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Duncan Cheslett

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At Reddish Vale we are very proud of being custodians of an original early MacKenzie course - opened in 1912.  There have apparently been very few changes since then and the course remains a stern test of even the best golfers to this day - even at only slightly over 6000 yards.

http://www.rvgc.co.uk/index.html

The 'Jewel in the Crown' is the sixteenth; a 320 yd par 4 onto a peninsular formed by the meandering river with the green right at the tip with water on 3 sides.



The view from the tee shows the difficulty of the gamble facing players. The green is above the little 'island' in the river with the flag barely visible. The more of the dog-leg you attempt to cut the smaller the landing area available...



Even if get it right and are faced with an 80 yard pitch to the green your troubles are far from over. The slightest deviation from the right line lands you in the river. In fact, as many people end up in the river with their second shot as with their drive. In many cases with both!  The 'safe' shot off the tee just magnifies the difficulty of the approach.



The late great Henry Cotton was an enthusiast of this particular hole.  It is now named after him. He wrote about it at length in 1940







And there you have the irony - arguably the best hole on a MacKenzie course is not a MacKenzie hole!

The inference from Henry Cotton's piece is that it was the work of James Braid, but this is not specifically stated.

All I know is that it is a pleasure and a privilege to do battle with such an awesome and beautifully thought out hole on a regular basis - whoever dreamt it up.  The bend in the river was there when Dr Mac did his work - he must be kicking himself now that he didn't spot the potential!

Any other examples of a well known architect missing an obvious opportunity, only for his omission to be amended years later?



 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:27:06 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

David_Tepper

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #1 on: January 16, 2011, 01:54:37 PM »
Duncan -

Is there any evidence available regarding what the 16th hole used to look like and where the green & tee were located?

One more question - where does one exit the 16th green and find the 17th tee?

DT

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2011, 02:45:33 PM »
Good questions, David.

I have not seen a plan of the course as it was in 1912, but I am told that one exists at the club. No-one I have spoken to has seen it, though!  I have also been told anecdotally that the old 16th was a par 3 onto the peninsula.

Cotton's testimony that the old 16th was a 230 yd hole supports this and leads me to believe that it was something like this;



The seventeenth is also marked on the map. This by all accounts is an original MacKenzie hole despite the cross-over with the sixteenth. The only downside of the new green position is the long walk back to the 17th tee. If I am right about the original position of the 16th green then this walk would have been minimal, and more in keeping with Dr Mac's outlook. This area is now heavily wooded, but if you look at the 1940 photo it was completely clear.

I intend having a look round there soon to see if there is any evidence on the ground of an old green or bunkers.

Scott Warren

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #3 on: January 16, 2011, 02:53:56 PM »
Duncan,

At NSWGC - another laid out initially by MacKenzie - the most talked about holes 5, 6 and 14 were the creation of Aussie architect Eric Apperley about 8-10 years after MacKenzie's visit.

I have spoken with several members who've lauded that "you can really see MacKenzie's style in hole X", a hole he had no involvement in designing!

Mark_Rowlinson

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #4 on: January 16, 2011, 02:54:58 PM »
Duncan,

I think if you want a hole to fit your title you have also to address the present 10th. I was told by the Captain and Secretary, as we played the hole some years ago, that this was the very first 'MacKenzie green.' It may be, but possibly it was not the original green on this hole. In which case, when was it constructed?

And what about the current 13th?

You'll have to get burrowing away in those archives.....

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #5 on: January 16, 2011, 03:42:17 PM »

You'll have to get burrowing away in those archives.....

I'm working on it, Mark!  

What makes you wonder particularly about the 10th and 13th? The position of both greens seems to me to be dictated by the topography of the land. In fact, this could be said of all of the greens on that section of the course - say from the 7th to the 13th.

It is interesting to look at a map of the property dating from 1907, three years or so before MacKenzie's first (only?) visit. Notice the almost total lack of trees along the now disused railway line. It is now heavily forested, along with much of the course and general surroundings.



This is what MacKenzie would have been faced with. My suspicion is that he would initially identify natural green sites and obvious tee positions and then develop a routing linking them together.

As you know, his first provisional design was this;



Many of the components of today's course are already there, but there are several major differences.  What I don't know yet, but hope to discover, is whether MacKenzie's final design was closer to today's course.  I suspect however, given the speed that he appears to have worked at, that his involvement more or less ended with this outline design. A quick couple of days placing greens, tees, and bunkers before shooting off to his next project leaving everything in the hands of the local ditch diggers seems to have been his modus operandus, certainly at this point in his career.

