[DMoriarty]

I have no doubt he tried to get more water frontage along Great Peconic Bay , and if he could have built 22 or 26 holes, he probably would have taken more!  It is probably a bit more attractive than Sebonac Bay and my impression is that not having Peconic frontage was a practical compromise.  

Once the clubhouse site set the routing, he just couldn't stretch the course far enough to make more use of Great Peconic Bay. He does lament the burning of SI just a few years later, and had he either gotten more money, thought to use a temporary clubhouse (as would be done today) or forseen that fire, I am sure there would be a few more holes along the water than ended up occurring.

However these decisions might have been worked out given today's sensibilities, for CBM the quality of the golf course was the main criteria, not the scenery.  In this regard, while views were nice, a seaside location was a necessity because only a seaside (or sea-approximate) location could provide the proper conditions (such as the proper soil, undulations, winds, etc.)  for ideal golf.  So while views were undoubtedly a bonus, they were not a driving consideration.  

Also, while the location of the Shinnecock Inn was obviously a factor that CBM considered, I think we are kidding ourselves if we pretend he would have have had no other option but to utilize the Inn.  CBM was reportedly an extremely successful and wealthy man around this time, and most of his founders were as wealthy or wealthier.  Had utilizing all of the Peconic Bay frontage been the best move for golf, do you really think that CBM and his millionaire crowd could not have worked it out?    After all, once they decided to to build the clubhouse they managed to work it out, did the not?   Were building along as much water-view property as possible what was really driving CBM, it seems that with his recourses and friends he could have probably worked that out.  

I think a more likely scenario is that the land running south along Bullshead Bay best suite what he had in mind especially given some of the features he identified, and the land extending toward the Inn not only worked very for the course he had in mind, it also allowed him to put off dealing with a clubhouse and let him focus on his main priority --creating his ideal course.  

Or it could be that the developer was reluctant to part with all of the Peconic Bay front property, and thought it might someday have a high value for development.  

_____________________

I had posted that 1873 Atlas before, but I understand why you didn't realize this.   It was about a month ago, the first time Mike took us through the wild goose chase about his mystery third site.  Between then and this time he agreed that the October articles referred to the Sebonack Neck area, before circling back again after after I challenged him to consider how that impacted his main claims.    

That is the problem with Mike's methodology of adamantly pursuing a claim, then jumping away from it when it doesn't go his way, then returning to it later.   People forget the facts and how Mike's fantasies didn't line up with them, and we have the same discussions over and over again.  

For example, here is another article, this one from the December 28, 1905 Brookly Eagle, describing the land and development plans.  Note that according to the article the "main highroad" to Southhampton and SHGC also ran through the property, and the Golf Grounds station already existed.  Yet we've wasted our time debating these very same issues.  



Obviously,  Mike has been wasting or time.  We've covered all this ground - whether Good Ground or Golf Ground - before.

Oh! I'll take the highroad and
Ye'll take the lowroad,
And I'll be in Shinnecock afore ye;
But Mike'll be back te Good Ground
He'll never leave the sand
O' the bonnie, bonnie banks of the Canal.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

I feel very very sad for you.

[DMoriarty]

David,

I feel very very sad for you.

Further proof that about everything you come up with is baseless, misguided, and just plain ridiculous.

[JESII]

Maybe I should have read that article earlier in the thread, assuming it was posted, because it sure makes it clear that the plan was to ramp up the developing of this area immidiately. Under these circumstances I see no reason why CBM would think he had all the time in the world to travel overseas before locking up his preferred location.

When he references his motives a few weeks after Alvord and Co. bought the land, there's no way to separate the 120 acre purchase offer. It must have been simultaneous.

[DMoriarty]

It was posted earlier in the thread, about a month ago.   As I said, we have gone through all the same information twice, which is why I was reluctant to get into all this again, and why I find Mike's insistence on circling back over the same dead carcasses so frustrating. 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

So much has been posted. I think I read it and forgot it in the information overload.

