, and I agree with you.    It was generally describing the location of the course using somewhat familiar landmarks.  I think those landmarks were Peconic Bay, SHGC, the RR line, and the inlet.  You think those landmarks were SHGC, the RR line, and the canal.    So far as I understand your position, it only differs from mine in that you think the land described was somewhere east of the canal, which you think was mistakenly referred to as an inlet, and I think the course was somewhere east of the inlet, which I think was correctly referred to as an inlet.  

_________________________________________________________

Bryan,  

My assumption is that the two miles referred to either the distance along the outward segment of the golf course (which is about 2 miles) or the distance along Peconic Bay, then along Bullshead Bay to the Eden Green, to the 18th, which is also about 2 miles.   Obviously, because this is not really a length for area purposes, this is going to throw off his math regarding the estimated width.  

[Andy Hughes]

His dream golf course, had been thinking and planning for years about doing this. He has some of the richest people around willing to hand over cash. He himself purchased a huge property just across the water and could afford to build a huge/stunning estate with all sorts of amenities.

And yet, when the time comes to pull the trigger he is going to let something like the location of the Shinnecock Inn determine where his holes will go and what land he will use? Where he will place his first hole?

This has never made sense to me.

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

Yet, CBM tells us in his own words that this was the case, and the contemporaneous news articles say much the same thing.

I think the issue was simply this;   CBM didn't know exactly how much play he'd get on a regular basis (mostly on weekends) given the distance from NYC or how quickly the membership would grow, so since the Shinnecock Inn was already being planned, it meant he could hedge his bets.

The only downside to that approarch is that it largely dictated the general shape of his routing, with both the first and final holes needing to be located 1.45 miles (as the crow flies) from Peconic Bay.  

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Simply looking at the locations of Good Ground and Shiinnecock Station on that 1914 map is the cause for thinking the inlet was the Canal.   Just because it's a canal doesn't mean it isn't also an inlet, because it clearly is.

Jim convinced me that the author of the article (and I still believe he got his description of the area directly from CBM) was speaking about SH&PCRC's holdings north of the railroad tracks.

Whether that description included Sebonac Neck at that time I'm uncertain, and dubious based on the reasons I shared with Jim above.

If I wasn't interested in the topic I'd certainly never spend this much time on it.    

[JESII]

Jim,  

1.  I really don't understand how you can conclude that the CANAL was actually the inlet, especially because there was an actual INLET fitting the description.   The actual inlet was only a few hundred yards from the RR and judging from the elevations I think it would have been quite visible from the train.   So I don't understand why you don't consider it the landmark in question.  

2.  I understand why you don't want to treat the description as an sort of exact meets and bounds, and I agree with you.    It was generally describing the location of the course using somewhat familiar landmarks.  I think those landmarks were Peconic Bay, SHGC, the RR line, and the inlet.  You think those landmarks were SHGC, the RR line, and the canal.    So far as I understand your position, it only differs from mine in that you think the land described was somewhere east of the canal, which you think was mistakenly referred to as an inlet, and I think the course was somewhere east of the inlet, which I think was correctly referred to as an inlet.  

David,

How would you describe the differences between a canal and an inlet?

[Mike Cirba]

An inlet is a narrow body of water between islands or leading inland from a larger body of water, often leading to an enclosed body of water, such as a sound, bay, lagoon or marsh. In sea coasts an inlet usually refers to the actual connection between a bay and the ocean and is often called an "entrance" or a recession in the shore of a sea, lake or river. A certain kind of inlet created by glaciation is a fjord, typically but not always in mountainous coastlines and also in montane lakes.

Complexes of large inlets or fjords may be called sounds, e.g. Puget Sound, Howe Sound, Karmsund (sund is Norwegian for "sound"). Some fjord-type inlets are called canals, e.g. Portland Canal, Lynn Canal, Hood Canal, and some are channels, e.g. Dean Channel, Douglas Channel. - Wikipedia

[Mike Cirba]

http://marinas.com/view/inlet/669_Shinnecock_Canal_North_Inlet_Canoe_Place_NY

http://marinas.com/view/inlet/670_Shinnecock_Canal_South_Inlet_Canoe_Place_NY

http://www.history.rochester.edu/canal/bib/whitford/old1906/chapter12.htm

[Andy Hughes]

Andy,

Yet, CBM tells us in his own words that this was the case, and the contemporaneous news articles say much the same thing.

