[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

You're seriously trying to tell us that the major road running to Southampton north of the rail tracks ran over the first tee at NGLA and in front of CBM's 18th green, and what's more, CBM routed his course knowing full well this was planned?

No, I"m not trying to do that, YOU are.
You're the one claiming the North Highway ran over the first tee at NGLA.
Could you show us any map proving your theory ?

And you call me disengenuous??

Yes, I did, and, you were.
You claimed that the North Highway didn't exist as late as 1914, ergo it couldn't exist in 1907, depite 1906 New York State Senate Minutes, earlier Maps and the 1906-07 advertisdents for the Shinnecock Inn all citing the existance of the North Highway.

You deliberately lied.

Further, what does seeing the Atlantic Ocean or not have to do with anything?

Didn't you post newspaper articles that declared that you could see the Atlantic Ocean from  everywhere on the site except the low lying areas. ?  

Where does it say that the first site CBM selected had an ocean view?  

In the newspaper articles you posted

Why are you not troubled that the site south of the rail tracks (in blue) that you and Brian both feel may have been the "Canal Site" has the much earlier developed South Highway running right through it?

Who stated that I wasn't troubled by that ?
Certainly not me.  That's just another of your misrepresentations
I made a clear caveat.  That caveat had to do with the newspaper articles YOU posted that stated that you could see the Atlantic from everywhere on the site except the low lying areas.   Based on that, I favored the Blue site over the red site.
Absent that newspaper article you posted, I would have favored the red site

Further, CBM himself said that the soil and dunes on the north side were much superior to those on the Atlantic side of Shinnecock Hills.

That proved not to be true, by CBM's own admission.
He had to truck in 10,000 loads of dirt to the final site in order to improve the soil conditions.

In addition, being somewhat familiar with the area, I would challenge CBM's evaluation of the land on the North and South side.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff Brauer,

CBM doesn't just say "near the canal", he states, "120 acres near the canal connecting Shinnecock Bay with the Great Peconic Bay"

I've always wondered if that site could have been west of the canal.

As to the configuration, we're all speculating, and that's OK

Mike in your green diagram you never answered my question as to how golfers were going to traverse the rather substantial inlet.
Could you address that issue ?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Pat,

Good evening.  I suggested that a month ago, and David correctly pointed out that the Realty Land ended at the canal. Other than that, there are parcels west of the canal that might fit the bill very well.

[Bryan Izatt]

Bryan,

Please look at the 1907 Olmstead MAP which incorporates the development plan.  Can we agree that it is a MAP that has a SUBDIVISION PLAN on it?



You will note that the South Highway, Railroad Line, Peconic Bay, Cold Spring Pond, Shinnecock Bay and North Highway are all depicted.  Yes, they are all depicted.

The MAP is accurate.  I assume that it accurately depicts the PLAN that Olmstead did for Peconic Realty.  As to its placement of highways, I think it is not accurate in the way you think it is.  See below.

The plan merely identifies/labels the block of parcels to be developed, but the main features, are in fact depicted as they existed in 1907, including the North Highway.  I disagree.  What it depicts is their development PLAN. See below for an explanation of why I think that is so.

Please look at where the North Highway passes UNDER the Railroad Trestle in the 1907 Map.
It's in the exact same location as it is today.  I don't think the scale of the map is accurate enough to make that determination.  However, it is logical that there was only one underpass and that it was at the location it is currently at.  I don't buy for a second your suggestion below that the trestle was built in the 1930's.  Are you suggesting that the Senate mandated the grade separation in December 1906 and they didn't get around to building it until the 1930's?
The North Highway appears in that 1907 map as the North Road appears today, as pictured in your photo.You may want to think so, but that is incorrect.  See explanation below.

We know, from contemporaneous advertisements by the Shinnecock Inn, in 1906-07, that the North Highway existed.  What we KNOW is that some North Highway existed, but we don't KNOW its configuration in 1907.  I find it amusing that you are relying on advertisements to support your statements.  I thought we were generally agreed that the sources, maps, contemporaneous news items, writings by CBM, writings by Whigham, etc are all of questionable accuracy on some or many points.  But those ads - man, they must be perfectly accurate.  