I am inclined to believe you on the early offer.  That said, here we have another case - exactly a year earlier than the CBM purchase of a part of this land - where the deal is announced in both October and December.  Also note the Dec article just above says construction might start as soon as "the legal forms are gone through with."  I am not sure what that means, but it implies that the deal, while in the papers the second time, still isn't final in legal terms.

Presuming they couldn't sell CBM land until they legally owned it themselves, perhaps that "few weeks after I decided to build there" comment from CBM could have been in early 1906, just before CBM took his Scottish trip, not 1905 as I would have presumed from the October article.  It could have been after.  But we really don't know from any first hand information.

It could still have been after that trip that he made the offer, though.  In design terms it makes sense to flesh out your template holes before looking for land, doesn't it?  And, if we trust his account, where he made an offer, but was directed to some land they had little use for, wouldn't that easily two sides of the coin in the same event, rather than months apart?  

The longer planning had been active for the subdivision - i.e., the Olmstead land plans - the more likely it is that they would reject an offer for a parcel in the middle of it, especially given that Alvord had already planned a nine hole golf course in a previous LI project.  It is certainly possible that Alvord was happy to give CBM 120 acres for golf, providing he mingled it with housing!  He may have rejected them as much as they rejected his offer.  For his purposes, it would be much better to be out and secluded.

BTW, while development plans were STARTING with a flourish, the buildout period for 2600 acres would be at least ten years.  The only thing that would have kept them from carving land out of their subdivison would have been a committment to the plan they had started with.

Again, all speculation.  We may never know the exact timing, what different discussions the parties had, etc.  We do know from CBM's brief description that he actually favored long island early, that the purchase of the land by Alvord was deemed as favorable to his project, and that whatever they said, he ended up using the parcel now known as NGLA.

[JESII]

Jeff,

Understood about the 10 year build out, but I think we can agree that CBM wouldn't have casually assumed his desired land would be around at whatever time he wanted it.

Regarding this comment of yours..."That said, here we have another case - exactly a year earlier than the CBM purchase of a part of this land - where the deal is announced in both October and December.  Also note the Dec article just above says construction might start as soon as "the legal forms are gone through with."  I am not sure what that means, but it implies that the deal, while in the papers the second time, still isn't final in legal terms."

I don't know if you're presuming that had anything to do with CBM, but I don't think it did. It was simply speaking of the real estate development..."Five of the directors have already selected site for their homes...". Don't you think?




David,

Pertaining to this article, and none of the maps, "the main highroad" could be either the North or the South, couldn't it?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

I wasn't implying that it had anything to do with CBM. The only similarities are that this deal was reported in the papers in both Oct and Dec 1905, and in Dec. it still wasn't a final purchase.

A year later, the sale of 205 (250 or whatever) from Alvord to CBM was reported in Oct 1906, and again in Dec 1906, but even then, the option was in place and that deal wasn't finalized.

All I think we can glean from that is that land deals got reported in the local papers before actual finalization.  And, in most likely, the October 1906 report of CBM acquiring land was simply another example of this and refers to the final land purchase he made on Sebonac Neck, and not some mysterious third parcel.  In fact, I think the Dec 1906 article says the land "is that which was reported earlier" which is what got me thinking originally that there may have been some glitch.  Now I think that these papers simply reported the announcement of the deal by the parties, and then the final deal as a matter of practice.

 

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

In trying to parse this all out via only newspaper article, we forget personalities are in play here, too.  Not too difficult to imagine that when Alvord told CBM "no" that he went away to sulk for a while, given what we know about his ego.  For all we know, consideration of those other properties may have been CBM temporarily deciding he wasn't going to put his golf course on Alvord's property, until he realized it still made the most sense for him.

And he wouldn't write "so I through a hissy fit and stormed out of the room" in Scotland's Gift, would he?

Again, I don't know, but I would have enjoyed being a fly on the wall in those negotiations!

[Andy Hughes]

that Alvord had already planned a nine hole golf course in a previous LI project.  

No, I believe Alvord actually HAD a full 18 hole course at Belle Terre.

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

High-road (or "high-line") was sometimes used to connote a northern east-west route as that is how it appears on maps.  (for example US 2, the northernmost US highway, is called the highline.)  So I was thinking that "main highroad" meant the main northern route, especially since (unlike the southern route) it went to SHGC.   I suppose that highroad could be taken as meaning "main road" (as was the usage in G.B.) but then "main highroad" would be redundant, wouldn't it?  

