[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

The had no money for the clubhouse "initially" so they decided to ue the Shinnecock Inn WHEN THEY WERE CONSIDERING THE PROPERTY IN 1906.   That was 2 miles from Sebonack Bay...That predetermined the starting and ending points for the routing.  They went down to Sebonack Bay in the routing as any sane person would have for that dramatic view, but THEN THEY HAD TO GET BACK! 

They had to make alternative clubhouse plans in 1908 when the Shinnecock Inn burned down, but by then the die was cast.

CBM mentions redan, Alps, Road, and Eden as direct copies.

ALL the rest were either composites or originals, based on THE LANDFORMS at his disposal.

You've missed the step between his original ideal course and what he ended up with, and the evolution in his thinking from trying to create exact replicas of holes overseas to simply adapting their principles.

You should really read the articles here, Patrick.   They chronicle that evolution of his thinking quite well.

And they accurately report the land he wanted to purchase first near Good Ground, as even David's recent article does, and the land he ended up securing from another real estate concern a few weeks after that first offer was rejected.

They also contain contemporaneous quotes from CBM himself in real time telling us exactly what he was going to do over the next several month.    That's priceless in my book.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

The had no money for the clubhouse "initially" so they decided to ue the Shinnecock Inn WHEN THEY WERE CONSIDERING THE PROPERTY IN 1906.   That was 2 miles from Sebonack Bay...That predetermined the starting and ending points for the routing.  They went down to Sebonack Bay in the routing as any sane person would have for that dramatic view, but THEN THEY HAD TO GET BACK! 

No, they didn't.
That's only a conclusion after the fact.

If they had 450 acres at their disposal, and they only needed 205, they were essentially free to roam anywhere they wanted in order to site the golf course, but, CBM had specific holes in mind, 18 of them, and he located them as best he could fit them into the natural lay of the land.
He found that land immediately adjacent to Shinnecock Hills Golf Course.

I'm of the mind that he ALWAYS intended for the clubhouse to be in it's current location.

He stated that he didn't want to be close to Shinnecock Hills GC.
He was thrown out of SHGC.
The last thing in the world he would do would be to site his clubhouse beneath the stares of the members of Shinnecock, sitting high up on the ridge, looking down on him, his clubhouse and his fellow members.
In addition, there was no reason to introduce Sebonic Inlet Road, other than for siting the clubhouse, at the expense of #14.

I believe he specifically left the bowed land between # 18 and # 1 for his clubhouse site.
It was the perfect location for his bathing houses on the beach, the potential yacht basin, and, it was far removed from Shinnecock's clubhouse.
[/b]

They had to make alternative clubhouse plans in 1908 when the Shinnecock Inn burned down, but by then the die was cast.


Not really.
The SI was always intended as a temporary clubhouse, never a permanent one.
Remember, they didn't own the land behind the 9th green.
There's not a doubt in my mind that when they routed the golf course that left some of the best land on the property vacant, for the sole purpose of siting their clubhouse.[/b]

CBM mentions redan, Alps, Road, and Eden as direct copies.

First, anyone who has played # 17 at Prestwick knows that the 3rd at NGLA is far, far, far removed from being a direct copy.
# 3 is not even close to being a direct copy of # 17 at Prestwick.

The other holes were copies as well, just not mirror images of the 18  ideal holes he described.

Remember, he stated that he'd do his best to locate  his set of 18 "ideal" holes as the land would best permit.
In some cases, like the Alps, Redan, Eden and Road he found those holes immediately.
BUT, in doing so, along with the 1st, 9th, 10th and 18th, he also found the Bottle, Sahara, Leven, Punchbow and Cape, and in so doing, he easily found the connector holes, # 5, # 6, # 11, # 12, and # 15.
As Max Behr clearly stated, the routing process was so easy that the course routed itself.[/b]

ALL the rest were either composites or originals, based on THE LANDFORMS at his disposal.

Once again, you got it wrong.
He describes, in detail, the ideal holes he wanted.  He lists all 18 holes and describes their attributes and the holes they're fashioned after in the UK.
He didn't let the landform dictate design.
He already had the design and only need to find the appropriate natural landform that would accomodate the fit.
You have it backwards, but, being from Philly, I understand that.[/b]

You've missed the step between his original ideal course and what he ended up with, and the evolution in his thinking from trying to create exact replicas of holes overseas to simply adapting their principles.

I didn't miss a thing.
He transitions, from his list of 18 ideal holes, directly, to his search and discovery at NGLA[/b]

You should really read the articles here, Patrick.   They chronicle that evolution of his thinking quite well.

They certainly inform the reader of the activity, but, I'm not prepared to accept them as "The Gospel"
They get so many facts wrong that you have to question the author's/writer's and you have to question the authenticity of quotes attributed to CBM.

