[JNC Lyon]

I used a double strap carry - stand bag for years.  Had to buy a little canvas Sunday bag at Prestwick when my clubs didn't arrive on my flight.  I dug that bag out again due to the new baggage rules and used it all fall in Finland.  Even with 14 clubs and being 50 and a bad knee, I had no problem walking.  However, if I get a blister, I might want a cart, but otherwise, I'm a convert.

JC, taking exception to your statement that all modern courses are designed as cart courses.  I think many of us, while trying to accomodate the fact that carts will be an option, do not design in such a manner that allows that fact to take precidence over our design tennants.  In fact, I don't even think of or refer to them as "Cart Paths".  To me, they are service roads for maintenance.  I don't specify that the course purchase golf carts.  If they do so on their own and let those carts drive on the service roads - that's up to them.  However, I will try to intregrate them into the mozaic of the terrain in the lest visually offensive way possible. So, to me, carts are a management issue, not a design isssue.

Tim,

I understand that some modern courses are not designed as cart courses, and that many architects make an effort to hide cart paths.  However, a good percentage of modern courses use more land and have longer walks between greens and tees.  All people need to realize that are overhead shots of modern golf courses.  Modern layouts now incorporate housing developments and long distances between holes because carts make it possible.  This new trend makes rounds longer, disrupts the flow of a golf course, and de-emphasizes the importance of routing.

I understand that many architects make an effort to make courses walkable today.  However, the most walkable courses still are not as walkable as many of the best classic walking layouts.

[Tim Nugent]

Well JC, comparing real estate courses to classic courses is a bit apples and oranges. But you are correct in that such nusances like roads do cause some longer walks.  But, if the architect gets to be involved from inception and have a major input in the landplanning, these can be minimized. But the architect, too often, "inherits" a land plan concieved by a land planner or engineer that 1) doesn't understand golfI  and 2) is trying to maximize real estate value.

Also, bear in mind that golf is relegated to a greater extent "less than buildable" land and is forced to absorb all the ills of a site.  I know this is no excuse for longer courses green to tee but in that case, the time lost to from A to B in a cart is minimal. Walking, on the other hand can be time consuming and a chore. On the same hand, I know of many classic era courses that also have long transitions but somehow, since no outside element (roads, housing) are present, no one ever brings it up.  And when those "Classic Era" courses are lengthened, there can be many long hikes back to those tees. 

Not trying to argue, just submitting a bit of perspective.  Nothing is all white or all black.

Cheers

[Sean_A]

Am I alone in thinking the click clak of clubs is rude?

Only if someone is trying to hit and that is an easily solved problem.  

Its hard to imagine that the proliferation of carts hasn't had a detrimental effect on modern design - if one considers a walking friendly course as an important design feature.  However, I can accept all the reasons for cart golf such as housing developments, swampy land, mountainous land, etc., there is a place for that sort of thing and these courses are easily avoided if one is so inclined.  That said, folks aren't gonna convince me (with some exceptions) that in general the demand for a good routing is just as important with a walking course as a riding course.  An archie can get away with some shit if he knows folks are riding that is harder to explain if folks are walking.  

Ciao

[JNC Lyon]

Well JC, comparing real estate courses to classic courses is a bit apples and oranges. But you are correct in that such nusances like roads do cause some longer walks.  But, if the architect gets to be involved from inception and have a major input in the landplanning, these can be minimized. But the architect, too often, "inherits" a land plan concieved by a land planner or engineer that 1) doesn't understand golfI  and 2) is trying to maximize real estate value.

Also, bear in mind that golf is relegated to a greater extent "less than buildable" land and is forced to absorb all the ills of a site.  I know this is no excuse for longer courses green to tee but in that case, the time lost to from A to B in a cart is minimal. Walking, on the other hand can be time consuming and a chore. On the same hand, I know of many classic era courses that also have long transitions but somehow, since no outside element (roads, housing) are present, no one ever brings it up.  And when those "Classic Era" courses are lengthened, there can be many long hikes back to those tees.  

