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George_Bahto

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #75 on: January 21, 2011, 11:48:49 AM »
When they played that "informal" opening tournament (Macdonald and some of his best friends) both the 9th and the 18th greens were about one full green shorter than where they later ended up.

If you can remember where the bunkering is, short of the 18th hole, that was the beginning of the original 18th green - I can't remember the yardages of both those hole off the top of my head but they were about 30-40 yards shorter and for a while the original greens and the (later) greens on both those holes were in use as one huge green for a while.

If one looks closely at the model down in the maintenance barn you can see that those two greens are shown as described above. I think it shows the same in the course drawings that appeared in Golf Illustrated

Greens moved: I have buried info that the 8th was moved once, of course the 14th and the 17th. Portions of a couple greens were lopped off, like portions of the 5th and 12th.

The sixth green:  a large amount of money ws spent on that green in the 20's - probably rebuilding the bunker (may have been in prep of the Walker Cup matches) - this is why there is a picture of the green with the "sleepers" holding up the front edge.

I think at one point, and certainly at the time of the informal opening - he and his friends - the 2nd green was the area on the plateau just short of the present 2nd green - whether that area or both areas were the entire second green (even though the fall of down to the present green is so steep and such a change in elevation).

I have an original scorecard (the only one I have ever seen and is shown in The Evangelist of Golf) and the yardage for the 2nd hole shows 261 - that from the original tee that was on the rear of the 1st green to the middle of the present green - however ...............................

In that NGLA article Harpers, Jan 22, 1910 by van Tassel Sutphen, he states (in part):
“The second hole, is modelled upon the famous Sahara at Sandwich. Its official length is put down at 230 yards but is really intended for a full one-shot hole; according to the direction and strength of the wind, its playing distance may be anything between 210 and 250 yards” - that puts the green (at one time) IN THE MIDDLE OF THE HILL BEFORE THE PRESENT GREEN. ..... he later states:
.......”the green itself deserves a word of mention. It is very large, and is built in THREE TERRACED SECTIONS, the fall being along the line of play and not against it.” ....... INTERESTING!

What I get out of all that is that perhaps Charlie thought it was a good idea for that green as described directly above but later found it unworkable and decided on the present green configuration.

Macdonald designed the course with three sets of tees so that different handicap players could play from THEIR appropriate tees could play against one another and not have to give "shots" to the  opposing player. A nice idea in general but I'm not sure it works all the time.

One of the most interesting thing about his 3-sets of tees idea was, according to him, that the fairway to green strategies would remain pretty constant for each level of player. Now that's tricky!!
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 12:32:54 PM by George_Bahto »
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #76 on: January 21, 2011, 12:15:49 PM »
David Moriarty,

Can you post that old picture of the 2nd green again.  Thanks

George, I think you meant the tee was in # 1 green, not # 2 green.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #77 on: January 21, 2011, 12:27:26 PM »
George,

Thanks for that terrific information!

Patrick,

I can post the eight page article those pictures were included in sometime this weekend.  There are some other terrific photos, as well, and I've recently found one of the original Cape green that I'll try to post a link to, as well.

George_Bahto

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #78 on: January 21, 2011, 12:34:14 PM »
Pat - thanks - I corrected it
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #79 on: January 21, 2011, 12:57:39 PM »
Mike Cirba,

You are misrepresenting not only my understanding of what happened at Merion, but also misrepresenting my understanding of what happened at NGLA.  You've proven you are incapable of having an intelligent conversation about either, at least with me, so why don't you give it a rest?

____________________________

Patrick.
Here is the photo:



The photo wass taken from left of bunker looking across the hole with the cameraman near (or perhaps on) the water tower that is now the windmill, so the angle is a bit disconcerting.   The angle of play is from the lower left.  One can see the flag of the green on the left side of the photo.  Obviously the green is quite a bit shorter than now.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #80 on: January 21, 2011, 01:07:21 PM »
George,

I've seen that van Tassel Sutphen quote, but I think the hole was always intended to be a two shot hole, barely reachable by only the longest drivers.    