I think one of the primary differences in our views is that yours is clearly agenda driven.
You hope to disprove CBM's ability to route a course in short order to bolster your view that he couldn't have done same at Merion, a highly developed and charted property in comparison to NGLA.
We know that CBM was a talented, studied man.
We know that Donald Ross routed many courses but with just one visit, sometimes mailing it in with NO visits, so the concept of routing in short order is well known, you just can't or don't want to accept it because it just might lead to additional credits flowing to CBM, to the detriment of those previously credited with designing Merion.

I don't want to have this thread devolve any further than you intended, regarding Merion, but, when Alps, Redans, Capes, Edens and the like are incorporated into Merion's design, you have to wonder about CBM's ability to site and route a course in short order, especially his ability to insert some or many of HIS ideal holes.  Hence your quest to discount or dismiss CBM's short order routing and hole siting at NGLA.

I have NO such agenda.

If verifiable information is discovered which alters the history of NGLA, I'll embrace it, with but one caveat.
Namely, that CBM, conceived, sited, routed and constructed NGLA as the materialization of his vision, not a committee's vision, but his vision.
He went abroad and studied, not a committee.
He selected and sketched the ideal holes, not a committee
He searched for and found the land, not a committee and he found the individual hole locations, routed the course, staked it and bought it, without the benefit of a committee.

In short, NGLA was his baby, from concept through construction and fine tuning for years to come.

For years I argued with George Bahto with respect to the intended clubhouse site, so, it's nothing new to this thread.[/b]

And they accurately report the land he wanted to purchase first near Good Ground, as even David's recent article does, and the land he ended up securing from another real estate concern a few weeks after that first offer was rejected.

They also contain contemporaneous quotes from CBM himself in real time telling us exactly what he was going to do over the next several month. 

Again, those are alleged quotes.[/b]  

That's priceless in my book.

Of course it is, you wrote your book and drew your conclusions before the facts were ascertained.
You have an agenda, a predetermined or predisposed set of conclusions to support your Merion defense.

But, tell me, how did those newspaper articles you want to accept as accurate get the properties so wrong when they were describing the views of the Atlantic.  Views that don't exist at NGLA, but do exist miles to the West.
And, the funny thing, the really comical thing, is that you were so desperate, so fixated on your predetermined conclusion that you tried to validate the erroneous report that the Atlantic was visible from everywhere on the property except the low lying stretches.  You even got a stooge to side with you claiming that possibly, from a single point on the property, you might be able to see the Atlantic, and then arguing that 95 % of the golf course at NGLA was on low lying stretches.

But, once the truth was known, did you admit that your zealotry, your blind allegiance to the denial that CBM could have routed Merion in short order, was responsible for you errouneously subscribing to the absurdity that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on NGLA except the low lying stretches.  That act, the act of denying the facts in a misguided attempt to "hold the fort at Merion" showed that you were incapable of being objective, impartial and incapable of accepting facts which didn't support your cause.   That's an act of intellectual dishonesty.

I have to go, but, I'll address the "Canal" site over the weekend.

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Too funny! 

You keep supplying the insults and I'll keep supplying the facts.   

You're learning here even if you'd never admit it, so that certain knowledge warms my heart. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I have NO agenda.
No predisposed position.

I generally accept what CBM wrote when he chronicled the creation of NGLA.

I take his written word over newspaper accounts written by uninvolved third parties.

Be honest, you do have an agenda.
You did change the title of this thread to conform to an evolving focus.
You want facts to be discovered that match a conclusion you've already drawn.

I just want facts to be discovered, irrespective of the conclusion they lead to.

And I think that's a huge distinction in our perspectives.

I don't want to read a newspaper article, one that contains glaring errors, and be told that the newspaper account is accurate, or worse yet, a press release "directly" from Macdonald.

I think you and Joe and others have put a great deal of effort into this thread.
I also think some of the conclusions you've drawn are illogical and without merit, despite how many times you claim their veracity.

So, we differ in terms of our perspective.
You've drawn a conclusion and are in search of facts that only support your conclusion.
I've drawn no conclusion, except a willingness to trust, in general, CBM's written words.
If facts are discovered, I'm willing to accept them, irrespective of where they lead.

But, to date, I haven't seen any facts presented by you or Joe that dispute CBM's written account.

I'll comment on the "canal" site this weekend.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba, I'd be glad to address your questions, but you keep piling on more nonsense, so it is bit difficult to get caught up.

David,
In the meantime, could you answer a question for me...do you agree with Patrick that those quotes from CBM posted the day after he secured the property were inaccurately reported and attributed?  If not, what do you think CBM meant when he said the next several months would be spent with his committee deciding what holes to reproduce and the distances of the holes?

Quit twisting things.  Patrick said that details in those articles were wrong, and he is correct about that.  But many of the details did not come from quotes.   As for the CBM quotes, they are likely legit. but I'd like to know the original source (s) and the timing. Looking at the quotes in their entirety, I think he is talking about working up a detailed plan, not a rough routing.  