I suspect that the trestle will have a more modern date, perhaps in the 30's when many public works projects were completed.  So, they built another one in 1907 as mandated by the Senate, and then ripped it out and rebuilt it in the 1930's.

While I"m interested in the dedication plate, I"m also interested in what may be historical markers along the road.  If there are historical markers, that'd be persuasive too.

Also, please go to the other NGLA thread posted yesterday.  If it is the April Fools one, please tell me that your position on this stuff hasn't just been a longstanding April Fools day joke.

For your edification, I think the following may help clarify the road situation in your mind.  (Well, at least I can hope.)

The first map is the 1903 USGS map that I think we can agree is accurate and complete.  I have only done the western section because this is tedious work, and I believe it proves the point.  I've highlighted the existing roads in green.  Remember, that some are solid lines - improved roads; and some are dotted lines - unimproved roads.




The second map adds in blue those roads proposed in the 1907 Olmstead land plan that were not already there from 1903.  The combined blue and green roads match the Olmstead plan.  As you can see there were quite a few roads proposed to be added to the existing ones.  Of course, you would have us believe that those roads were built in the year between the time Peconic Bay bought the property and published their ad with the land plan.




The third map indicates in red, roads that were proposed in the Olmstead Plan that had not been built by 1916.  It also indicates in purple, the roads that existed in 1903, that no longer existed in 1916.  You'll note that the North Highway on the Olmstead Plan, that skirted the south shore of Cold Spring Pond, didn't get built there.  It was further south.  You might also note that the Olmstead Plan proposed a road and bridge across the North end on the Shinnecock Canal, in addition to the existing southern road bridge and the LIRR bridge.  This northern crossing wasn't built by 1916 and isn't there today.  And, of course the segment of the North Highway that transgressed NGLA, as Mike has pointed out, that never got built there either.  Bottom line, the Olmstead Plan is not a foolproof MAP of what was on the ground in 1907.  It was a land PLAN on a map.

[Bryan Izatt]

Mike,

You indicated that you had further thoughts about the October article that you were going to bring forward a week ago.  Jim asked you about that a few posts back, and I'll add my voice to his.  What additional thoughts on the article do you have? 

As for your question below I'm still confused about what you think your proposed layout is, so I'll ask a second time - Is this what you think might be the 120 parcel that CBM said he offered on?  Or, is it some mystery version of what they bought (optioned?) two months later, that turned into the current layout?  Or, something else?

Bryan,

Based on your knowledge of the North road in 1906, is there anything that would discount this possibly being the approximate site mentioned in the article?  I've said before, and I'll say again - no, I don't think your drawing fits this description nor is it the site of the 120 acre offer or the final site.  By the way, what you've marked out is about 180 acres.  Not near any of 120 or 205 or 250 or 450 acres

Shinnecock Hills GC adjoining on the East  It doesn't adjoin it.  Sort of kitty corner.

Skirting the Long Island Rail Road to the South  Nope, it doesn't meet my understanding of "skirting".

Western Boundary near the inlet between Shinnecock Station and Good Ground  Depends upon which inlet they are talking about and what acreage your trying to match it too.  If it's 120 acres, where are you going to take 60 acres off?

Stretching along Peconic Bay to the North  Nope, it stretches along Cold Spring Pond.

Using Shinnecocck Inn as the clubhouse  Is that from this article? Or, another one.  Or, CBM's writings?

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Thank you for your very thorough, factual, and painstaking analysis.

I personally would have loved to see you do the same thing with the road system further east in Shinneocock, nearer the Inn, but I do understand how time-consuming it is and I do think you've proven your point to everyone in the world except perhaps for Patrick, who will deny the truth til the end.

Thanks again...I'm hoping I can find time later today to answer your questions, and I really appreciate you coming onto this thread because you are a stand-up guy who provides value and objectivity.

[Mike Cirba]

Bryan,

Based on your knowledge of the North road in 1906, is there anything that would discount this possibly being the approximate site mentioned in the article?  I've said before, and I'll say again - no, I don't think your drawing fits this description nor is it the site of the 120 acre offer or the final site.  By the way, what you've marked out is about 180 acres.  Not near any of 120 or 205 or 250 or 450 acres

Shinnecock Hills GC adjoining on the East  It doesn't adjoin it.  Sort of kitty corner.

