[DMoriarty]

David,

I knew that was the time frame you were talking about, but has it been covered before (a Alan Wilson CBM rift?)  I really don't recall the discussion.  I do recall the bit about letters wondering if they should even bother to ask CBM to the initial green section meetings because he had been so cranky and could possibly ruin it.  Is that what you are referring to?

Yes.  I believe some seemed to think it a good idea to involve CBM, but Alan Wilson had issues, and actively campaigned against it, worrying that CBM might not "play ball" and that he would "crab" the meeting.    Doesn't exactly sound like they were pals.

At the same time, if it was widely known that Merion had been a CBM course, and then CBM took his name off it, I think that would likely to have made the papers somewhere as well.  He would have told someone, as just leaving it out of his book might have been too subtle a clue he was peeved, no?  He had to have told someone.

Or, maybe, he had never cared much about his contributions to Merion, and at this time he was pissed enough to have told old Whigham "Those bastards, after all I did for them at Merion?"  Not out of the question as a possibility to explain the HJW eulogy that is at odds with other recollections (IMHO, I know you don't think so)

Just trying to comprehend the possible (possible) scenarios in CBM removing his name.

These types of posts make me shake my head at how different your understanding of CBM is than mine, and how influenced you are by modern notions.  At this point courses didn't have "names" attached to them like they do today.  If they did have a name attached it was because there was one person running the show (whether or not they designed the course.) That is why it is so hard to figure who did what.  

And CBM didn't run around attaching his name to everything he touched.  He wasn't drumming up business, he was tryin to help spread sound principles of creating golf courses.  He probably thought little of Merion one way or another. He helped them out with their plan, got them going in the right track, and went on with his life.  Compared to what else he did I doubt it was much of a big deal.  He gave them a good start in planning and locating the hole location, and they did the rest themselves --CBM knew there was more to creating a course than just the initial routing and plan. Just look at NGLA.  

Still waiting for an answer to my questions.

[JESII]

And CBM didn't run around attaching his name to everything he touched.  He wasn't drumming up business, he was tryin to help spread sound principles of creating golf courses.  He probably thought little of Merion one way or another. He helped them out with their plan, got them going in the right track, and went on with his life.  Compared to what else he did I doubt it was much of a big deal.  He gave them a good start in planning and locating the hole location, and they did the rest themselves --CBM knew there was more to creating a course than just the initial routing and plan. Just look at NGLA.  

Still waiting for an answer to my questions.

David,

I know you've asked me questions that I haven't answered and would be happy too...but I generally see this thread about 2 pages after you ask me something and after reading all the interim posts I find myself wondering how it's possible...

Anyway, this last paragraph of yours is a real eye-opener. To me, that level of contribution from CBM would be more than easily recognized with the words given at the time. "Advisor". "Approved of". "Of the Greatest Help" etc...

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

It indeed had additional information, almost all of which is dead wrong, starting with the location of the Merion golf course in Lakewood, NJ.

I should know...I'm the one who found the article.

That circular, written on July 1st for internal purposes was released to the general Merion membership with other information soliciting their support in mid-November 1910.  

The erroneous news article appeared within a week.

Mike
You are confused. The article you are referring to with a dateline of Lakewood, NJ appeared in the Philadelphia Press, another newspaper. In that article it was reported Barker had been hired to design the golf course. There is nothing in the Phila Press article regarding Lloyd having CBM, HJW and HHB examine the property.

There was a major golf tournament being held in Lakewood that week, which is why the article was generated from that location. The article did not mention anything about the course being in Lakewood, and I think most in Philadelphia, which where the article appeared, would known the "Merion Cricket Club of Philadelphia" was not in NJ.  

Majority of the information in those articles was accurate, and the info within each was more or less consistent across the board, indicating there was a single source, and that sources was a well connected Merion man. Robert Lesley had ties to Lakewood, was a former journalist, and was intimately familiar with the golfing press through his presidency at the GAP and his involvement with the Lesley Cup. It is very possible he was the source.

[DMoriarty]

Jim I realize the pages pass pretty quickly, but I am hoping at some point you will try to get to the questions.