In short, they hadn't decided on the exact yardages, or the various features of the holes from abroad they would incorporate.  For just one example, take the Alps.  Even though they had found it,  they still had to decide upon the green and the bunkering scheme (which is not the same as the original) and they also had to decide upon the exact distances.   While these may thing like throw-away things to you, to CBM they were very important. CBM and HJW seem to have labored over such details throughout the construction faze and even after the course opened, even building (or planning to build) a back tee that ultimately wasn't even considered in the championship yardage.  And this was on one of the holes that was supposedly a copy!   On other holes which more composite there would have been even more to do even after the rough routing was in place.  
 

Similarly, how long do you really think it took him to fully route the course and when do you believe that happened?  Thanks.

It depends upon what you mean by fully routing the course.  I think he would have been a fool to even roughly stake out the course until they have a very good idea of the entire routing.   Judging from these articles and from Scotland's Gift, this was done before they optioned the property.  Without having done a routing he would not have been able to provide the detailed description of the property that he did.    And I do think he would have been well on his way with the routing after riding the property for two or three days, but that is neither here nor there.  The important thing is he found the course first and then shaped the land to fit the course.  

[DMoriarty]

David,

By the way, part of your misunderstanding is that the "Good Ground" property was owned by Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Co. And the land they actually purchased was from 450 acres controlled by the Dean Alvord Syndicate.

My misunderstanding?   You've got a lot of nerve to write that given your track record.   As usual you don't know what you are talking about.   Alvord purchased the land in October of 1905 and the SHPBRC was formed soon thereafter to develop the land Alvord had purchased.  It was the same plot of land. 

Good Ground is west of the Canal.  The SHPBRC land (the land Alvord had purchased) began east of the canal and went all the way to Southampton.  It was essentially everything including Sebonack neck, except for Shinnecock's course and the private estates already established.     

Yet you pretend you know what you are talking about and claim that SHPBRC controlled some other piece of land at Good Ground?   On what basis did you write that? Other than wishful thinking on your part? 

And yes, he evidently was hopping around the over 2000 acres of the former for some time before they rejected his offer sometime in November 1906, and he moved very quickly on the Alford property once he saw it had features he could use, including the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse 2 miles from Peconic Bay as he noted.

More utter nonsense on your part.   He was hopping around 2000 acres around Good Ground?  You just made that up.   They rejected his offer sometime in November of 2006?  Again, you made it up.   He moved quickly?  You have no idea the timing, you are just pretending to know.    Discussing this with you is a waste of time.

Also, CBM  himself said he made an offer for 120 acres, not 250.   Do you think he was mistaken?

No.  You are mistaken.   They aren't talking about the first plot of land of 120 acres.  They seem to be talking about the land CBM ultimately purchased.   

[DMoriarty]

David,

Those articles you posted are really interesting, and it should be possible to determine from the boundaries the exact land that CBM really wanted first for his Ideal Golf Course.

Except that those articles aren't describing the 120 acre plot. They are describing the land adjacent to Shinnecock Hills golf course. In case you didn't know that is the land that CBM purchased, so it shouldn't be much trouble for you to locate it.

But, yes, that's land not owned by the Alvord Syndicate and is instead closer to "Good Ground" and stretches out to the Shinnecock Canal to the west...he evidently found the Sebonac Neck land he used after his original offer for the GG land was rejected as discussed in his book. 

Why do you write stuff like this when you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about?  Do you think that if you say it with authority that it somehow makes it true?  Did you mentor teach you that trick? 

Interesting to note that he was so far down the road to purchase of the first that he'd already had surveyor maps sent to some of his confidants.   I wonder if he hired the surveyor?   Most likey the land had been previously surveyed.

As he told us, the land he eventually settled on owned by Alvord was 450 unsurveyed acres, thus begat Seth Raynor.

He said the land was not surveyed when they first rode over it.   He doesn't say whether it had been surveyed or mapped   when they finally purchased it.  You pretend to know when they first rode the land, but you don't.  Just like you don't know when he first began considering it.   It obviously wasn't November as you have claimed. 

Not much time for this stuff right now, but I will try to post a few more articles when I get the chance. 

[Mike Cirba]

Except that those articles aren't describing the 120 acre plot. They are describing the land adjacent to Shinnecock Hills golf course. In case you didn't know that is the land that CBM purchased, so it shouldn't be much trouble for you to locate it.

More utter nonsense on your part.   He was hopping around 2000 acres around Good Ground?  You just made that up.   They rejected his offer sometime in November of 2006?  Again, you made it up.   He moved quickly?  You have no idea the timing, you are just pretending to know.    Discussing this with you is a waste of time.


Following see the general area of land that CBM had been trying to secure through early November 1906, thought he had secured 250 acres of (based on descriptions in David's articles), and which was ulitimately rejected, after which he moved his sights to the 450 unsurveyed acres of the Sebonac Neck land as he mentions in his book.   As noted, CBM tells us he secured what seems to have been his second choice later in November 1906, although contemporaneous news accounts  place that date as Friday, December 14th, when the actual contracts were signed.