The green was definitely short at the 1910 tournament, but I wonder if this wasn't a temporary measure just for this tournament, and if work wasn't ongoing on the real green?

Here is what Whigham wrote about the hole in 1909:



Note that the hole was intended to be a two shot hole, where a big aggressive drive might just barely get to the green or edge of the green.    Note also that the green is 250 yards from the tee.

Here is a photo of the plasticine model.   The green is in its correct location, is it not?    One can make out about where the shorter green must have been placed (at least for that tournament) near the short bunker.



Here is the link to CBM's and HJW's 1914 article on the Sahara:
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/GolfIllustrated/1914/gi2i.pdf

For fun, here is a cool Franklin Booth rendering from the Whigham Article:


And the original Sahara Bunker at Sandwich, circa 1894:



And the hole at NGLA a few years ago:





« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 01:25:30 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

George_Bahto

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #81 on: January 21, 2011, 01:54:35 PM »
van Tassel Sutphen actuall said he thought it as a 3 1/2 hole


also:

In an article written by Charles A. Jagger, entitled “The National Golf Club” that appeared in Southampton Magazine - Autumn 1912, which gave an early hole-by-hole description of each hole, he spoke of the second hole:

    “The second hole is named, ‘Sahara”, and is a modified reproduction of the famous hole by that same name at Sandwich, although a more difficult one. The green is ridged and undulating and is built on two levels. This hole, like the first, is also of the dog-leg or elbow order, requiring a drive to the right and the second shot is straight uphill over a deep sand pit; the distance is 261 yards”.

If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

George_Bahto

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #82 on: January 21, 2011, 02:01:08 PM »
9th Hole   1910      
∙   according to Robt. White, prior to 1914 the 9th green was moved twice!
∙   At the time of the National’s un-official opening day tournament played for three days beginning July 2nd, 1910, the original 18th hole, the course’s present 9th, measured only 440 yards and “it was proposed to increase the it to 500 to 520 yards - a new green being already laid out.”





also about the 5th:

5th Green:   1928    
∙   In the fall of 1928 (Sept & Dec), 168 man days and 16 days of equipment expense, plus  compost, sand and seed for a total of $2,996.50 for substantial work on the 5th green - although the yardage was not changed, it appears the green was totally redone in the very least.
If a player insists on playing his maximum power on his tee-shot, it is not the architect's intention to allow him an overly wide target to hit to but rather should be allowed this privilege of maximum power except under conditions of exceptional skill.
   Wethered & Simpson

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #83 on: January 21, 2011, 02:37:06 PM »
David and George,

Thanks for the additional information that explains some of the early evolution.

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #84 on: January 21, 2011, 07:52:48 PM »



The photo wass taken from left of bunker looking across the hole with the cameraman near (or perhaps on) the water tower that is now the windmill, so the angle is a bit disconcerting.   

The angle of play is from the lower left. 

David, I think the angle of play is from the right.

If the picture is taken from the water tower, play has to be from the right.

I've always found that picture disconcerting as the topography doesn't match the site, especially if the photo was taken from the water tower/windmill.

One can see the flag of the green on the left side of the photo.  Obviously the green is quite a bit shorter than now.


TEPaul

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #85 on: January 21, 2011, 09:00:05 PM »
"I've always found that picture disconcerting as the topography doesn't match the site, especially if the photo was taken from the water tower/windmill."


Pat:

Actually it does and that's what really surprised me walking around up there early one morning after sunrise. The only reason we don't really notice that elevation or rise behind that flagpole is because there are so many trees up there now. I walked up there and it does match that rise in that of photo that has no trees up there.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 09:02:24 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #86 on: January 21, 2011, 09:47:55 PM »
TEPaul,

It only matches if the green in the photo is 60-80 yards short of the current green and located on the far right flank of the current fairway.

It does not match if the green was at the crest of the hill.

It has to be much lower than the crest in order for the juxtaposition of the features and surrounding terrain to match the current topography.

