[Duncan Cheslett]

Sean, I was told - quite some years ago now - that the 18th used to be terraced or stepped. I have seen nothing in print to confirm or deny that suggestion. I presume they meant the 18th as we know it, or perhaps the 17th on Mac's proposed routing with a short 18th up to a ledge or hanging green?

Mark,

I got chatting with Alan Tune, well known local left-hander, at Adlington range a few months ago. He told me that he played the 18th at Reddish Vale when it had a terrace or step half way up the hill.  Given that he's now in his early eighties this could have been as long ago as the late 50s or early 60's.

This ties in with what Andrew Myers, professional at the Vale, told me the other day about major works taking place at the course in around 1960.

Incidentally, Andrew has a great interest in the history of the club and admits to having spent hours pouring over old minute books just for the hell of it!

Another thing he told me was that the club came close to selling out to developers in the 1950s...

Duncan

[Duncan Cheslett]

Mark

I too have wondered the same thing.  Its hard to believe any pro archie would design the 18th.  Still, it begs the question of why Dr Mac didn't use the peninsula.  It would also be interesting to know what he thought of the hole.  Mind you, to get the full effect of the peninsula the green must go where it is.  That leaves the question of where the next tee would go.

Ciao

My theory is that Dr Mac did use the penisular but only partly. I think that the 16th green used to be close to the seventeenth tee as in the plan posted earlier. Perhaps he didn't use the the full length of the peninsular for the very reason that it would involve a long walk to the next tee, something he hated...


...it doesn't explain why he didn't shoot the 17th over the river by the current 16th green, though. What a scary drive that would be!

[Neil_Crafter]

Mark, Duncan and Sean
I have been away for a few days and have been interested to read this thread. I am copying below what we have in our Dr Mac Courses spreadsheet. As you will read we have Guardian reports indicating clearly Mackenzie's involvement in the design of the course and visiting the site. If there is interest I can post the articles themselves. If I recall Mark Bourgeois found these articles.
cheers Neil

REDDISH VALE GC
DSH lists as new course from 1912, as does Hawtree and C&W. AM commenced work in 1910 and course opened in 1912 (letter from club). Listed in 1923 AM advertisement. The Guardian of 22 April 1913 indicated that thirteen holes of Dr. Mackenzie's scheme were in play and the balance were complete, with the full eighteen holes opened in July 1913. Anthony Spalding in The Guardian, Monday 20 October 1913 indicates that Mackenzie visited the Reddish Vale site on Monday, 13 October 1913: "He visited the course on Monday last to inspect the work already carried out and to confer with the members of the club in regard to that still remaining to be done." “Unfortunately, some of the work at Reddish Vale is not…what Dr. Mackenzie intended, and during…winter alterations will take place, care being…that his ideas are faithfully reproduced in the other new work.” (nb “…” signifies unclear sections of text) “Four of the holes have yet to be made”, with the 4th, 9th, 2nd holes mentioned as planned for alterations.

The Guardian reported again on Mackenzie's work at Reddish Vale on 29 October 1913, "Dr. Mackenzie, of Leeds, the architect of the course, had recently played over it to inspect the work carried on under his advice, and as a result of this visit had strongly advised the full completion of the course being carried out forthwith."  Spalding reported on 3 November 1913 that the Green Committe had accepted Mackenzie's recommendations for altering the work and describes in details characteristics of Mackenzie's design. Darwin (1925) wrote that, "Reddish Vale, which is hillier than most of the Manchester courses, is one of Dr. Mackenzie's". Club website quotes from Mackenzie's report: "I was very much impressed with the possibilities of the ground available for the Reddish Vale Golf Club. Taking into consideration the excellence of the turf and the natural surroundings, the course will be an exceptionally accessible one."

[Sean_A]

Thanks Neil, unfortunately these are quite vague reports.  It does seem from reading between the lines that Dr Mac was less than happy about the direction the design was taking. 

Duncan

Why do you spose Dr Mac would have done such a radical change in the design from the original stick plan, but still not use the peninsula fully?

Ciao 

[Duncan Cheslett]

If there is interest I can post the articles themselves.

I for one would be very interested to see them. Thank you Neil.

Duncan

Why do you spose Dr Mac would have done such a radical change in the design from the original stick plan, but still not use the peninsula fully?

The key to this is seeing MacKenzie's final plan or a layout of the course as it was in 1912/1913. Even a yardage card would be helpful. I will make enquiries at the club.

Do you have any of these, Neil?

[Neil_Crafter]

Duncan
I have nothing that has come from the club, just the Guardian articles. I have attached these below. So no original Mac plan to my knowledge.

I think Mackenzie, early on in his career, recognised the value of the press to him and cultivated friendships with the various golf writers. Anthony Spalding of the Guardian is one who wrote quite often about Mackenzie and his work. And Darwin and Mackenzie were I believe quite good friends.

Sean, no these are not really detailed accounts of Mac's work at RV but they are better than nothing. At some other courses Spalding's articles are more detailed as to the layout of the courses. Certainly it would appear that Mac was not all that happy with how the work was going at RV.

Also, I don't think its fair to suggest that Mackenzie was "stuck up north". He certainly managed to get under Colt's skin I think by getting work in the south, and five or so courses in the London area would attest to that, not to mention remodelling at the likes of Littlestone.

Tom, while he perhaps did not have the same level of control over his projects in the UK as he was later to achieve in America, Mackenzie did to some extent by having the BGCCCo build many of his UK courses, as you know. As a director of this company he benefited financially from their construction, but was also able to have a construction team that knew (in most cases!) what he was after, which must have helped. But in cases like RV from 1913, this was well before the times of CA Mackenzie and later the BGCCCo building his designs. And in this time - Mackenzie was very busy in 1913 - many clubs I believe felt they could handle the work themselves.

Some of these are not easily readable on screen, and you might have to open them separately in a photo program and enlarge. One is also light on text down the left side which makes reading difficult.

The Guardian, April 22, 1913


The Guardian, October 20, 1913



The Guardian October 29, 1913


The Guardian, November 3, 1913

[Tony_Muldoon]

Very interesting guys. Duncan could you ask the Pro if he noted in the minutes which co did the constrution- the info might notbe there?

[Neil_Crafter]

Tony
Back in 1913 there were not many specialist firms building courses. I suspect that RV was built by the club with perhaps a greenkeeper supervising and with hired in labour. I have no info to back that up, its just a hunch. There was certainly no mention in the articles about how the course was built. Perhaps the club has something on this, would be interesting to know.

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