As clearly seen, it is bordered on the east by Shinnecock Hills Golf Club, on the south by the Long Island RR, to the west by the inlet, and to the north by Sebonac Bay.  

David's article states the land is 250 acres...I'm thinking it's possibly a transposition of the targeted "205 acres" he drew out in his original plans, but that's speculative.   In his book, he mentions making an offer for only 120 acres, but that has always seemed very odd to me based on what we know his overall plans were for the club and founders's building lots.

One can only approximate the exact land CBM evidentely thought he had secured as the total area encircled within red is about 550 acres, very roughly.  It is likely that the acres Macdonald sought started at the Shinnecock Inn, hugged the shoreline north as much as possible, didn't go nearly so far south as the LIRR, and just proceeded out in the direction of the canal and Good Ground to the west.   We know that the use of the Shinnecock Inn for a clubhouse was deemed very important to Macdonald at this juncture.   Was there a similar structure closer to Good Ground that Macdonald was considering?   We know he also didn't want to get too close to the Shinnecock GC, so that's still undetermined.  

We've seen previously where CBM got a few dates and details wrong in his recollections put into book form 20 years after the fact.   Perhaps like Richard Francis' account 40+ years on he is simply not so concerned about his recall of all the specific details as accurately summarizing the major events?

Use the scroll bar to slide the picture to the right...thanks.

[Mike Cirba]

As regards water views, the land in question, the holdings of the Realty Company, etc., the following article from April 6th, 1907 in the Brooklyn Daily Eagle is very interesting.   Sorry about the need for scrolling, but it makes it easier to read the small print.

[Mike Cirba]

I honestly don't know at this point if there was any formal relationship between the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Co., and the Dean Alvord Syndiciate, but we know CBM secured his land from the latter.   It makes me wonder why the news articles wouldn't have mentioned the much larger realty company...they were certainly prominent, but I'm not sure it matters either way.

Whoever Dean Alvord was of the "Dean Alvord Syndicate", he wasn't listed among the officers of the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Company.

As seen in this April 1907 blowup, one can see what looks at least to be the shaded surveyed holdings of the former company on the smaller "blowup" map insert.    At the very least, those seem to be their holdings to date that had been plotted out for real estate sales purposes.

Neither the land of the NGLA course, nor the land adjoining it that made up the other 245 acres, today's Sebonack GC, look to have been shaded, and I doubt that SHAPBRC wouldn't have indicated the land ajoining NGLA on their sales map if they 1) owned it, and 2) had already surveyed it.






Here's the whole area in a modern aerial today, showing NGLA to the far northeast, Sebonack GC immediately to the southwest, and Shinnecock Hills GC to the south/southeast.   The Shinnecock Inn would have been behind today's 9th green of NGLA, or almost due west halfway down Shinnecock Hills GC.

[Andy Hughes]

At this point, could someone summarize exactly what the disagreements are? And what the areas of agreement are?

Thanks
the Peanut Gallery

[Mike Cirba]

Andy,

I wouldn't want to characterize Patrick's or David's overall positions, but from what I can tell, Patrick seems to want to hold onto the romantic idea that CBM routed the entire NGLA golf course in 2 or 3 days on horseback over 450 acres of inhospitable land that was impassible on foot.   Patrick is presumably trying to to hold onto the odd belief that CBM actually operated like this so he can cling to the otherwise unsupported notion that Macdonald routed Merion in a single day's visit in June 1910, although the existing physical evidence from CBM's visit directly contradicts this notion.  

(Frankly, between you and me, I don't really even believe Patrick actually believes such craziness...I think he just enjoys letting Tom Paul THINK he does.  )

I think instead the contemporaneous record at NGLA shows that CBM simply saw enough good landforms for some template holes he envisioned as well as generally advantageous sandy soil durng that ride to agree to secure 205 undetermined acres (although the location of the desired Shinnecock Inn as the clubhouse did determine fixed starting/end points for the routing) in Nov/Dec 1906 out of the 450 acres available, and then as spent the next several months working with his committee to determine which exact holes to reproduce as well as their yardages.  

Once all that was completed, and the final boundaries of the desired land was determined, CBM tells us he completed the purchase in the spring of 1907.

I've been trying to pin David down on what he believes happened over what period of time, but perhaps he can use your question to tell us what he thinks the historical record indicates in terms of a timeline of events.

As for me, I'm just going where the story leads...it's a remarkable one, that's for sure.

[Mike Cirba]

The following article from the Brooklyn Daily Eagle in August 10th, 1907 is not a great one, but is interesting as a peek into the construction process that seems to have begun on the course, where it seems stretches of the land were being reshaped by "engineers" and "landscape architects" to conform to specs of features from abroad the CBM wanted to directly copy.

Macdonald alludes to this in his book in his section about Seth Raynor.

[Mike Cirba]

From the October, 1906 news article David posted, this is the location of the land CBM originally tried to purchase and evidently thought he secured at that time;




Here's a very possible estimate based on that description.  The yellow X is/was the location of the Shinnecock Train Station.   Presuming the course started at the Shinnecock Inn over to the east near Shinnecock Golf Club, it would possibly move west, probably along the water.