Not trying to argue, just submitting a bit of perspective.  Nothing is all white or all black.

Cheers

Tim,

I think the new distance that is supposedly required for classic courses exposes some routing flaws in the Golden Age designs.  I believe Ross pointed out that golf architects need to route courses so that lengthening courses would not put an unnecessary on walking.  Our East Course has lengthened several holes in the past few years, and the only places where new tees create long walks are where RTJ or the Fazios monkeyed around with the routing.  There are a few Golden Age courses that have decent walks between greens and tees (Highlands Links is one that gets mentioned here often), but they are rare enough that they are acceptable and even enjoyable.

I also understand that modern sites are not always ideal.  Sometimes, though, I wonder why developers chose to build on such sites that are poorly suited for golf.  Just like you wouldn't build a football field on the side of a hill, it doesn't make sense to build golf courses in on terrain made up of rock and swamps.  Architecture is a tough business, so the architect doesn't always have much of a say in the land and has to accept less-than-ideal projects.  However, that doesn't mean that (a) they can't find a routing to incorporate walking and (b) these courses are exempt from criticism.  If less cart usage meant fewer courses are built on bad sites, then that is a major positive in my mind.

[George Pazin]

George Pazin,

Please don't let a few caddies who felt they had to act like serfs discourage you from taking caddies! You have always impressed me with your posts and obvious love for the game. You're the last person that caddie golf would want to have avoid the experience. Any solid, veteran caddie should have you at ease by the second hole. If you have a younger caddie, help them along and remember how much you enjoy the game...they're just starting to get a taste.

I'm constantly dismayed at the very mixed appraisals of the caddie dynamic from those on this site and elsewhere. It is clearly the inconsistent, and often poor effort that damages what should be quite a rewarding experience. There is much work to do to in improving this unfortunate situation within the game and I'm determined to join with others to improve caddie golf.

Cheers,
Kris

Thanks for your thoughts and kind words. Understand that I know it's my own problem - I'm really really bad at asking anyone for help, or taking help from anyone - so it's probably more in my head than anything else. Still, I think when someone takes a rake out of my hand, I start to feel almost embarrassed. It also makes me wonder if someone saw me raking, would they report the caddy? Weird stuff. I do whatever my host wants to do, I just feel more at ease walking and carrying.

And for whoever asked about 14 clubs, I almost never carry more than 10, even if I'm riding or utilizing a caddy. No real reason other than when you're a mediocre golfer, you understand it's the Indian, not the arrow. My most recent round I had 9 clubs in the bag, hopefully my caddy appreciated it!

It's not just the clicking of the clubs, it's the resounding thud from all of the walk & carry crowd patting themselves on the back!  Praise indeed.

Boy are there a lot of loaded assumptions in this statement. I don't think anything one way or the other about people walking or riding, I just prefer walking, greatly. To quote Bill Coore in a different context, it just feels like golf. And I do generally drape my towel over my irons to minimize any clacking, more so for others than myself; as I said, I enjoy most of the smells and sounds associated with golf, as well as the sights.

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

How many rounds of golf would you estimate you have played in the last 5 years?  Golf out in the field has changed more than I think you could imagine.

[George Pazin]

George,

How many rounds of golf would you estimate you have played in the last 5 years?  Golf out in the field has changed more than I think you could imagine.

I would say I've averaged about 5 rounds a year for the last 5 years, though the last two have been particularly brutal, I think I've only played twice in the last 2+ years.

How would you say it's changed?

[John Kavanaugh]

George,

How many rounds of golf would you estimate you have played in the last 5 years?  Golf out in the field has changed more than I think you could imagine.

I would say I've averaged about 5 rounds a year for the last 5 years, though the last two have been particularly brutal, I think I've only played twice in the last 2+ years.

How would you say it's changed?

The change in golf is subtle, kind of like comparing a night out at Red Lobster.  The food is the same but its just a bit louder, people complain more and you will be lucky not to get a ding in your car if you are not careful where you park.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

Wow! some interesting input.

I am a a bit surprised at some of the comments suggesting walkers are a bunch of pretentious, parsimonious popinjays.