Mike, yep, I know, CBM certainly did write that. Just not sure I buy it. 1) They certainly could afford to build a clubhouse if they really wanted to (besides this being a group of wealthy men, CBM himself was a man of means---and they were able to afford a clubhouse when they needed to) and 2) his big dream and major decisions are going to be held hostage to some extent by the trivial cost of a clubhouse?

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

This November 1st, 1906 article in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle speaks a little more about the clubhouse considerations;

[JESII]

Just my two cents on the topic of the clubhouse, but it seems these guys were known as much for their frugality as for their business success...perhaps interrelated...

In the two or three of these historical conversations/debates I've participated in it's consistent that while most of the members could seemingly fund a clubhouse themselves, that wasn't the issue. It was whether they should fund it themselves as opposed to setting up a sustainable model...



David,

How would you differentiate between inlets and canals?

[DMoriarty]

Mike,

As usual your selection of "facts" to support your argument is beyond suspect.   We don't need to look at a 1914 map - one you have held up as obviously inaccurate - to learn the location of the inlet as compared to Shinnecock Hills Station!   And you have apparently forgotten that YOU WROTE that early last century "Good Ground" included an area well east of the canal:

Bryan,

I'm not sure if you ever read the following, posted well back in the early pages of this thread;


The entire hamlet of Hampton Bays, seen in the map below, was known at the beginning of the 20th century as "Good Ground".

The hamlet was settled in 1740 as "Good Ground", which became the main hamlet of eleven in the immediate area. The area where Main Street, also known as Montauk Highway, is located today, was the approximate area of the original hamlet known as Good Ground.

There were ten other hamlets in the area. The other hamlets in the area were called Canoe Place, East Tiana, Newtown, Ponquogue, Rampasture, Red Creek, Squiretown, Southport, Springville, and West Tiana. Most of these hamlets were settled by one or two families and had their own school house. Many of the names from the former hamlets are still featured as local street names today, as well as Hagstroms maps and Road Atlases.

As a result of the growth of the surrounding hamlets and villages in the Hamptons and increased tourism from New York City, the eleven hamlets, although generally called "Good Ground" collectively by the early part of the 20th century, amalgamated under the name "Hampton Bays" in 1922. The motive behind the name change was for the hamlet to benefit from the "Hamptons" trade that the hamlet's neighbors were experiencing.

Here is the area that was known as "Good Ground" in the early 20th century.

So, using YOUR UNDERSTANDING of the location of Good Ground, and a Google Earth Image showing Shinnecock Hills Station (red dot), let's see if there are any inlets between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station:



So far as I can tell there is only one inlet, the one above INLET ROAD.

And Mike, the Shinnecock Canal is not a fjord.   For you to suggest it is absurd. 

______________________________________________________________

Jim,

I am no expert on canals or inlets.  As I understand it, canals are manmade waterways built to move boats, people or sometimes just water from one point to another.  Generally, inlets are relatively narrow openings or entry points, sometimes leading to an inland body of water, sometimes not.  (If narrow enough, the entire inland body of water might be called an inlet.)

But for me the key factor in this case is to look at what the two bodies of water were called in the context of the time.  The Shinnecock Canal is a man-made canal and was and is commonly known as the Shinnecock Canal.  Likewise, judging from the name of the adjacent road on the 1907 map, the first section of Cold Spring Pond was known as an INLET.   

So far as I know, with the rare exceptionof the glacially formed (and confusingly named) Fjord-type inlets located in the Pacific Northwest, canals are called canals and inlets are called inlets. 

___________________________________________________

Andy,  I agree with you about the clubhouse.   While the Inn provided the convenience of not having to devote the initial resources to the clubhouse, it seems very unlikely that the location had to be tied to a third party Inn.   As was born out, they managed to build a clubhouse when need be.     Plus, the first offer was "near the Canal" which was well away from the Shinnecock Inn. 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Except we KNOW that the November 1st articles tell us that CBM was quoted as saying the land that was the "westerly strip of Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground" was still in play.