As you say, I need to get delving in those dusty old files and minute books!
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 03:50:30 PM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #6 on: January 16, 2011, 05:53:00 PM »
If Dr Mac originally had the 16th as a par 3 onto the peninsula, it begs the question as to why the 17th hole didn't play over the river and leg left up halfway or so up the hill - sort of a 4.5 par?  Which would leave a longish uphill par 3 finisher.  Perhaps he didn't fancy two long par 3s in the final three holes, but it eliminates what has to be one of the worst holes on a famous archie's course.  Personally, I don't think the peninsula would have been fit for a hole as I bet (and I bet it gets quite wet these days) it was a very wet area.  I also thought why not play the extent of the peninsula then play a short par 3 over the river as #17?  It still leaves the terrible 18th, but does save a long walk and use a great piece of the property in the peninsula and the river.   Mind you, the current 17th is a good hole.  

I think the best holes are 8, 9, 13 and 15, though 17 is quite good as well.  

Duncan

Am I to understand you think Dr Mac was only involved so far as the basic outline shown above?  

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 16, 2011, 06:04:08 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #7 on: January 17, 2011, 02:11:55 AM »
If Dr Mac originally had the 16th as a par 3 onto the peninsula, it begs the question as to why the 17th hole didn't play over the river and leg left up halfway or so up the hill - sort of a 4.5 par?  Which would leave a longish uphill par 3 finisher.  Perhaps he didn't fancy two long par 3s in the final three holes, but it eliminates what has to be one of the worst holes on a famous archie's course.  Personally, I don't think the peninsula would have been fit for a hole as I bet (and I bet it gets quite wet these days) it was a very wet area.  I also thought why not play the extent of the peninsula then play a short par 3 over the river as #17?  It still leaves the terrible 18th, but does save a long walk and use a great piece of the property in the peninsula and the river.   Mind you, the current 17th is a good hole.  

MacKenzie's reluctance to use the river as a hazard on the course puzzles me. The only hole where it comes directly into play is the 16th - and we now know that not to be his work at all. A site with such a river meandering through it would surely invite most course designers to have at least a couple of holes playing over it - including I suspect, the Dr Mac of twenty years later. I guess he was still cutting his teeth and maybe developing his confidence; although lack of self belief does not appear to have been one of the good doctor's faults!

The ground conditions would not have been a serious problem; the course is built on a bed of sand and water drains into the river very quickly. Following the heavy snow we had recently I played the course on the first day it re-opened and the thaw had left a few patches of surface water here and there. The following day however, all the water had drained away leaving the turf dry and we were back on summer greens - including the 16th!

I know your opinion of the 18th. Walking up the hill is certainly a grind at the end of a round, but the hole does present a unique golfing challenge. There is one particular spot at the bottom right of the hill where a 7 or 8 iron off flat ground will flip the ball right up onto the green, helped by a convenient bank to the rear left of the putting surface. Finding that spot (known as 'pro's corner') from the tee is the key to playing the hole.

Ultimately, the hill is there and the clubhouse is at the top of it. Somehow the course has to get back up there from down in the valley. The current hole is as good a way of doing it as any I can see. I don't agree that it is a 'bad' hole - just different. It is certainly much talked about, gets the club attention, and presumably helps attract visitors (and income) wanting to know what all the fuss is about! Play it twice a week Sean, and you'd soon come to love it!

I think the best holes are 8, 9, 13 and 15, though 17 is quite good as well.  

Most peoples' favourites are 14 and 16. Whatever, there is little doubt that the finishing holes are of a very high quality indeed. The rest of the course is pretty good too, IMO!

Duncan

Am I to understand you think Dr Mac was only involved so far as the basic outline shown above?  


I hope to find out. I am learning that the only thing you can trust is documentary evidence, and that basic outline is the only documentary evidence I have so far seen of MacKenzie's involvement in the course design. I have seen it asserted that MacKenzie returned after initial construction and insisted on modifications to the work done, but until I see hard evidence of this I must treat it as anecdotal.

I would love it if there was in the club archives a detailed plan of the course at opening in MacKenzie's own hand, closely matching today's layout. The lack of a framed copy of such a plan hanging on the clubhouse wall leads me to suspect however, that a search for it may prove fruitless.

I sincerely hope that my position of studied scepticism is misplaced.

 
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 02:54:51 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #8 on: January 17, 2011, 03:16:05 AM »
Duncan

I can just imagine a cracking par 3 from the current 16th green over the water to a sidehill green and then another par 3 finisher.  Not ideal for sure, but imo better than tackling that hill in one go and there is the added benefit of not havong to walk back nearly the length of the 16th to the 17th tee.  This is a serious routing problem that I am sure Dr Mac would never have condoned.  If not due to wetness, why do you think Dr Mac avoided the peninsula? It seems a strange thing to do.  At the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me if Dr Mac is 100% or 75% responsible for Reddish Vale.  Its a good course and one worth seeing if in the area.   