DMoriarty

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #87 on: January 21, 2011, 10:09:52 PM »
David, I think the angle of play is from the right.

If the picture is taken from the water tower, play has to be from the right.

My mistake.  Meant right. Wrote left.  

I agree that it is a strange angle but I am pretty sure that is the angle in the photo.   I think if you look at google maps that hill across the way is about the highest point on the property.   Not sure if the photo is from up in the water-tower or not, but it has to be from somewhere around there.   If you look at the model you can imagine where this early (temporary?) green was.

The green used for that tournament was well short of the current green. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #88 on: January 21, 2011, 11:16:55 PM »
Dave,

The only way that picture makes sense is if the green was located 60-80+ yards short of the current green, into the side of the hill/ridge facing the tee and over toward the right side of the current fairway.

It also makes sense when you consider the location of the 2nd tee, on the flank of the footpad of the 1st green.
There's NO way, in 1909-10 that a golfer could carry his drive over the current bunker compled to the left.

The drive had to be up what is now the right side, and I think that's where the green was located.

Jim Nugent

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #89 on: January 21, 2011, 11:20:31 PM »
TEPaul,

It only matches if the green in the photo is 60-80 yards short of the current green...

The hole today plays 330 yards.  Back then it played 215 to 260 yards.  So unless they moved the tee way up, the green must have been well short of where it is now.  

The AG article lists the 3rd hole (alps) at 376.  The 3rd today plays at 430.  So the third tee must have been 60 or more yards further up.  Making the walk from the 2nd green to the 3rd tee well over 100 yards.

I'm again struck by how many great courses underwent ongoing, substantial changes, starting shortly after they opened.  That's true of most of the Doak 10s in the U.S.    

 

TEPaul

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #90 on: January 22, 2011, 07:11:52 AM »
Jim:

That's right. Macdonald did say he moved some greens and I think that was one of them. When you first see that photo it is pretty surprising. I think I first saw it about 8-10 years ago. It's in one of the albums in a drawer in the big room (there are all kinds of interesting photos in those albums and a number of them that seem to be from abroad). I was looking at them in the middle of the night some years ago and with that one it was so surprising the next morning really early I went out to the ridge on that hole and noticed how much the land rises to the right and up into the trees.

It guess it was a long walk to the 3rd tee but sometimes those kinds of things seem unavoidable at first. I guess he figured golfers were going that way anyway. Some of those early guys like Crump were pretty fixated with creating really close green to next tee commutes but sometimes a long walked seemed unavoidable depending on what the characteristics of the land forms you wanted to use next (the Alps hill).

Crump ran into the same thing with the 11th and 12th at PV. He didn't like the long walk and actually planned to move the 11th green up on the hill next to the windmill and much closer to the 12th tee.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #91 on: January 23, 2011, 01:13:51 AM »
From the various stories and accounts described here and in other sources, it appears the routing of the course took a few months, and that was all accommodated by the fact that CBM bought much more land than he originally thought he needed for the actual course, essentially "encircling" the parcels of the property that contained the best features for golf, while giving himself and his design associates enough land and latitide to do whatever they felt was best for their overall goals.


Patrick_Mucci

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #92 on: January 23, 2011, 10:02:31 AM »

From the various stories and accounts described here and in other sources, it appears the routing of the course took a few months,


[size=12point]

Mike, that's your agenda driven conclusion, a conclusion that's nothing more than an attempt to dispute, deny and/or diminish the possibility that CBM routed Merion in short order.

What you fail to understand is that CBM had an abundant number of specific holes that he wanted to incorporate in his golf course, whereas, with Merion, there was no preconceived plan to incorporate specific holes, thus making the routing of Merion all the easier.

Somehow, in your quest to prove that courses can't be routed with single or limited visits, you ignore the vast body of work of Donald Ross, who according to some, had one day routings as his modus operandi.