As for the last post, I am not exactly sure what is so eye opening. I've never claimed that CBM did anything significant after the planning. Even within the planning I have always focused on the routing and the hole concepts, and there is much more to creating a golf course than just that, and have always maintained that it was Wilson and Merion who were responsible for what followed this initial planning.  

As for the term advisor, as I have written repeatedly, I too think it may have been appropriate term at the time because given the context of the time, I am not sure what else to call his role.  He didn't lay the course out on the ground, he didn't build it, he wasn't working for them, they weren't working for him, and it is rare to read of anyone referred to as the "architect" especially when that person didn't actually have something to do with seeing the project through until it was finished.  Part of what NGLA changed was the level of appreciation for this somewhat abstract concept of "design." CBM did what he did out of love for the game and as a friendly and valuable advisor, but to me that isn't the limitation or knock you guys try to place on it.  

It doesn't say "approved of" it said he approved the plan.  You treat this as if it was some outside observation, like, by the way, CBM stopped by and even he liked what we were doing,  but that ignores the context, the trip before and that he was obviously there to make the final decision about their routing!

Maybe you will answer the question Jeff will not.

If Tom Doak was in a room with a contour map and 2-5 guys who knew nothing about creating strategic golf courses like Tom Doak creates, and Doak had already been over their land, and they asked Tom what they should do, who do you think would be coming up with the ideas for their course?   Doak or them?   And would you be surprised if they wanted Doak to come back to their land to go over it all again and sort out the loose ends and make sure they were on the right track?

[JESII]

David, (and Tom M),

I would listen to everything Tom Doak would offer, and try to replicate as much of it as possible. I have to ask you something...what do you think the odds are that I could get Tom to stop by a project I'm working on with a few friends to offer that advice? It's a serious question.

[Mike Cirba]

Mike
You are confused. The article you are referring to with a dateline of Lakewood, NJ appeared in the Philadelphia Press, another newspaper. In that article it was reported Barker had been hired to design the golf course. There is nothing in the Phila Press article regarding Lloyd having CBM, HJW and HHB examine the property.

There was a major golf tournament being held in Lakewood that week, which is why the article was generated from that location. The article did not mention anything about the course being in Lakewood, and I think most in Philadelphia, which where the article appeared, would known the "Merion Cricket Club of Philadelphia" was not in NJ.  


Tom,

No, sorry, but no confusion here.

The article in question not only has a byline of Lakewood, NJ, but also a title and subtitle that reads;

Merion Club Buys Fine Golf Links

Pays $85,000 for 117 Acres Near the Present Location at Lakewood


Sorry as well, but NONE of Barker's supposed involvement with Merion s mentioned at all in the Merion Cricket Club minutes, nor is any further affiliation or contact with HH Barker beyond Joseph Connell of HDC bringing him onsite while he was in Philadelphia for the US Open to try to entice Merion to buy his property in June of 1910.

For over 100 years of minutes, documentation, club correspondence, etc., there is not a single mention of Barker.

You're barking up the wrong tree, Tom, sorry.

[Mike Cirba]

Tom Doak's experience in architecture and course building as the creator of courses around the globe in 2011 dwarfs CB Macdonald's in 1910.

That analogy is absolutely ridiculous and desperate, as once again David has NO EVIDENCE or factual support for his increasingly bizarre assertions.

It's like playing whack a mole trying to clarify the amazing volume of daily inaccurate historical distortions of the three blind mice.

[JESII]

Sorry Mike, but among the most ridiculous assertions on these threads is that the Merion Committee (presumably in total) would travel to NGLA for two days, in the midst of planning their course, to visit one of the leaders of golf in America, who they had already asked at least a single specific favor regarding their course, and not spend some time discussing Merion...

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

On a broad scale discussing principles of great holes, yes, no question, and both Hugh Wilson's account and the Merion CC minutes make that clear.   They also discussed how they could possibly apply those principles to their natural inland conditions with clay-based soils, etc.

However, on a micro scale, as David suggests, with a contour map routing Merion, there is no evidence at all that such a thing occurred and frankly it would have been hugely disingenuous and really outright deception for guys like Hugh Wilson and Robert Francis not to have mentioned that if it actually happened.

I don't believe they were like that, do you?

There is no evidence whatsoever that CBM "routed" Merion or created a routing plan.    