[DMoriarty]

Andy,

 As you probably figured by Mike's lame attempt at summarizing the positions, for Mike this is all about Merion sat its core. My position on NGLA (which is only tangentially related to my position on Merion) has been pretty much the same as it has been the last half dozen or so times Mike has foisted this same conversation on us, but helps to understand where we started:  
-- A few years ago, apparently in an attempt to contradict something in my IMO, Mike started insisting that at NGLA, CBM first bought NGLA's specific property, and then, after having locked himself in to this particular property, CBM had to then try to figure out how he could fit a golf course (and, according to Mike, 60-90 acres of lots!) onto that property. The reason this claim was so important to Mike is that he wanted to say that the same thing happened at Merion:  Mike thinks Merion had no clue as to how they would route a golf course when they first agreed to purchase their oddly shaped property for their golf course. 

--  In  contrast, my position on this is rather simple.   I agree with what CBM wrote in his book and what commentators such as Max Behr wrote about NGLA: CBM studied the land and found the rough outlines of the golf course he wanted first, BEFORE HE PURCHASED THE PROPERTY.   (This is essentially what I think happened at Merion; they first roughly figured out the golf course before they agreed to purchase the land.  But my Merion argument is independent of what happened at NGLA and each stands on its own merits.)

So Mike and I started off arguing essentially opposites, and that is what is at the root of all this disagreement. 

But the disagreement has evolved and continues to evolve.   My position is the same, but as each of Mike's successive misinterpretations of NGLA's history get shot down, he shifts a little, yet oftentimes circles back to beat dead horses.  I honestly don't understand his position at this point, and I don't think he does either. 

For example, when Mike tried to put the events discussed in CBM's book, he took them out of the order they came in the book and listed them essentially like this:
1.  "Jim Whigham and myself spent two or three days riding over [the 450 acres of land], studying the contours of the ground. 
2. "The company agreed to sell us 205 acres and we were permitted to locate it as best to serve our purpose." And "we obtained an Option on the Land in November [really December] 1906."
3.  [After we optioned the property] "Again we studied the contours earnestly; selecting those that would fit in naturally with the various classical holes I had in mind, after which we staked out the land we wanted."
4.  "[We] took title to the property in the spring of 1907."

This chronology goes back to Mike's original quest to portray CBM as having boxed himself into a parcel of land before he got around to planning the course.  What Mike apparently fails to realize is that, if it had happened the way he lists it, then Mike has completely undermined this point and about every other point he has tried to make. 

According to Mike's chronology, all that had been done at the site as of December 1906 is that CBM and HJW had ridden the land for two or three days.*  They hadn't yet returned to the property to "again . . . stud[y] the contours earnestly."  They hadn't selected contours "that would fit in naturally with the various" holes he had mind.   And they hadn't even "staked out the land they wanted."  So in Mike's version, while they hadn't yet routed the course at the time they acquired the option, they hadn't chosen the land for the course, either.

Under Mike's latest version we have CBM first finding the course, planning it in detail, and then setting the boundaries for the course.  He has argued himself all the way around into agreeing with what has been my contention all along! Only he goes further.  I think CBM only had a rough routing when he set the preliminary boundaries and optioned the property, while Mike's version indicates they planned the entire course before choosing the land they wanted!

Perhaps now you understand why his position confuses me and why I have suggested that he doesn't fully understand it himself. 

Don't get me wrong.  Despite the fact that Mike is apparently now trying to make my point for me, I still disagree with Mike's version because the evidence doesn't support it.  Rather, the evidence suggests that CBM had a very good idea of the routing before he ever even optioned the property. And even then CBM left himself wiggle room to alter the borders a bit as he saw fit.  But even if Mike were correct, my basic contention about how NGLA was created remains the same.  They first found the course, and then fit the boundaries to the requirements of the course.   Not visa versa. 

So that is basically the disagreement, if you want to call it that.   Mike also pretends that this is about whether NGLA and Merion were "half-day" design jobs by CBM.  No one ever claimed either of them were, and I have explained this to mike repeatedly and told him to quit misrepresenting me, and it otherwise is not worth going into again. 

All the rest is Mike being Mike.  Futilely trying to fit round pegs into a square holes.  For example he is now pretending that the evidence indicates that CBM never even considered this property until November 1906 in an apparent attempt to make it look like nothing was done before they optioned the land.  It doesn't matter one way or another to my overall point, but my objection to this is that is just not factually accurate (or at least not factually supported.)  Mike is just making shit up because he (wrongly) thinks it might serve him with his Merion Obsession.   And that is what most of this about.  Mike trying to twist facts to make points that he wrongly thinks will help him in his never ending quest regarding Merion, and our attempts to get him to stop distorting the histories of these great clubs to serve his rhetorical ends.