One point though... If the majority if the membership walks and either carries or pulls then that method of traversing the golf course becomes the norm. It is very hard to feel smug and above it all when that is what most everyone is doing. It is just the culture of your club.

The greater point that my experience implies is that when you have been raised a walker the transition to a cart throws things out of whack and the enjoyment of a round is diminished significantly.

We have members who ride and I assure you that no one raises a eyebrow or questions their manhood.

Also I use my right hand to mute the clacking of my clubs as a consideration to others on the golf course, especially when they are addressing a shot. It just comes second nature as a normal part of golf etiquette after having spent most of my golf years walking. Also, I carry 14 clubs.

[Malcolm Mckinnon]

One more point...

Location plays a role. If my club were located in Central, Ga the walkers would thin out pretty quick during the high summer months. I walked 18 at Cuscowilla on Lake Oconee this past July and even though starting off at 8:00 AM I was staggering in on the 18th.

I'm not as young as I used to be and midday temps were middle 90's.

[Steve Lang]

per my reply #36 and some tangential thoughts noted after on this thread.. 

KEY CHANGE, with apologies to Mel M

it looks like some feel they should declare how many clubs they carry..  the implied "non-wimp" factor, but alas, like wearing some colors, aren't you boys man enough to play the game without the crutch of the max allowed 14 clubs?  can't make the shots between clubs??  what kind of players are you?

I'm with you George P, except i play a bit more often

[Colin Macqueen]

Steve,
I think people are responding to my genuine enquiry regarding how many clubs they carried when they toted their bag and sticks around a golf course. I just felt if I did that rather than drag my clubs by hand in a “buggy” I would be halving the number of clubs in my bag and thus have to “play the game without the crutch of the max allowed 14 clubs” which would be no bad thing.

Cheers Colin

[John Kavanaugh]

The thing I don't like about carrying 9 clubs is that it just gives me another excuse for being a lousy golfer.

[Mac Plumart]

John...

I'm calling you out!!  I challenge you to walk 9 or 18 holes at least once a week.  I think it will do you good health wise, improve your game (if you only carry 9 clubs, you'll have to become a better shot maker), and you may end up liking it better.  And I don't want to hear any garbage excuses of why you can't.  If I can do it...you can!

I've listened to some of your "call outs" and thought about them and they make some sense...heck, I even had Buffalo Trace whiskey this last weekend.  Your "pay to play" motto for 2011 makes sense to me as well...and I am on-board.

It is your turn to step up!  Walk.

[John Kavanaugh]

Mac,

I plan on walking more but if I do it will be with 14 clubs. If I post scores using 9 clubs and then compete against my friends using 14 I would be cheating.  If I only use 9 clubs competing I would be cheating my partner. I have nothing against walking I only refuse to become a cheater to do it.  

[JNC Lyon]

Mac,

I plan on walking more but if I do it will be with 14 clubs. If I post scores using 9 clubs and then compete against my friends using 14 I would be cheating.  If I only use 9 clubs competing I would be cheating my partner. I have nothing against walking I only refuse to become a cheater to do it.  

There's a chance you'll play better golf with fewer clubs.  Ted Ray used four clubs in his heyday.

[George Pazin]

  Never thought I'd see the day when carrying 9 clubs was considered cheating.

[John Kavanaugh]

Never thought I'd see the day when carrying 9 clubs was considered cheating.

George,

I think even you would agree that if you establish a handicap with 9 clubs and then go to a member/guest and use 14 clubs you are cheating.  My friends and I play all day for a days pay.  We trust each other to the extreme not to bend the rules by posting scores under false pretenses.

I hate the handicap system but love gambling while playing golf more.  The only way to make it work is to post scores under consistent conditions of play.  I could play every round where I am not gambling from the 7300 yd tees and my handicap would double.  I guess, according to you, that is not cheating either.

[Doug Ralston]

I love, and play, as much mountain golf as possible. I think golf is better in three (3!) dimensions. More beautiful, exciting, and fun. That's just me.