Please, please stop with your agenda driven, forced interpretations.
[/b][/size]

and that was all accommodated by the fact that CBM bought much more land than he originally thought he needed for the actual course, essentially "encircling" the parcels of the property that contained the best features for golf, while giving himself and his design associates enough land and latitide to do whatever they felt was best for their overall goals.[size=12point]

Mike, one only has to look at the very confined and very limiting nature of the out and back routing at NGLA to dismiss your above conclusion.
[/b][/size]



TEPaul

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #93 on: January 23, 2011, 10:27:42 AM »
"Mike, that's your agenda driven conclusion, a conclusion that's nothing more than an attempt to dispute, deny and/or diminish the possibility that CBM routed Merion in short order."



Patrick:

You call Mike Cirba's conclusion nothing more than an agenda driven attempt to dispute, deny and/or diminish the possibility that CBM routed Merion in short order, while at the same time denying that Moriarty's agenda driven conclusion was nothing more than an attempt to dispute, deny and/or diminish the fact that Wilson and his committee routed Merion and not exactly in short order either!

If you disagree with particularly the latter part of the above then just cite for us one iota of evidence that CBM ever routed Merion East. There is no factual evidence that CBM did that or anything like it. All you can point to is a laundry list of unsupportable assumptions and premises in Moriarty's essay that actually have no basis in factual evidence. It is all nothing other than speculation and tortured logic and reasoning.

If you don't think so then just point to one iota or one example of actual physical or textual EVIDENCE from back then (contemporaneous) where any record indicates that Macdonald did something like route Merion East.

Frankly, the best piece of evidence about what Macdonald and Whigam did do for MCC in 1910 is that two and a half page letter Macdonald wrote to Lloyd after their June 1910 visit to Ardmore. When Moriarty wrote that essay he did not have that letter; he only had a committee and board reference to it. Some months later, Wayne Morrison on his own initiative actually found a transcription of that letter at MCC. What that letter actually said is perhaps the best evidence there is that Macdonald and Whigam did not route Merion East in 1910 or anything remotely like that and in that letter Macdonald actually even explained why he could not do something like that.

People like you, Patrick, just continue to overlook that kind of thing. Why do you do that? I think you do it because you are probably embarrassed about condoning a completely half researched and half baked essay like that one in the first place, and this is your on-going way of avoiding and denying that embarrassment. You're no historian, that's for sure. You seem to be nothing more than a pot-stirer! I bet, even at this point, you still have no idea WHAT that all-important letter from Macdonald to Lloyd in the end of June 1910 actually said. Unfortunately Moriarty had no idea what that actual letter said either (all he had was a committee and board reference to it) when he researched and produced that highly misleading essay of his entitled "The Missing Faces of Merion."



« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 10:42:38 AM by TEPaul »

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #94 on: January 23, 2011, 10:44:14 AM »
TEP & Mike
The reality is most golf courses built in the first decade of the 20th C. were laid out in short order, and some very good ones too. I don't think it does your credibility any good (Mike's that is because TEP has none) to deny the documented facts, or in the case of Mike, to negatively portray these early architects as itinerants. It does seem to be agenda driven, ie Merion driven.

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #95 on: January 23, 2011, 11:04:45 AM »
Patrick,

What is silly is the idea that the process of land aquisition at the two clubs was even remotely similar, much less identical in terms of process, intent, or "pre-routing", other than the fact that they both wanted to build great golf courses and they both took a few months to route their courses before construction and seeding.

TEPaul

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #96 on: January 23, 2011, 11:14:18 AM »
Tom MacWood:

I would tend not to use a word like itinerant to describe the lives and times of those early immigrant Scottish and English golf professionals who were over here in the 1890s. I would tend not to use that word not because it is inaccurate but simply because someone like you tries to put some negative connotation on it. Look up the definition of that word in any dictionary and even you should be able to see that the word is actually not one that has some negative connotation----at least not until about the sixth inclusion of its meaning.

But there is no factual or historic doubt that those early Scottish and English immigrant professionals such as the Dunns, Davis, Campbells, White etc most certainly were intinerant. To prove that one only has to chronicle their itineraries and the multitple jobs they had at multiple clubs over a fairly limited number of the years in that early time and generally including multi-tasking jobs that required them to do a whole lot more than just creating golf course architecture.