It's funny...David argues on his Opinion paper that the routing is the heart and soul of the golf course and that the routing created at Merion is really what made the golf course great. (despite the fact that 8 holes have been partially or wholly rerouted since inception).

Yet, now here he is, trying to tell you what you want to hear, saying that there is much more to design than routing.  

Too much...

Why would Merion NEVER credit CBM for routing their course if he had done so?    Especially the guy who was probably the most preeminent man in golf at the time.

[JESII]

I don't believe they were like that, do you?

No! And that's why I believe when they thanked him for his advice/suggestions/input it was for some truly material guidance.

I do think if they had asked him to take the lead in designing the holes they would have thanked him fr that, in no uncertain terms.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

Well, I am getting confused now with your third paragraph in post 2538.  It looks like we agree on a whole lot now, except for the timing of the routing, and the total extent of CBM's contribution to the routing, which we both want to know, but probably never will to any precise extent.  So, some progress is possible on these threads!

To answer your question, I suppose that if they brought a check, Tom is known for seeing routings very quickly and would probably have something done in a quick while, providing he could work with people looking over his shoulder.  Don't laugh. I find it hard to work out routings unless very, very alone, or perhaps batting ideas off a close associate, but rarely a stranger!

All of which goes to say answering yes to your hypothetical doesn't really answer the question of just how CBM would work in similar circumstances.  We just don't know.  There was a lot on the agenda, including CBM being a gracious host.  We do not know the whole dynamics of that meeting.  So all is possible, nothing guaranteed as to what happened, right?  I'm not even sure you can say it was more or less likely that CBM pulled out the scale maps and routed it right in front of them, even though I would say the plans they brought to the meeting got unrolled at some point.

BTW, I am just goofing with you here, but you noted that you believed no one but Wilson did a lot of work on the committee until construction, and is this somehow a defense of your idea that Francis came up with his swap idea prior to November 15, 1910?  That would take some seemingly clever explanation to reconcile, but I have no doubt you will have something to say on the matter!

[DMoriarty]

Jim,

You'll have to ask Tom about that.  But whether he would or not, CBM and HJW did it for Merion.  And it was not as if the project was next door, or their involvement was limited to a passing glance.  They twice traveled to Merion to go over the land and help plan the course, and the entertained some sort of group from Merion for two days at NGLA, and we don't know how many letters CBM and Wilson exchanged, but we know they were writing.

But you are right, you would listen to everything and try to replicate as much as possible. You'd be an idiot not to listen and follow everything he said, and you'd be an idiot not to have him do as much as he was willing to do.   And you know a hell of a lot more about this stuff than did those at Merion.   

Mike's claim about Tom Doak vs. Charles B. Macdonald is pretty funny considering Tom Doak recently built a world class course utilizing CBM's concepts throughout.   But Cirba and the Merionettes have to disrespect Macdonald and overhype those at Merion, otherwise the lunacy of this discussion becomes readily apparent.   

This was Charles Blair Macdonald and Henry James Whigham,  and Merion had them come and go over their course,  spent two days with him talking about their course, and then had them come back again to choose and approve the final plan.   It is lunacy to believe that CBM and HJW were anything but the driving creative force behind the initial plan.  And when one starts to look closely at the course Merion built this lunacy is taken to another level.   
-------------------------------------------------

David,

Well, I am getting confused now with your third paragraph in post 2538.  It looks like we agree on a whole lot now, except for the timing of the routing, and the total extent of CBM's contribution to the routing, which we both want to know, but probably never will to any precise extent.  So, some progress is possible on these threads!

I am saying what amounts to the same thing I have been saying for quite some time.  You guys are so caught up in trying to posture and save face for the Merionettes that you have never bothered to figure out my position.

To answer your question, I suppose that if they brought a check, Tom is known for seeing routings very quickly and would probably have something done in a quick while, providing he could work with people looking over his shoulder.  Don't laugh. I find it hard to work out routings unless very, very alone, or perhaps batting ideas off a close associate, but rarely a stranger!

All of which goes to say answering yes to your hypothetical doesn't really answer the question of just how CBM would work in similar circumstances.  We just don't know.