Skirting the Long Island Rail Road to the South  Nope, it doesn't meet my understanding of "skirting".

Western Boundary near the inlet between Shinnecock Station and Good Ground  Depends upon which inlet they are talking about and what acreage your trying to match it too.  If it's 120 acres, where are you going to take 60 acres off?

Stretching along Peconic Bay to the North  Nope, it stretches along Cold Spring Pond.

Using Shinnecocck Inn as the clubhouse  Is that from this article? Or, another one.  Or, CBM's writings?








Bryan,

It has been offered here that the October 15th 1906 article (see my snippet above) is talking about the land on Sebonac Neck that CBM eventually purchased.

While I can see some of your points here in reference to my approximate drawing , I also think you're nitpicking a bit.

By contrast, do you think that the land of the existing NGLA golf course in any way had the 1906 Shinnecock GC adjoining to the east, skirted the Long Island Rail Tracks to the south, or has its most westerly point the inlet between Good Ground and Shinnecock Station?

Which of the two properties more accurately fall into the parameters described in the article?   Either?


As regards your other questions, I'll try to answer more comprehensively as I'm able, but for now let me state the following;

1) I believe an accurate reading of CBM's book indicates that he made his first offer for the "Canal Site" not in late 1905, but in 1906 after his return from abroad.   I believe CBM decided that he would build his course somewhere in Shinnecock Hills in late 1905, after Alvord's company purchased the whole shebang late that year.   Within a month or so, CBM was on a boat to GBI for five months, not just to study the great courses and ideal holes, but more precisely, to have exact surveyor's topographical maps drawn of them.    I don't believe CBM would have made an offer for a specific parcel of land PRIOR to having the exact specs for what he wanted to build on that land.

2) I have no idea what a view of the ocean has to do with any first site for the golf course.   I think that's simply misleading refuse from Patrick's speculation that you couldn't see the Atlantic from anywhere on the Sebonac Neck site (in 1906, which includes the higher land of today's Sebonack GC)  before a lot of tree growth over the past century.   Certainly, I've never seen anything indicating that the "Canal Site" had ocean views, but I have seen a number of articles stating that views of the seas existed from almost every vantage point in Shinnecock Hills.   Was that marketing or reality?    I don't know, but Patrick who pretends to know doesn't know either.

3) I think the site described in the article is very possibly the "canal site".   Although it's western edge is half-mile from the canal, that's a damn site closer than the 1.5 miles that the western edge of NGLA is from the Inlet described as the western edge in the article.   Besides, what other landmark could they state it was close to?   Travelling east, the canal would be the last thing you'd go past other than open meadows before reaching the course.

4) In 1905, newspapers reported the CBM was mostly looking to build near Westbury, not far from Meadowbrook CC at that time.

5) Only one NYC newspaper, the Evening Telegram, reported that site in October of 1906.   In fact, that article, which was published on Monday, October 15th, was followed by a verbatim article the next day in the Rochester (NY) Democrat, and very similar articles the next day in Boston that David later posted here.   David had speculated that perhaps the Boston papers had the scoop because CBM was there at a tournament at Myopia, but it appears the story had it's genesis in NYC with the Telegram.

Within weeks, other papers, including the Brooklyn Daily Eagle which seems to have been by far the most accurate and detailed throughout the entire year and a half saga, wrote that CBM had indeed not made up his mind yet, but was considering a number of sites in "various sections" of Shinnecock Hills.   The NY Sun indicated more specifically on November 1st that he as still looking at a site in western Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground, as well as in Montauk.

Conversely, when CBM actually did ink the papers to secure 205 undetermined acres out of the 450 available to him on Sebonac Neck on December 14th, 1906, within days ALL the major newspapers in NYC were carrying the story in detail.  

6) As regards the "120 acres", I'd speculate that the following may have happened.    We know CBM was primarily interested in golf, but we know his plans and original solicitation to membership included needing about 205 acres with the promise of building lots for Founders.    We also know that CBM felt he'd need about 110 acres for his golf course, and another five for a clubhouse and surrounds, so I think it's reasonable to assume he felt he could do the golf course on 120 acres.  