They were all early multi-taskers and that too is completely provable historically and factually. And not a single one of them stayed at any club very long in the 1890s or even the early 1900s.

I have said many times over the years on here that I do not believe the fact that they were so peripatetic (itinerant) in the things they did over here in that early time indicates that they were men that had no talent for architecture (I said that very thing on another thread yesterday and Moriarty turned it around and wrote I said the exact opposite! Will he acknowledge that? Of course not! ;) ).

Matter of fact, I have said for years now (and included in the theme of that article I wrote for the 2009 Walker Cup program) that I think it is unfair to assume and certainly to conclude that those men had no talent for golf architecture in those years simply because they were never afforded the time and the opportunity and the money to show what they may've been able to do if they were afforded those things as some of the best of the early "amateur/sportsmen" architects were.

The trouble with you, MacWood, is you are clearly trying to make something out of what they did that they just never accomplished for good and understandable historic and factual reasons. That you keep trying to do that I feel actually dishonors them and what they did do over here which frankly was a whole lot more than golf course architecture!

As even Mr Weeks said in his book and so many others have said who have chronicled those men in that time accurately, perhaps the most important thing they accomplished over here in that early time was to teach and certainly SHOW those early golfing Americans how to play good golf or certainly what the playing of good golf looked like. Other than that they also probably made golf clubs or even balls and helped those early clubs maintain their golf courses. Included in that certainly was the quick laying out of rudimentary courses but given their inablility to stay long they just were rudimentary in those years and for that that architecture failed to last or endure.

I have also said over the years and in that Walker Cup article that if those early "amateur/sportsmen" architects who ended up doing such good and lasting and respected work with architecture because they took so much time with it on their special projects, were forced to work at the pace and itineraries those early immigrant English and Scottish professionals did they would probably not have been able to even do as good and those journeymen professionals of that early time did, even though it was rapidly produced, inherently rudimentary and not significant in its architectural quality.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 11:24:22 AM by TEPaul »

Mike Cirba

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #97 on: January 23, 2011, 11:17:38 AM »
Tom,

"Itinerant" is not a disease.

It just means they moved around a lot for work, which they did.

I didn't mean to imply that not working on the second nine at Brookline diminished Campbell's rep.  It's just that even today I see it sometimes referred to as a Campbell course, when it really isn't.

Do you think perhaps the 1903 news article about his wife that said he was responsible for Brookline and Myopia was responsible for that misconception?

Tom MacWood

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Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #98 on: January 23, 2011, 11:29:46 AM »
Mike
The word itinerant has a negative connotation, and you and everyone knows it. Tom Dunn, has a negative image too, which is why you almost always used the word itinerant and TD in the same sentence. You were trying portray these gents as negatively as you could. Around that time you were also trying to smear CBM and Whigham.

I think you missed your calling, you should have gone into politics.  

TEPaul

Re: The Creation of NGLA in Chronological, Contemporaneous News Articles
« Reply #99 on: January 23, 2011, 11:37:57 AM »
Michael:

There is another potential aspect of the histories of Shinnecock and NGLA that just occured to me. At this point, I cannot say with any accuracy the significance of it but it has to do with THE LAND!

Let's just call it "Shinnecock Hills." Do you or anyone else on here even know what that meant back then or what it entailed and/or particularly who it was that was selling it or more importantly who actually owned it or who owned the multiple "development companies" that controlled it over the years beginning as far back as the late 1870s and early 1880s and progressing on up until perhaps even the teens.

I think there might be a ton of cross-over significance in all that and the one who seems to chronicle it the best of all or the best ever is none other that David Goddard whose latest work for Shinnecock GC is not called "The Story of Shinnecock GC" it is actually called "The Story of Shinnecock Hills" and it chronicles the entire history of the whole thing----all 3,500 acres of it or whatever it wasa back then which now includes golf courses such as Shinnecock, NGLA, Southampton and Sebonac!