But we do know.  CBM had already been over the land had had some ideas.  So much so that he could recommend specific features to use, recommend the addition of the land behind the clubhouse, and enough to suggest that he was a contour map away from handing them their golf course.  And we know that before NGLA they had that contour map.   It doesn't take a genius to figure out the rest, especially given that he was to return to the land to double check and tie up loose ends.

We also know from Whigham's description that he was adept at providing guidance off a contour map.   

As for your goofing, I don't think Francis was at all interested in the intricacies of strategic design.  I don't think cared much about the hole concepts.   He found them some land to solve a space problem.

[Tom MacWood]

Mike
You are confused. The article you are referring to with a dateline of Lakewood, NJ appeared in the Philadelphia Press, another newspaper. In that article it was reported Barker had been hired to design the golf course. There is nothing in the Phila Press article regarding Lloyd having CBM, HJW and HHB examine the property.

There was a major golf tournament being held in Lakewood that week, which is why the article was generated from that location. The article did not mention anything about the course being in Lakewood, and I think most in Philadelphia, which where the article appeared, would known the "Merion Cricket Club of Philadelphia" was not in NJ.  


Tom,

No, sorry, but no confusion here.

The article in question not only has a byline of Lakewood, NJ, but also a title and subtitle that reads;

Merion Club Buys Fine Golf Links

Pays $85,000 for 117 Acres Near the Present Location at Lakewood


Sorry as well, but NONE of Barker's supposed involvement with Merion s mentioned at all in the Merion Cricket Club minutes, nor is any further affiliation or contact with HH Barker beyond Joseph Connell of HDC bringing him onsite while he was in Philadelphia for the US Open to try to entice Merion to buy his property in June of 1910.

For over 100 years of minutes, documentation, club correspondence, etc., there is not a single mention of Barker.

You're barking up the wrong tree, Tom, sorry.

Mike
You are confused. I did not cite that article. And your article clearly mentions the golf course is 'Merion Cricket Club of Philadelphia' in the opening sentence. The primary headline states 'Merion Club Buys Fine Golf Links' and the secondary headline states 'Pays $85,000 for 117 Acres Near the Present Location at Lakewood', but as you probably know the headlines are often written by the copy editor so most people don't much stock in them, but for whatever reason you do. The article does not mention anything about Lakewood.

[Jeff_Brauer]

No doubt Francis had nothing to do with strategy. Just trying to figure out how you say he didn't work before constructon and came up with his swap before November 15, 1910 at the same time.

As for the rest, invite me to the next seance you have with those old boys, so I can be as sure as you are!  You are stretching that beyond reasonable bounds.  The minutes say Merion took many plans, and they say they did five more after they returned.  No one said anything about CBM preparing a plan at NGLA.  So, that part of it is speculation anyway.

And, believe me, we have all tried to understand your position.  Not for lack of effort over seven years that we disagree in spots.

[Tom MacWood]

For over 100 years of minutes, documentation, club correspondence, etc., there is not a single mention of Barker.

I'm pretty sure Barker is mentioned in the minutes though I don't put a lot of stock in what is or isn't in the minutes.  

[JESII]

Tom,

Do you think Lloyd brought in Barker and CBM because the articles say so?

Or do you think he brought in Barker as part of HDC? And CBM because CBM's letter was addressed to Lloyd?

Clearly the letter to the membership makes it clear who Merion thinks brought in Barker and CBM and it wasn't Lloyd for either.

[Jeff_Brauer]

TMac,

I will agree with you over Mike on the headline writers.  Cannot agree on your longstanding position about club minutes being less accurate than, say gossip columnists.  Funny, that in one post you both critique the accuracy of some of the newspaper process (headlines wrong) and yet defend second hand sources over people who were actually there.

That really boggles my mind.  

Jim,

I will answer although your question is to Tom - its a no brainer that HDC brought in Barker to represent their half of the interests.  And its certainly not uncommon for a club in that situation to bring in their own guy for an honest second opinion from their perspective.

The record is clear.  HDC (whether you count that as Lloyd or Connell) brought in Barker, but Merion wanted nothing to do with him.  Not in a negative way, but they wanted to work with CBM for all his fame.