I think he may have gone to Alvord seeking 205 acres in and around where I've approximated, but Alvord said no...he had his own plans for real estate in that area and didn't want competition for estate land sales.   Given that reality, I think perhaps CBM went back to him asking if he could at least have his 120 acres for golf in that neighborhood (which is the offer he recalled 25 years later in his book), but probably again was shot down.  

It's important also to note that NO newspapers of the time, despite some detailed coverage over a number of years, EVER mentioned anything about CBM offering to buy land adjacent to the Canal, either in 1905 or any other year.

I think possibly as consolation that Alvord may have suggested that CBM consider his at the time "unplanned" land up to the northeast on Sebonac Neck, but I believe this whole process happened quickly and sequentially, just like its described in the book.   I think that CBM and Whigham spent a few days riding around and were excited by the prospects, and had some of their friends come by in coming days to confirm.

I think by November that Alvord agreed to sell CBM 205 acres of the 450 available at $20K, of which "securing" contract papers were signed a few weeks later on December 14th.  

So, in closing, I think the October articles were generally mistaken, and derivative from that original October 15th Evening Herald article, and were likely some confused amalgam of land CBM had been considering and had made an offer for somewhere down to the west of Shinnecock Hills extending out to the inlet towards Good Ground, and the land that he had just been offered to consider stretching further to the northeast.   As described, the area is well over 1000 acres, which makes no sense for a golf course, or for a land purchase.   Certainly, that Evening Telegram article was not confirmed by any other independent NYC newspaper source.

I think CBM likely spent a lot of time looking at land between Shinnecock Bay and Peconic Bay after his return from abroad in June, and likely made his canal offer sometime by early September.  

I think CBM then was asked to consider the Sebonac Neck land, and after he and Whigham rode it, they invited Travis, Chauncey, and friends over the next few weeks, and also negotiated pricing with Alvord which took them to sometime in November.

Once they all felt comfortable with the price and the general land forms for golf, feeling comfortable that they had enough land of contiguous quality to build what they wanted, lawyers drafted papers that gave CBM the right to select the 205 acres of the 450 he felt best for golf over the next several months and papers were signed.

After CBM and his committee determined the holes and finalized the routing, the property was surveyed by Raynor, the boundaries staked, and the purchase finalized in the spring of 1907.

I may be wrong...but that's what I think happened.

[Mike Cirba]

I'm hopeful as well that my post above includes my responses to David's questions about the site.   If there is anything I missed, please let me know and I'll try to give my best shot.

In the meantime, here's the only reference we know of to the "Canal Site". 

[JESII]

Thanks Mike, I would like to take the time to put my full thesis on paper like that and will try to, but no promises.

I think my primary disagreements with your logic are that you are anchoring that theoretical site to the Shinnecock Inn when I see no reason to. CBM identified it as "near the canal" and that's good enough for me. Second is that you dismiss the words "secured" and "purchased" in those October articles...instead attempting to prove and disprove certain locations based on much more ambiguous terms like "adjoin", "skirted" and "near".

I'll reiterate that those descriptors are intended to be read by people in places that are likely not as familiar with each and every feature out there at the end of Long Island as we now are. This fact became clear to me when I measured the distance from the Shinnecock Inn to Peconic Bay along your possible site. It's just not that far. This is a really small area in the grand scheme of things.

The first offer may well have been in the summer of 1906, I can't debate it or agree to it...it just doesn't matter all that much to me.

Didn't the second newspaper article say something along the lines of "it was to be kept secret but now that that other paper has released it I guess we will as well..."? I'll go look for it, but if you have it to re-post I would appreciate it.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

A couple of things in response;

1) Since I believe with about 90% certainty that all of this happened in 1906, AFTER CBM returned with his topo maps of the great holes and features abroad, I also believe that this would have all happened in a similar timeframe of getting information about the imminent creation of the Shinnecock Inin.   

We know he didn't have money upfront to build a clubhouse and I think finding out about the Inn was one of the key VOILA! moments that drove the eventual purchase.   I just think that CBM would have likely first looked at land west of the Inn than what sounds to have been much more uncharted territory to the north of it.

I do believe some type of Inn existed out near the Canal, but I'm not sure the size or convenience.