___________________________

*Mike can't seem to make up his mind as to whether or not CBM and MJW found any golf holes when they first rode over the property.   Sometimes he caricatures their endeavor as a waste of time through bramble covered swamps, but other times he seems to think that after their ride they had already found and could describe three places to copy certain classical holes from abroad, aplace for a notable hole like no other (the Cape) the starting and finishing points for the course, and the dimensions of the land they would ultimately use.  (How they could have done that and not had a routing is beyond me!)  But this latter description is in direct contradiction with his professed chronology above, particularly when it comes to them finding the land they wanted.  And perhaps because of this, he has recently thrown in with Jim Nugent, who thinks none of this was done initially, and that it was done when the 'again studied the contours' and Mike doesn't think that happened until AFTER they optioned the land.

This is just more indication that Mike has taken so many different positions in service of his Merion obsession that he has confused himself.

[DMoriarty]

I honestly don't know at this point if there was any formal relationship between the Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Co., and the Dean Alvord Syndiciate, but we know CBM secured his land from the latter.   It makes me wonder why the news articles wouldn't have mentioned the much larger realty company...they were certainly prominent, but I'm not sure it matters either way.

You honestly don't know?
- But then why were you lecturing me about my supposed "misunderstanding" of the material?  
- Why were you lecturing all of us about about how SHPBRC really owned a separate 2000 acre plot of land located in Good Ground, which is not even on the map, (literally not on their own map of their property!)  
- Why are you continuing to try to cast doubt on the fact that SHPBRC was developing Alvord land?

YOU ARE JUST MAKING THINGS UP TO SOUND LIKE YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WERE TALKING ABOUT, AND FOR RHETORICAL GAIN.   This is the kind of thing that casts doubt on your honesty, sincerity, and ability.

As seen in this April 1907 blowup, one can see what looks at least to be the shaded surveyed holdings of the former company on the smaller "blowup" map insert.    At the very least, those seem to be their holdings to date that had been plotted out for real estate sales purposes.

Are you kidding me?   Did you bother to even look closely at the map you posted, or to read the article?

Surely you noticed "SEBONACK NECK" underlined and all caps, and the words "Shinnecock Hills and Peconic Bay Realty Company" written underneath? And did you not notice that "National Golf Course" is marked not once but twice on the map?

If so, why claim that Sebonack Neck wasn't included in SHPBRC's property when it explicitly states it is?   Obviously Sebonack Neck hadn't been developed with roads and lots which is why it isn't dark on the insert map of lots available at the opening.   But the description and the map leave no doubt that it was all controlled by SHPBRC.

And why claim that they did not point out that NGLA was a neighbor when they did so not only on the map but also in the article?  The article and the map YOU POSTED leave no doubt!

It is really sad that you have to resort to this crap.  It makes civil discussion impossible.  You are so clearly agenda driven that you will just write anything you think supports your claim, even when your own information contradicts it.  Pathetic.

Neither the land of the NGLA course, nor the land adjoining it that made up the other 245 acres, today's Sebonack GC, look to have been shaded, and I doubt that SHAPBRC wouldn't have indicated the land ajoining NGLA on their sales map if they 1) owned it, and 2) had already surveyed it.

More garbage on your part.  SHPBRC DID INDICATE THEY OWNED IT!  LOOK AT THE MAP!  And read the article.  They make a big deal about the proximity of NGLA!  And check the date and see of you can figure out why NGLA might not have been definitely drawn in.  It is an easy one.

Anyway, instead of continuing to argue about what you clearly admit you do not know.  Why not just take the time and look it up.  You could surely find the facts in the time it takes you to come up with this crap.  That is what I did before I stated who controlled the property.  

While I appreciate you saving me the trouble posting that April 6 article, you should have kept researching (or had Joe keep researching) and you would know that while Alvord purchased the property in October of 1905, the land was to be developed by SHPBRC.  Reportedly SHPBRC was formed around the end of 1905 to develop the 2700+ acres of land purchased by Alvord for the newly formed company.  

As I said yesterday, I was planning on posting some articles about this, but given you are still playing games here and pretending these were distinct sites, maybe I should let you (I should say Joe) discover you are wrong all by yourself.  Which would you prefer?
_____________________________________________

Your attempts to pretend they were talking about the 120 acre site are laughable.  
- First you miraculously convert the 120 acre site to a 205 acre site.  
-  YESTERDAY you were sure this site was by Good Ground, ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE CANAL, yet today you have it miraculously jumping the canal.
- Then, once it jumped the canal, you sketch out some 700 acres nowhere near Shinnecock's course, claiming that the site must have been somewhere in there.  
- Then you slip and slide the site well out of this area and over near Shinnecock, as if it never would have been mentioned that both sites bordered Shinnecock!   And you just pretend it ends at an inlet which isn't all that near an inlet at all.  f

It would be much less trouble to honestly assess the description.

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Nice try, but the land I just cited is exactly as described in youe article and exactly as described by CBM.

Do you simply enjoy typing or do you simply try to type enough to move your previous erroneous posts to prior pages?  ;

It seems the more mistaken you are the more you type in your next post.