I am not sure how anyone can argue that one any other way.  And of course, I know David will chime in - yeah they wanted to work with CBM.  I know it sounds like I am saying he is the designer.  But I think the record is also clear that he was simpl their trustd advisor, for reasons we don't know, like him not being quite set up in a design practice with Raynor, their desire to emulate NGLA down to the amateur commmittee deign, etc.  It was a unique hybrid relationship to be sure.

[Tom MacWood]

Tom,

Do you think Lloyd brought in Barker and CBM because the articles say so?

Or do you think he brought in Barker as part of HDC? And CBM because CBM's letter was addressed to Lloyd?

Clearly the letter to the membership makes it clear who Merion thinks brought in Barker and CBM and it wasn't Lloyd for either.

Jim
I think he brought in Barker and CBM because the source of the info in the articles was clearly an insider. Also anyone who has studied Lloyd would appreciate he was a person who sought the best talent available. That same year Lloyd hired Wilson Eyre, one of the great architects in America, to design his home in the shadow of the East course.

The CBM letter was not included in the package presented to the club; they were told Griscom engaged him. Lloyd was clearly calling the shots and would be the logical person to bring in both Barker and CBM, as the articles state.

[DMoriarty]

No doubt Francis had nothing to do with strategy. Just trying to figure out how you say he didn't work before constructon and came up with his swap before November 15, 1910 at the same time.

He wasn't on the construction committee when he figured out the space problem. Three of the members of the construction committee reportedly made substantial contributions that previous summer and fall.  Lloyd (the deal), Griscom (who reportedly got CBM to come, but I have my doubts,) and Francis with his swap. This may explain why they got put on the committee.  Once the committee was formed, I see no evidence that anyone on the construction committee other than Wilson did anything before NGLA, and I have my doubts about who exactly was at NGLA.

As for the rest, invite me to the next seance you have with those old boys, so I can be as sure as you are!

You don't need to be seer to know what is going on here.  We have a course with the usual CBM features, holes, and concepts, and an extensive record of his involvement in the design process.  You guys are only kidding yourselves at this point.  

You are stretching that beyond reasonable bounds.  The minutes say Merion took many plans, and they say they did five more after they returned.

Speaking of stretching . . . that is not what the minutes say.  It doesn't say they took any plans to NGLA.  It says, "After laying out many different courses on the new land, they went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald and spent the evening looking over his plans and the various data he had gathered abroad . . . ."  The only plans mentioned are CBM's plans.   And what an odd way of putting it. They went down to the National course with Mr. Macdonald? Sort of makes it sound like CBM was with them the whole time.  

No one said anything about CBM preparing a plan at NGLA.  So, that part of it is speculation anyway.

Do you think Merion prepared his plans?  Funny how you all ignore this.  I don't.

Isn't this a strange report still?  There isn't just the changes to first person and the lack of description of who did what, there is also the way they just throw in Macdonald.   It is as if they had already been discussing what was ongoing, or as if there is something missing.  Compare it to the first Lesley report, which sets everything out in detail, including the detail of who was on the Committee.    Here, they just throw out Macdonald as if everyone was aware of his involvement. We went with Mr. Macdonald down to the National, as if he was was with him all along.  Did the board even know who they were talking about at this point? How? Did they remember from nine months earlier that this Macdonald fellow had come to see their course?   Did the board even remember who Mr. Macdonald was?  When they are supposed to be designing the course what are they doing going on a weekend getaway with this Mr. Macdonald?  

And who went to NGLA?   Why doesn't the report say?   And why don't we have the rest of the minutes from this meeting?  This is just a report. We have a resolution, but surely there was more to the meeting than this?

And why again were they reporting this to the board?  I don't understand that.  If Macdonald wasn't planning the course then why did Lesley report that they went to the National course with Mr. Macdonald to go over his plans? If it wasn't crucial to the design then why is it being reported to the board?  If Merion planned it, why didn't they Lesley just say, Hugh Wilson and his committee planned the course, and here is the plan?  Same questions about CBM's next visit?

And at this point why is Wilsonchopped liver.  He doesn't even get a mention.  Any why couldn't his committee, the vaunted construction committee, planners of the great Merion course, even make the Merion's board minutes?  

Yet you guys ask to dismiss all the mentions of CBM and HJW and expect me to believe that they never bother to even mention who designed their course?

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

We have been over your screwball interpretations many times.