I would never consider walking, let alone carrying my own clubs, on many of those courses. On some you would not either, if you value your heart.

I can walk on flatlander courses, and have no problem at all with those who do. I completely agree that walking on those courses goes faster and those who do it with dedication are also more prone to move along. And on some of those boring flat tracks, you might want to hurry to be elsewhere.

Not so on my loved mountain courses. I WANT to be there. So a five hour round is a day in the mountains ......... it's all good!

Doug

[John Kavanaugh]

John...

I'm calling you out!!  I challenge you to walk 9 or 18 holes at least once a week.  I think it will do you good health wise, improve your game (if you only carry 9 clubs, you'll have to become a better shot maker), and you may end up liking it better.  And I don't want to hear any garbage excuses of why you can't.  If I can do it...you can!

I've listened to some of your "call outs" and thought about them and they make some sense...heck, I even had Buffalo Trace whiskey this last weekend.  Your "pay to play" motto for 2011 makes sense to me as well...and I am on-board.

It is your turn to step up!  Walk.

Mac,

I pledge to walk a minimum of 10 rounds before I see you out west this summer or will let you take and post a pic of me shirtless hitting a full driver.  The various positions and vibrations of body fat at contact should be an award winning photo in both the scientific and golf communities.  A nine hole round does constitute a full round at a nine hole course, however I may only count one 9 hole round per day.  Also, this is walk and carry on my shoulder.  Hell, 10 rounds is a year of golf for most of these guys and I don't want that picture on the web.  I will keep you informed as each round progresses.

[George Pazin]

George,

I think even you would agree that if you establish a handicap with 9 clubs and then go to a member/guest and use 14 clubs you are cheating.  My friends and I play all day for a days pay.  We trust each other to the extreme not to bend the rules by posting scores under false pretenses.

I hate the handicap system but love gambling while playing golf more.  The only way to make it work is to post scores under consistent conditions of play.  I could play every round where I am not gambling from the 7300 yd tees and my handicap would double.  I guess, according to you, that is not cheating either.

I agree with your conditions, just sounded funny to call someone carrying 9 clubs a cheater. I only wish I played well enough to be able to enjoy gambling while playing.

Have you considered that the last 5 years, maybe it wasn't golf that changed, but you...

[Melvyn Morrow]

Mac

I fear that we will need to see a miracle happening before we see John waking a golf course. The one that for some reason springs to mind is the following but with the caption “ I am not going to lose another F@#k!*g Ball to these Island Greens” or  “So Tom Doak built a cart track under water to hide it from view, now where the heck did he put it”.



Big Bad John, the secret to good golf is via the mind which needs walking to maintain a good oxygen level  to do its job properly. Ride and be as breathless as your mind, your choice.

Melvyn

PS That guy in the picture looks like John or is it Tom Doak, looking for ‘Land fit for Purpose’.

[Carl Johnson]

For the record.  My home course, Carolina GC (Charlotte) is hilly but very walkable, and we have lots of walkers.  At age 69, I'll use a push cart and take 14 clubs, or a "Sunday bag" to carry and take 7 to 10 clubs.  It all depends on how my back is feeling that day.  Why walk?  For me it just feels right, good exercise, and it helps counteract my natural tendency to be way too quick.  Yesterday I walked 18 with my push cart, playing with two other members, 67 and 69, both of whom carried, although I do not think the 69-year-old carries 14 clubs.  Today I walked the front nine with the same guys before I had to leave for an appointment, and they continued for the full 18.  I'll ride in a cart if it's part of an event, or is a practical necessity, like on a residential course.  I will also ride in the summer when playing in the middle of the day with extremely high heat and humidity.  Frankly, I don't care what others do, or what others think about what I do (walk vs. ride).

[Mac Plumart]

Good deal John.  I sure as heck hope you walk ten rounds.  I don't want to see the shirtless full driver swing!!!   

[JC Jones]

I don't belong to a private club.  I'm not a part of a walking culture.  My Mackenzie golf bag rides better on a cart than my ping hoofer did. 

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