We KNOW where Shinnecock Hills was, and it was part Alvord's purchase that extended to the canal in the west.

I think after Alvord made his purchase there was no question about what area was called what, or where the "westerly strip of Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground" was located.

[JESII]

David,

You haven't bought into a single interpretation Mike has made in about 5 years on here and now his suggestion that the geographic region called Good Ground extended that far East is Gospel...not quite. Any objective reading of that passage while looking at a basic map will conclude that the referenced landmark was the canal. Do you think the canal may have been an inlet 15 year earlier before the banks were dug out a little bit? Did this canal have locks? I've driven over it and believe it may have a lock right now, but not sure when it arrived.

In any event, the October snippet does not possibly read as a specific site...yours or Mike's...

[JESII]

David,

Another problem with your interpretation of which inlet was referenced is that the author would have been viewing it from their car on the North Highway yet describing it in relation to at least on train station...this is an inconsistency Mike might be proud of but I can't figure out. You guys do the same thing with this stuff. The train tracks were/are 850 yards away.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,  

Whether through chronic carelessness or intentional deception on your part, almost all your posts contain misrepresentations of the source material.    

1.  CBM was NOT QUOTED in the November 1, 1901 article at all.  And a report from the same instance, written the same day in a different paper, provided a different version of the same event.  The Brooklyn Daily Eagle - the paper you insist had the best information on the course -   reported that CBM "said that he had inspected land for the ideal links project in various sections around Peconic Bay and Shinnecock Hills" and that this "admission" had been printed "as far back as last spring."

Did you get that?   VARIOUS SECTIONS AROUND PECONIC BAY AND SHINNECOCK HILLS.   I suppose that this must be read as excluding the Sebonack Neck portion as well?

2.  You also disingenuously state that "we KNOW where Shinnecock Hills was," as if this was at issue.   The issue is the location of the inlet as compared to the "Shinnecock Station" not all of the Shinnecock Hills.  
____________________________________________

Jim,
 
I never said a thing about viewing the inlet from the North Highway.  You are the one who suggested that it had to be looked at in relation to the RR tracks and so I suggested that it seems like it would be readily visible from the train. I had thought the inlet was three or four hundred yards from the railroad tracks, but I just measured it and it seems to be about 500 ft. at its closest point (where the west section of Inlet Road first intersects with the North Highway.)  Your measure was to the mouth, but it sure seems like both the mouth and narrow passage would have been visible from the tracks.  The RR appears to be between approx. 50 and 80 feet elevation as it approaches and passes the inlet, and the grounds appears to slope down to the inlet.  Without trees (and at the time there were few) it would be easily visible.   To put it in perspective, the Alps hill and the Redan tee are both around 40 ft. elevation and Bullshead Bay is about 400-425 yards away.

I don't know exactly what was considered Good Ground and I don't accept Mike's designation of anything as "gospel," which is why I clearly noted that this was Mike's description and not mine.  But surely at least Mike ought to have to live with his own claims!  I don't know exactly where Good Ground started or ended, although I have read references to the "Shinnecock Canal" as being in or at Good Ground.

You wrote:  "Any objective reading of that passage while looking at a basic map will conclude that the referenced landmark was the canal."

Talk about a Cirbaian over-statement!   I challenge you or anyone to find me one historical reference where the Shinnecock Canal was ever referred to as an Inlet!  I've looked at a lot of references and have never seen it!  And why would they reference the Canal with a RR station that was two miles away?   Why not just say "the canal" or "the Shinnecock Canal" as that was how it was known?

You asked:  "Do you think the canal may have been an inlet 15 year earlier before the banks were dug out a little bit?  

No.  This was a canal.  A man made canal.  There is a legend that the indians had a canal there long before, but if true it was long gone.   Reportedly, the RR passed through on a 10 foot embankment.  Canal Construction began in the 1880's and by 1901 they had reportedly spent $225,000 on the Canal and its various gates, a swinging bridge for the highway and a RR bridge for the RR (neither of which were apparently needed before the Canal.)  This doesn't include the cost of a second RR bridge to replace the damaged original.   While the banks were reportedly sandy, by 1901 there was reported a substantial structure below water level.   One of the purposes served was to bring Shinnecock Bay, which had been cut off from the ocean, back into productive health.  (The Shinnecock Inlet was created by the 1938 Hurricane.)See History of the Canal System of the State of New York (1906) by Witford and Beal, on Google Books.  