Are you now saying your article from October was wrong in locating the land CBM was still trying to secure in early Nov 1906?

It describes exactly the parimeters on each side, yet yesterday you said this was the land he actually purchased.

Why can't you just admit when you are wrong and maybe learn something?

As far as agreeing with you, I'm not sure if I do or not because we are well into this thread and getting you to actually tell us what you think happened is like trying to nail jello onto a wall.

That's ok...just keep helping by posting more contemporaneous material and I'm sure everyone following along will see the story is very self-expplanatory and not in need of all much interpretation.. 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

Actually, in thinking about it, let's cut all this crap pretending this is complicated in the least.

If you disagree with me, why don't you show us exactly where the land is that CBM tried to secure based on the October 1906 articls YOU posted yesterday.

C'mon...the article tells us EXACTLY where that land was.

Why don't you show us where you disagree with me? 

Line up YOUR article with the map and have at it. 

I double dare you.

[john_stiles]

Oh boy,  I read  'double dog'  dare and then stepped out, and threw down another gin and tonic.

When I came back,  I noticed it was only a double dare.

That was close.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

I think it's accurate to state that you have changed your position, morphing it as information unfolds, to mold the newly discovered information to conform to your agenda.

As David stated, you first declared the land to be West of the canal.

Then, you insisted that you could see the Atlantic Ocean from NGLA's current property in an attempt to legitimize the seemingly erroneous article that you yourself posted.

When it became apparent that the authors/writers had confused the sites, you again chenged your tune, abandoning your previous position in favor of the "LATEST" position.

You deliberately jumbled the time line to conveniently suit your agenda driven conclusion.

I think David's position has been far more consistent, linear if you will.

The problem with Joe feeding you all of these articles is that you haven't taken the time to comprehend their content because you're in such a rush to post what you think will support your agenda.

It would be so much more productive if you could be objective.

Unfortunately, I don't think you're capable of objectivity due to the strength of your agenda and blind allegiance to your crusade to refute, discount and/or dismiss CBM''s involvement at Merion.

The routing of NGLA is pretty clear to me.
Macdonald's written word, the siting of the "ideal or template" holes, combined with the twin starting points, and the "connectors on the land immediately adjoining Shinnecock, lead, like Max Behr stated, to the course simply routing itself.  When you take the individual holes that Macdonald stated he found, combine them with the fact that he stated the course adjoined Shinnecock's golf course, and the fact that the SI would be the temporary clubhouse, the routing becomes self evident to all but those clinging to a predetermined agenda bent on dismissing CBM's ability to route Merion in short order.

You've put a lot of work into this, as has Joe, and it's unfortunate that you couldn't have been objective.

[DMoriarty]

Mike Cirba,

More nonsense.  But you just go right ahead and keep making stuff up to suit your needs.

1.  You keep claiming, as if it were fact, that CBM's offer for 120 acres was rejected in November of 1906.   ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU MAKE THE CLAIM THAT THIS HAPPENED IN NOVEMBER?   More wishful thinking/make believe on your part?

2. CBM tells us when he first became interested the land in this area, it was within a couple of weeks of when Alvord/SHPBRC first purchased the property.  That was Fall of 1905.  ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU IGNORE CBM ON THE TIMING?  

3. CBM tells us that the 120 acres was near the canal.  But you place the course well away from the canal; about a mile away.  ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU IGNORE CBM ON THE LOCATION OF THIS COURSE?  

4.  CBM tells us that he offered to purchase 120 acres of land.  Yet you pretend CBM attempted to buy over 200 acres?    ON WHAT BASIS DO YOU IGNORE CBM AS TO THE SIZE OF THE PLOT HE ATTEMPTED TO BUY?  

And then you come up with some bizarrely stretched piece of property that makes no sense whatsoever.  How was he supposed to fit a golf course in that thing you have drawn?    NOT TO MENTION, YOU HAVE MADE IT WAY TOO BIG.   IT WAS ONLY 120 ACRES.  YOURS IS A LOT BIGGER THAN THAT.  

This  is a joke.  You just cant selectively ignore some of the facts and change some others.    To come up with what you had to come up with you had to ignore  CBM as to [/b]the LOCATION, ACREAGE, AND TIMING of that purchase.

Have you know intellectual dignity whatsoever?
________________________________________

As for my alternative, I've already explained it, twice.   Let me take you through it step by step.  
1.   The Journal article is not referring to the first offer for 120 acres near the canal.
 - The first offer was for 120 acres, not  250 acres.  
 - The first offer was for land near the canal.  The description in the article said nothing about the canal and this land couldn't have been near the canal.
 - CBM wrote he was first trying to avoid getting too close to Shinnecock.   The land described in the Boston article was adjacent to Shinnecock.  
 - CBM's offer for the 120 acres was rejected, yet the article indicates that there was a deal in place for the land.
 - Plus, as I explained above the timing doesn't fit with CBM's description.