Its well known that CBM had plans of those famous holes in Scotland.  They are referring to those plans and the other data he collected.

The grammar has some flaws and tense changes, but I don't consider all those things relevant.  Your interpretation is a stretch.

I doubt they had forgotten CBM was involved.  I doubt the committee would forget who was on it, so it isn't mentioned.  How could you veer from CBM being such a famous guy to them not even recalling who he was?  The were golfers after all, or they wouldn't belong to the Merion Golf Club.

There is more about the inconsistencies of your arguments, but its late, and I prefer to celebrate the Mavs win.  Of course, it would have been better if the NBA could have somehow introduced ice and a puck to the game, but I'm happy.

[DMoriarty]

David,

We have been over your screwball interpretations many times.

Its well known that CBM had plans of those famous holes in Scotland.  They are referring to those plans and the other data he collected.

Funny how you can just pretend they brought plans with them with no mention of them having done that, yet it is "screwball" for me to interpret his plans as plans for Merion when that is exactly why those from Merion were there --to have CBM teach them what they should do at Merion.

Did he have actual plans from overseas?  I am not so sure.  He had collected surveyor data abroad, but Lesley mentions that as well.  He also mentions CBM's plans. Given that CBM had been over the land, had ideas, had given them hole lengths, and that they went to for his help planning Merion, it is hardly screwball to think that "his plans" may have referred to his plans for Merion.  You can argue that it meant plans something else, but YOU ARE SPECULATING to suit your needs and your insulting name-calling is just bogus.  

I doubt they had forgotten CBM was involved.  I doubt the committee would forget who was on it, so it isn't mentioned.  How could you veer from CBM being such a famous guy to them not even recalling who he was?  The were golfers after all, or they wouldn't belong to the Merion Golf Club.

Are you at all familiar with the history of Merion?   They weren't members of Merion Golf Club. They were members of Merion Cricket Club. There were thousands of members many or most of whom had nothing to do with golf.  They played tennis, socialized, and crickets and many of them had no interest in golf whatsoever. In fact there were controversies about even getting a golf house at the old course, and the golfers had to fund themselves from their own separate dues, thus the Merion Cricket Club Golf Association.  So it was hardly just a golf club.  

And the board had no idea who was on the committee because it was not Wilson's committee who was doing the reporting.  That is what you guys don't seem to get.  When I say Wilson's committee is chopped liver, it is worse than that.  A different committee is reporting about the plan for the golf course the chair of that committee (who wasn't even on Wilson's committee) doesn't even bother to mention Wilson's committee.    There is nothing in the board minutes that even mentioned Wilson's committee.  NOTHING.  NO REPORTS FROM WILON'S COMMITTEE, NO REFERENCE TO WILSON OR HIS COMMITTEE. NOTHING.   The Committee dealing the design are completely absent from the record!

I should clarify that we don't really know what is in the records, do we?

[DMoriarty]

I am going to go out on a limb here, but I am used to that.  I suspect that TEPaul and Wayne are bullshitting us yet again and playing games with the documents.  There is more to this Committee business than meets the eye, and they have not told us the entire story.  Not even in their Faker Fantasy.

I suspect that the vaunted "Construction Committee" wasn't even fully formed when we have been lead to believe it was formed, and perhaps not even before the plan was finalized, and that it was still Lesley's  Committee that was in charge, and that Wilson began working with that committee or had had taken a place on that committee at the beginning of the year or shortly thereafter.

[Mike Cirba]

After MacWood and Moriarty's last few incredibly bizarre posts, I'm confident that everyone here except CBM-groupie Patrick hears the "Looney Tunes" music playing, so have a nice day everyone.

Frankly even Patrick hears the calliope playing, but to him it sounds like Beethoven.

Wow...that's all I can say.   Wow.

[Jeff_Brauer]

David,

I am going to have to bow out of this one for  while, not entirely for reasons Mike stated, but because I have a busy week.  We have covered this ground before, and I understand most of where you come from.  But, I don't think its productive to go over it again, since I have tried to understand your positions, and know we won't agree.

Time to give our respective head banging walls a rest.  I need to send mine out for some minor repairs!

[Mike Cirba]

Uhhhhhh....yeah Jeff, me too...

Gotta get my hair done.

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