You asked:  Did this canal have locks? I've driven over it and believe it may have a lock right now, but not sure when it arrived.  

Not sure, but according to Wikipedia the current lock system was built in 1919.  As of 1906 there were gates to control the tides but I am not sure about locks.  

Jim,  the bottom line for me is that the Shinnecock Canal was well known and called the Shinnecock Canal.  It wasn't called an "inlet" and it would have made no sense to call it one or to describe its location by reference to a RR station two miles away!   In contrast, the actual inlet was called an inlet, and no with any reasonable placement of Good Ground, the inlet falls between Good Ground and the Shinnecock Hills Station.  

If they meant "in the Shinnecock Hills north of the RR" the why didn't they say "in the Shinnecock Hills north of the RR."

And Jim, my understanding is no more specific or less specific than your understanding.   We just use different inlets.   Or rather, I use an actual inlet and you use a canal.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

His dream golf course, had been thinking and planning for years about doing this. He has some of the richest people around willing to hand over cash. He himself purchased a huge property just across the water and could afford to build a huge/stunning estate with all sorts of amenities.

And yet, when the time comes to pull the trigger he is going to let something like the location of the Shinnecock Inn determine where his holes will go and what land he will use? Where he will place his first hole?

This has never made sense to me.

No, it doesn't.

But, you have to look at the Shinnecock Inn as his TEMPORARY clubhouse, not the location of a permanent site for the clubhouse, as there was no room for a clubhouse in that area and CBM would never site his clubhouse in the shadow of Shinneocock's clubhouse for a variety of reasons.

I believe that he ALWAYS intended for the clubhouse to be in its present location, again, for a variety of reasons.

The use of a temporary clubhouse is a common occurence.

Just ask the folks at Friars Head and Hidden Creek

[JESII]

David,

I believe you said the inlet was 300 or 400 yards from the tracks at one point in time. I measured it earlier and either the tracks have moved or our measuring devices are way off. The nearest drop of water along there to the tracks is 650 yards and that wouldn't look like an inlet.

The fact is, you've got an interpretation and you're not leaving it but you will not be able to find an objective person to agree with you on this sooner than Tiger Watson invites Shivas to the Isleworth Spring Better Ball...

The snippet must be referring to the entire parcel north of the tracks for all the reasons you and Mike think it cannot be about the others specific parcel...

[DMoriarty]

David,

I believe you said the inlet was 300 or 400 yards from the tracks at one point in time. I measured it earlier and either the tracks have moved or our measuring devices are way off. The nearest drop of water along there to the tracks is 650 yards and that wouldn't look like an inlet.

I may have, but if I did I was mistaken.  The nearest drop of water is about 520 yards, but as I said, even if a half mile at its furthest point, I think the inlet would have been quite visible from a train given the elevation difference. 

The fact is, you've got an interpretation and you're not leaving it but you will not be able to find an objective person to agree with you on this sooner than Tiger Watson invites Shivas to the Isleworth Spring Better Ball..

I considered the possibility that the articles referred to the canal from when I first found the article and I wrote about the possibility, but it just doesn't make sense to me.  The Shinnecock Canal is a canal, not an inlet, and it was commonly known as the "Shinnecock Canal."  I've looked and I have never once found it referred to as an inlet.

So, the fact is, I haven't come off the interpretation because I think mine is the better, more reasonable interpretation.  By far.  As for whether "an objective person" would buy it, that is never my concern.  It certainly wouldn't be the first time I'd stood alone and yet been correct.   Besides, last time he commented, Bryan agreed with me.   Mike agreed with me before last week, but you said an objective person.

The snippet must be referring to the entire parcel north of the tracks for all the reasons you and Mike think it cannot be about the others specific parcel...

What you are saying makes no sense to me.  What is it about Mike's reasons that even remotely applies?

Here are a couple of photos where the canal is visible.  The first one, circa 1903, is looking west at the Shinnecock Hills The RR bridge crosses the canal at an angle, but the canal is visible running across the middle of the right side of the photo.