________________________________________

Jeff Brauer,

The article refers to features within the property which were "owned by the company" so I presumed the developer owned the land at this point.  I assumed the "legal forms" related to developing the property and not to buying it.   Note they had apparently already hired Olmstead and Vaux.  

You also wrote:

In trying to parse this all out via only newspaper article, we forget personalities are in play here, too.  Not too difficult to imagine that when Alvord told CBM "no" that he went away to sulk for a while, given what we know about his ego.  For all we know, consideration of those other properties may have been CBM temporarily deciding he wasn't going to put his golf course on Alvord's property, until he realized it still made the most sense for him.

And he wouldn't write "so I through a hissy fit and stormed out of the room" in Scotland's Gift, would he?

Again, I don't know, but I would have enjoyed being a fly on the wall in those negotiations!

Unfortunately much of what people think they know about CBM's ego has been born of petty gossip and misinformation posted by those who would rather piss on CBM's grave (metaphorically at the very least) than honestly deal with who he was.  Not that CBM had no ego.  Most great men did, but to always couch everything as about nothing but his ego seems to me to be pop psychology at its worse.  

If CBM's first offer was rejected in late 1905 or early 1906, then instead of going off and sulking he went off to study the great courses overseas for 6 months on a well publicized trip to prepare for his trip abroad, and according to him, when he returned he resumed his search.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Andy,

Well then, my bad. For some reason, and I just read it the other day, I thought I remembered nine holes, at least at first.  Information overload I guess.

To all,

My apologies to all for inadvertantly allowing David to take another rude and classless shot at forum members past and present.  Yeah, I should know better.

And here's the best news - we all need to set clocks ahead so we can be insulted by DM on this board an hour earlier tomorrow!

[DMoriarty]

My apologies to all for inadvertantly allowing David to take another rude and classless shot at forum members past and present.  Yeah, I should know better.

Jeff, I don't blame you for being embarrassed by your post, but let's not take it out on me.  My response was accurate and on point and you know it.  Besides, what better image to convey how these guys have treated CBM than the the one they themselves created?  It doesn't get any more rude and classless than that, does it?

[Mike Cirba]

Wow...step away from the computer for a few days and so much piles up to correct I'm not sure where to start.

First, the obvious.

Of course the main highway to Southampton ran through the 2700 acres that Alvord bought.   His land stretched from northern bay to southern bay.

It was the South Highway.   It's all very clear on the maps Bryan presented.

The objection David and Patrick originally raised that there couldn't have been a golf course built along the southern stretches of Cold Spring Bay going westward from Shinnecock Hills because a highway ran through it has been thoroughly debunked with clear historical documentation.

We should move on from that point.

[Mike Cirba]

A lot of maps of Shinnecock and the surrounding areas have been posted over the past few days, some useful and some misleading, but none quite so illustrative as the 1916 map by Bryan Izatt.

The wonderful thing about this map is that it's scaled, and includes the scale.

From it, we can determine that in 1916, the northernmost point of Shinnecock Golf Club was approximately 2100 feet, or 700 yards north of the Long Island Railroad Tracks.

Those skeptics playing along at home can measure for themselves.  




This would place the northern boundary of Shinnecock Hills Golf Club in 1916 virtually adjacent to today's 10th tee (original 1st tee) of the National Golf Links, and approximately 110 yards north of the southern border of that course.

On a modern aerial I've drawn a line 700 yard from the railroad tracks to approximate the northern most point of Shinecock GC in 1916, seen as follows.



As mentioned, that point is nearly adjacent to the original 1st tee at NGLA, today's 10th.

It should be noted that today's 9th green at NGLA (originally the 18th) is one of those that was moved further back (south) by CBM over the years, as evidenced in this 1912 drawing where it was nearly adjacent to the original 1st tee.



It does appear that CBM's original purchase included enough land behind there to move it back, so no biggie.


At this point, and without a similar 1906 scale map of the property lines a decade prior when CBM was buying his land, I would unequivocally state the following.