2.  While the description in the article is not perfect, it roughly fits the 450 acre parcel from which CBM chose NGLA.
 - The article in question essentially describes the Eastern Portion of the SHPBRC land - bordering Peconic Bay, Shinnecock, the inlet (most likely Cold Springs Harbor,) and skirting the RR.    
-  The 450 acres bordered Peconic Bay, Cold Springs Harbor, Bullshead Bay, and Shinnecock.  (And Bulls Head Bay is about as East as Shinnecock's course.)

In sum, the description in the Boston Journal article fits much better with land on Sebonack Neck than the 120 acres by the canal.  It also fits CBM's narrative.   CBM tells us they rode the land, and then the company agreed to sell them the land.  This very well could have been in October or earlier.  CBM said they then studied the land again and chose what they wanted, and then optioned the land in November (really December.)   It is very plausible that the Boston article was written after the development company tentatively agreed to sell CBM the land.  

You don't really need me to draw you a map of the land bordered by Peconic Bay, Shinnecock Hills Golf Course, and Cold Spring Harbor, do you?

[DMoriarty]

Another article, similar to the Boston Journal article, but from the day before (October 15, 1906, NY Evening Telegram.) Like the others, this description notes the property was adjoining Shinnecock Hills.


This article notes that H.J. Whigham had accompanied CGM to the site several times.

[Jim Nugent]

David, you said the Evening Telegram article is dated October 15.  Did you mean December 15?  Also, the article says CBM bought two hundred fifty acres.  I'm guessing whoever wrote it got 205 mixed up with 250. 

Macdonald said he optioned the Sebonac property in November 2006.  It seems pretty likely it was December.  He said the initial tournament was in 1909.  It was in 1910.  Just reading a few pages of SG, it's clear he got some facts wrong.  Not all that surprising from a man in his 70s, recalling events that took place 20 years earlier. 

That does raise the question, what else in Scotland's Gift is not accurate? 

[Mike Cirba]

David,

You're proving my point.

Please look up where the Shinnecock Railway station was located at that time, and you'll see exactly what I mean.

At this late date, CBM had thought he was going to get land right in the middle of the Shinnecock Hills real estate development, and was still trying to get primo water frontage.

This land, as seen in the other maps, was already surveyed and plotted for homes, which is why the Alvord company probably didn't want to part with it, or sell it for $200 an acre when they knew it was going to be worth much more.

That was still the deal as of November, 1906...CBM thought he had it, evidently, based on the state of negotiations.

It was NOT the same land as what he purchased...not even close.   Please tell me where Shinnecock lies to the East of NGLA??!!

That land was surveyed and ready to go.

Your article is an interesting one in that he already had sent survey maps to Hutchinson, et.al. of this property.   THAT is how he worked and I want to get into the implications of that later as relates to the land he actually DID secure later in December, 1906.



However, CBM tell us that AFTER the owners refused his offers for land around the canal;

"However, there happened to be some 450 acres of land on Sebonac Neck, having a mile frontage on Peconic Bay and lying between Cold Spring Harbor and Bulls Head Bay.  This property was little known and had never been surveyed.  Every one thought it was more or less worthless.   It abounded in bogs and swamps and was covered with an entanglement of bayberry, huckleberry, blackberry, and other bushes and was infested by insects.   The only way we could get over the ground was on poniies."

So,  after trying to get primo land right in the heart of the Shinnecock Hills that had already been surveyed and was clear, and having been rejected some time after November 1st, 1906, CBM sought alternatives, and found the Sebonac Neck property.   It seems from the looks of things, he and Whigham had been scouring that whole area between the canal and Shinnecock and had gone so far as to send contour maps to all of their friends seeking their input.



I'm thinking he was concerned about getting squeezed out of this very appealing market in terms of land forms, soil, and water frontage, and took what he could get, no disrespect meant, and he certainly made the most of his opportunity.

But, we also know he acted extremely fast on this opportunity, telling us he secured that land later in November (papers signed December 14th, 1906), somewhat less than six weeks after evidently coming upon it.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

Shinnecock Hills GC lies directly east of NGLA.

When you play the 10th hole at NGLA, a harsh slice will put you in the 3rd fairway at SHGC.
The 2nd hole at SHGC is directly east of the 9th green at NGLA.
SHGC is also directly east of the first half of the 11th hole at NGLA and SE of the rest of the hole and # 12.

The land described in David's most recent article is the current site.

You'll note the reference to land similar to SHGC, rolling terrain.
No such terrain exists west of the Sebonic Neck property all the way to the canal.
While the land isn't flat as a pancake, south of RT 27, it is close, north of Rt 27 all the way to the canal.

In addition, the only spot where you can have Peconic Bay front is on the 18th hole at NGLA, the 1st, 2nd, 18th and 11th at Sebonack.  As to the LIRR proximity, it's directly across the street from the Shinnecock Inn.

As to the site of the LIRR station I'd appreciate receiving your source of that info.

I'll be back to continue this post, I just have to run out on a few errands

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