2) Interesting you mentioned the news article that referred to keeping secrets.   What i found out recently is that all happened in June/July 1905, not 1906.   The scoop wasn't about the Shinnecock HIlls specifically, either, it was about Long Island generally, and when the Brooklyn Daily Eagle broke the news they wrote in July 05 that CBM was looking around Westbury, LI, near Meadowbrook CC.

Hope that helps.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Also, here again is the "Mother Article" from the NY Evening Telegram on October 15th, 1906 that the two Boston articles (as well as a verbatim one the next day in the Rochester (NY) Democrate) seem to have sprung from.

There is no mention of "securing".   I believe that was simply the Boston writer trying to make it sound like an original article, although it's obviously cobbled.




For comparison, here's the Boston article published the next day;

[JESII]

No mention of "securing"? What do you suppose "purchased" would be synonymous with?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

Please see my edit/addition above.   Thanks.

As regards purchasing, we know for a fact that no purchase took place at that time (it happened in the spring of 1907), and we also know for a fact that contracts weren't signed to secure the Sebonac Neck property until mid December, two months later.    Multiple NYC papers posted in-depth articles about the securing of the land in December in the days following that event, and they were remarkably consistent, if also clearly written by different writers privy to the same information.

I think the October articles mixes a number of facts and some assumptions, and the fact it wasn't copied by other NYC papers leads me to believe that the greater thrust of it is erroneous, although it contains interesting insights into the process by that time.

[JESII]

Mike,

I think it plays perfectly with CBM's description of the process and the resulting 3-step process for acquisition.

1 - realized we wanted to buy within this 450 acres
2 - realized the exact 205 we wanted to buy
3 - formalized the transaction with cash in the spring

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I would generally agree, but sense that the time between the horse rides in September and (first gaining agreement with Alvord) and then the signing of that agreement to secure 205 undetermined acres of 450 available took a few months, which probably shouldn't be too surprising when you think about it.

I think one area we may still disagree is the site of the land described in the Oct article.    If it included Sebonac Necik, it would include a site over 1000 acres in size, which really seems to me to include both the original site as well as the site he eventually purchased. 

Related please consider that November articles talked about a site in western Shinnecock Hills near Good Ground, so there may have been both sites in Shinnecock Hills still in play at that time.

[JESII]

Isn't it more likely that the descriptions in those articles were general descriptions of the land the realty company owned than exact boundaries of the course?

[Andy Hughes]

Does anyone know when CBM bought the land for Ballyshear?Can you really look down over NGLA from there?

[Mike Cirba]

Isn't it more likely that the descriptions in those articles were general descriptions of the land the realty company owned than exact boundaries of the course?


Jim,

IF the landform in the article measured something around 450 acres (the size of the Sebonac Neck tract) I'd completely agree.   THe problem is that the area from point to point to point to point is probably around 1000 acres if we assume the Sebonac Neck land was included in that parcel referenced in the October 15 article.

If it was the land owned by the Reality Company, that would included 2700 acres stretching from the canal to Southampton.

[JESII]

The realty company owned 2000+ acres, didn't they?

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

The Realty Company purchased/owned over 2700 acres, stretching from the Canal at Good Ground to almost Southampton, excluding the land owned by Shinnecock Hills GC and a few previously built estate homes.

It was a much larger area than what was described in that article.

[JESII]

With the exception of land south of the railroad tracks, how does the defined area not fit the described area better than anything else being thrown against the wall? Remember, I think the perspective of the reader of the articles is important in deciphering just what is being located.

[Jeff Taylor]

Is it unreasonable to ask that a summary post be made so that readers can see what has been established from this thread and what remains to be vaildated?
Thanks.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jeff T,

Yes, probably too much too ask.

All we can say for certain after 35 pages is that many folks use the word "disingenous" a lot.

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

I'm not sure if what I've drawn in green is accruate as the boundary of the 2700 acres of the Alvord holdings (versus your interpreation of the land the article describes in yellow), but the gap is pretty significant, especially since the article talks about it being a specific "250 acres".

Which, of course, makes me think the writer wasn't quite talking as far norh as Sebonac Neck with his description, or even merging information from multiple sites CBM was looking at.

[Mike Cirba]

All we can say for certain after 35 pages is that many folks use the word "disingenous" a lot.

Jeff,

There you go lying again, you disengenous sl*t!   
 
 

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