By 1916, it appear that the northern most point of Shinnecock Hills Golf Club extended north approximately 110 yards beyond the southern border of NGLA, whose land purchased for golf in 1906 ran in a north/south orientation for approximately 1.45 miles, or 2,552 yards.

On a related note, and since CBM is no longer around to argue with David, something I'm sure he'd be loathe to waste his time doing, I will do the next best thing and simply quote CBM again on his reason for selecting the location of his 1st and 18th holes, a decision that largely dictated what parts of the 450 acres at his disposal he could route his golf course over.

I would futher state that anyone who has actually seen the wonderful land forms along Peconic Bay of today's Sebonack GC and actually believes CBM would have preferred using the low-lying, flattish, often wet areas down along Bulls Head Bay is either insane or completely disengenous, and I would say that quite unequivocally, as well.    

We did not have enough money to consider building a club-house at once, so our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built by the Realty Company.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Cirba's most recent drawing may be worse than his first.  Look at his own "1915" map he recently posted.  The fifteenth hole started from a point north of the clubhouse and was listed at 464 yards, and the 16th tee was north of that.  Look at the location of the clubhouse on his latest drawing relative to the northern border.  What is there, about 75 yards for this 15th hole?  

Mike needs to learn that if he has to twist the facts to make his point, then his point is not worth making.
 
By 1898 the women golfer's (some of whom were extremely accomplished) were reportedly tired of their short "beginners" course and wanted a real course, and they began to usurp the Men's course.  (Reportedly they played the course as a twelve hole course, skipping the loop to the west.)   So in 1898/1899 the club reportedly purchased 20 acres of land to the north of the current course and extended the women's nine into one the longest nine hole courses in the nation.   Below is a early rough rendering of the layout from 1899.  Note that the from a point about even with the clubhouse the 2nd and 3rd run close to straight north and measure a combined  800 yards, and the 4th tee is beyond this.



Between 1900 and 1906 there was reportedly at least one other small land purchase of 5 to 8 acres well north of the clubhouse, toward Bullshead Bay.

So far as I can tell from the maps and various reports, changes which took place between 1900 and the major redo by CBM and Raynor in or around 1917 all took place on the land north of the clubhouse, which was originally laid out as the women's course.   For example, Shinnecock substantially lengthened their course and made other changes in or around 1913 (after NGLA and after Hutchinson had criticized their course) using the land purchased in 1898/1899 for the women's course.  

So while it may be true that the the men's course had undergone changes between 1915 as compared to fall of 1906, SHGC already owned the land.   And by 1906 SHGC's land reportedly extended well north of the the clubhouse; judging from the hole distances on the schematic, close to a half mile north, at least.   And, as mentioned above, Shinnecock had acquired additional land to the north prior to 1906.

So, despite Mike's adamant claims and his deceptive drawings, a portion of the SHGC land was directly east of the SHGC land.   And the land CBM was considering may have even extended further south than this.




This is a very interesting post by David, large portions of which I've re-copied above.

My lord, how many qualifiers such as "reportedly", and "so far as I can tell" can be placed in one post, which supposedly is about bringing facts to the table in some effort to set me straight?

Let's examine this, shall we?

Someone please ask David if the proposed expansion to the Woman's course was ever built.   It wasn't.

Nor was land purchased at that time for the purpose.

The 1916 Map shows clearly what land was owned by Shinnecock Hills over a decade later.   It also clearly shows the north/south orientation of the two properties.  

It should be now very obvious to everyone why those October 1906 articles would claim that the land that CBM was considering had as its eastern border the Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, since Sebonac Neck is so obviously west of that course.      




David's maps are produced so teeny-tiny that it's difficult to read anything, but the following 1896 map, reproduced from the William Flynn book, "The Nature Faker" that does show the land of the actual Women's course has some adjacent holes from the Men's "White" course that have yardages listed and give one a good idea of how far north the course ACTUALLY went from the clubhouse in the early days, which looks to be roughly 300 yards, although it's difficult to tell as the map isn't scaled.

[Mike Cirba]

And finally, my favorite.