This second one is circa 1909 and looks to have been taken from near the south mouth of the canal.   Note the title of the photo.   Why would a Canal in Good Ground be described as a inlet between Good Ground and a RR Station two miles away?

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I linked to all of that yesterday, which you might have missed.   Here they are again.

There are actually two "inlets" at the Shinnecock Canal, and you could have saved some time researching and re-typing all of that canal history yesterday if you'd just read the link.

The first two links show the respective inlets at Shinnecock Canal.

The third link is a very comprehensive history of the canal for those inclined to learn more.

http://marinas.com/view/inlet/669_Shinnecock_Canal_North_Inlet_Canoe_Place_NY

http://marinas.com/view/inlet/670_Shinnecock_Canal_South_Inlet_Canoe_Place_NY

http://www.history.rochester.edu/canal/bib/whitford/old1906/chapter12.htm


Also, the November 1st article in the NY Sun said that CBM stated he was still looking at the site near Good Ground in Westerly Shinnecock HIlls.   The Brooklyn Daily Eagle report of the same day didn't contradict this, but simply said that CBM had been looking at "various sections" around Peconic Bay and the Shinnecock Hills, which I'm sure was the case.

I posted both of them above so I'm not sure what is at issue?   They certainly don't confirm the October 15th article that says CBM had already purchased land!

[Andy Hughes]

His dream golf course, had been thinking and planning for years about doing this. He has some of the richest people around willing to hand over cash. He himself purchased a huge property just across the water and could afford to build a huge/stunning estate with all sorts of amenities.

And yet, when the time comes to pull the trigger he is going to let something like the location of the Shinnecock Inn determine where his holes will go and what land he will use? Where he will place his first hole?

This has never made sense to me.

No, it doesn't.

But, you have to look at the Shinnecock Inn as his TEMPORARY clubhouse, not the location of a permanent site for the clubhouse, as there was no room for a clubhouse in that area and CBM would never site his clubhouse in the shadow of Shinneocock's clubhouse for a variety of reasons.

I believe that he ALWAYS intended for the clubhouse to be in its present location, again, for a variety of reasons.

The use of a temporary clubhouse is a common occurence.

Just ask the folks at Friars Head and Hidden Creek

Pat,  I am sure you are right about temporary clubhouses generally. I have seen it as well.  But can you picture the land for Friars Head or Hidden Creek being purchased based on the location of a temporary clubhouse, or the routing itself being based on the location of such a clubhouse?  Either CBM got lucky and the best land available happily happened to follow the flow from the clubhouse's location, or he was content that basing his routing around that location would leave 'good enough' land for him to work with. Or his memoirs written years later may not be fully accurate.

Pat, do you think he designed the course with the assumption that his tenth hole would eventually be his first hole and his ninth would actually be his finishing hole?

[Andy Hughes]

Just my two cents on the topic of the clubhouse, but it seems these guys were known as much for their frugality as for their business success...perhaps interrelated...

In the two or three of these historical conversations/debates I've participated in it's consistent that while most of the members could seemingly fund a clubhouse themselves, that wasn't the issue. It was whether they should fund it themselves as opposed to setting up a sustainable model...

Jim, I tend to agree. But in this case things like what land to purchase and the routing itself were in essence held hostage by the location of the Shinnecock Inn. 

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

As it dictated the position of his starting and closing holes, it certainly had a big impact on what land and routing CBM could use.

Patrick may be correct that CBM wanted to create the clubhouse where it is today all along, but by that point the die was cast, and the routing determined.

The location of the Shinnecock Inn was not a bad spot at all, though, on top of a significant hill, with reasonable access from rail and auto, which I think was his other big consideration that no one thinks about.

As Jeff Brauer mentioned, as pure as we like to think these guys were, most projects including this one have to make some compromises to non-golf realities and practicalities.

[JESII]

David,

Perhaps a better question is what do you think the dot next to the words Good Ground mean on this map?

And then, if you were looking at a map similar to that one and reading the passage that says the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station what would ever make you go all the way to Shinnecock Hills Station before looking a half mile North? I say a half mile because it seems pretty clear that the inlet is the entry point from the larger bady of water and that 800+ yards away from the tracks...have the trackes moved since then? Also, why do you say there were no trees between the tracks and the inlet?

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