It is now April, 1907.

According to David's interpretation of the October 1906 articles, CBM has already been at work on the land at Sebonac Neck for months at that time, having it surveyed down to the foot, and having those maps sent to foreign golf luminaries for review.

He has already apparently found his Alps, his redan, his cape, and his Eden.

He and his team have scrupulously studied the land...earnestly, in fact...and have placed their holes in a routing.

In fact, to hear Patrick tell it, by this time the routing had already laid itself out in 2 days.

Then, on December 14th, 1906 CBM secures 205 undetermined acres of the 450 available, and signs contracts to that effect.   He is quoted in multiple newspapers over that weekeng that he's going to spend the next several months with his committee figuring out which holes to reproduce as well as their yardages.

Now, it's April 1907, and the Olmstead Brothers are already aware that CBM has secured land that Patrick and David tell us had specific boundaries...in fact, contractually, they tell us that it HAD to have had those boundaries specified on the December contract, even though CBM tell us that he didn't make the actual purchase until spring of 1907.

So what do our friends the Olmstead Brothers do?

They propose the building of the major highway, the "North Hilghway", RIGHT OVER THE TOP OF CBM's FIRST TEE of his supposedly pre-routed golf course where he secured the land to fit it like a glove!

[Jeff_Brauer]

Time compression Mike. Time compression.

I know it took Olmstead just as long, if not longer, to produce that master plan.  He probably started in Jan 1906, not long after Alvord secured the land, maybe later, since he would also need some topo work done.

I presume the plans were prepared simultaneously, more or less, even if we don't see them in that ad until April 1907.

[Mike Cirba]

Jeff,

I get that, and generally agree, but let's remember that NGLA is identified on that Olmstead map, and that the signing of papers securing that deal happened in Dec 1906, only about three months prior to the publishing of that map.

If the whole land dimensions and boundaries (and presumably the routing)were determined months prior as some would have us believe, do we think Olmstead would have run the Long Island Motor Race over the first tee of NGLA. ? 

[Andy Hughes]

We did not have enough money to consider building a club-house at once, so our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built by the Realty Company.

When was the inn built?

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

It was announced in the press in Nov 1906 and opened in the spring of 07.

[DMoriarty]

Mike

Is there any point in these posts of yours which remotely relate to this NGLA discussion?  Or are you just spinning your wheels trying to kick up mud in the hopes that something will stick somewhere?

1.  Most of your complaints are too petty to take seriously.  You don't like the size of my maps?  Then find them yourself and post them in any size you wish.  You don't like that I identify when I am relying on information reported elsewhere?  Goes to show how little you understand about this process in general.  

2.  You claim that the contemplated women's course to the north was never built and that land was not purchased for this purpose.  You personally have no idea whether or not this was the case and are getting your information from elsewhere.  What is the basis for these latest claims?

3.  As for the bit about the Olmstead Map, I don't get your point and I am pretty sure that you don't either.  Parts of Shinnecock were directly east of the land CBM was considering, and by now even you must know this to have been the case.   So what is your point?

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

That's a really great catch.

How could CBM have possibly routed his golf course months earlier...sometime before Oct 1906 accordiding to the fantasy fables of the new Grimm Brothers...Pat and Dave...when CBM himself tells us he decided to locate his first hole near the recently built Shinnecock Inn which was planned in the late fall of 06 and opened sometime in spring of 1907?

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick and Dave,

Really sorry to bring this news to you, but Andy has insightfully realized that CBM hiimself tells us that the very fundamental, FIRST hole of his routing was based on the location of the newly opened Shinnecock Inn, which opened in the spring of 1907.

We did not have enough money to consider building a club-house at once, so our intention was to have the first hole close to the Shinnecock Inn, which had recently been built by the Realty Company.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

Was there more than one Shinnecock Inn?  The article below from the NY Times dated September 6, 1893, talks about a Shinnecock Inn near Southampton.   Maybe there was already an existing Inn on the spot, and it was razed and rebuilt by Peconic Bay Realty?  CBM presumably knew the site of the old Inn. Maybe he compressed the time schedule for the book.   If all this is in the back pages, I missed it.

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