I recall Mark mentioning that the 10th used to be routed higher up the hill on the left and that an issue with railroad tracks (subsidence?) necessitated the hole taking its current form. Is this true?  On the stick routing it looks like the plan ws for the hole to follow what is there now.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #9 on: January 17, 2011, 04:15:43 AM »
Duncan

I can just imagine a cracking par 3 from the current 16th green over the water to a sidehill green and then another par 3 finisher.  Not ideal for sure, but imo better than tackling that hill in one go and there is the added benefit of not havong to walk back nearly the length of the 16th to the 17th tee.  This is a serious routing problem that I am sure Dr Mac would never have condoned.  If not due to wetness, why do you think Dr Mac avoided the peninsula? It seems a strange thing to do.  At the end of the day it doesn't really matter to me if Dr Mac is 100% or 75% responsible for Reddish Vale.  Its a good course and one worth seeing if in the area.  

I agree that a good par 3 could be fashioned from the peninsular over the river and up the hill. This however, would eliminate the good existing 17th and lead to far too many par 3's on the course. My idea of the original location of the 16th green (see above) explains the walk to the 17th tee. I glean from Cotton's article the sense that the 'new' 16th was built as an experiment and existed for a time at least alongside the original hole. Once it had become accepted the old hole was obliterated. My green position for the old 16th in the new stand of trees ties in with this hypothosis.

 
I recall Mark mentioning that the 10th used to be routed higher up the hill on the left and that an issue with rail road tracks (subsidence?) necessitated the hole taking its current form. Is this true?  On the stick routing it looks like the plan was for the hole to follow what is there now.

I'm not too sure what Mark was getting at there. If we look at Google Earth we see that the current 10th abuts the now disused railway for its full length. There is no higher land to the left.




On closer examination however, I see that Mark has a good point re the 10th green. On the stick routing the 9th (now the 10th) plays from the current tee to a green approximately where the 11th tee now is - 100 yards further on from the site of the current green; the 'original' MacKenzie green.

We really need to see what the final design was and how it differed from the proposed plan.

« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 04:22:30 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Re: Classic hole on early MacKenzie course not all it seems...
« Reply #10 on: January 17, 2011, 04:29:26 AM »
Duncan

I am not sure what too many par 3s is.  Addington has six and many people think it is one of the top inland courses in England.  Same for Berkshire Red. 

My reading of the stick routing puts the original (now the 10th) green right where it is today with the 11th turning back (then the 10th - I belive a teeing area just around the trees from the current 10th green is still there).  Now we walk way back for the 11th, but Dr Mac shows a par 3 (which doesn't exist, but was the 13th) playing back to what is probably the green site used for the 13th today.

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:00:12 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark_Rowlinson

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Sean, I don't think I will have said that the 10th was further up the hill, but there was a landslip some time in the early 1990s which closed the hole for some time. In Mac's proposed plan what is now the 10th was a par 5 playing to a green presumably close to today's 11th tees. Maybe Duncan would have a look in the trees to the left to see if there are any vestiges of that green. But, if the suggestion that today's 10th green is the first 'MacKenzie green' is correct then MacKenzie must have returned. There is at the club a letter from MacKenzie from his Leeds address to the club dated Nov 30th 1924 in which he states that he will visit the club on Thursday December 11th. 'Please, let me have a plan of your existing course on my arrival.' Whether this was the occasion of course modifications, or some earlier occasion, I have no knowledge. Note also in Mac's proposed plan that what is now the 13th was two separate holes, which would make more sense of that extraordinary green location. Today's 2nd didn't exist and today's 3rd was much shorter. And today's 18th was actually two holes. There is a photo in existence of the new 6th tee (in the 21st anniversary booklet) which is the same as today's 6th tee, implying that an extra hole had been inserted earlier in the round (today's 2nd?) by this time. You will see from the proposed plan that the then 5th tee was much further back and must have required a daring drive across the shoulder of the hill. The photo of the new 6th tee reveals that there were far fewer trees on the hill to the left and the river is clearly visible.

Duncan Cheslett

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If we compare the stick routing to the Google Earth photo we see that the 10th (9th) green is not where it is today. I have marked the current position in green and the stick routing position in blue. I have determined this in relation to the bend in the river.This is not simply a drawing error of the time because the hole is clearly marked as being 520 yds - some 180 yds further than the 10th is today.




The stick routing's 10th is basically the current 11th, the stick routing's 11th the current 12th, and the stick routing's 12th the current 13th, albeit extended to the current and proposed 13th green, cutting out the par 3 you refer to.


Re; no of par 3's on a course.

Your suggestion would have resulted in 7 par 3's. One or two too many, surely?

 

Sean_A

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Mark

I must have misunderstood you concerning the 10th.  Thats a good thing because I didn't quite understand how the fairway ran further up the hill if the tracks were already there.  I see now the current 10th was meant to be a par 5.  I misread the "5" for "3".  

Why do you spose the course was changed so much from the proposal?  Other than the obvious problem of #5 banging right into the fairway of #17 on the proposed course, the Dr Mac's version seems like it was a better fit for the land and walk.  The letter you quoted is quite interesting because it seems that Dr Mac knew the club made serious alterations to the plan, but that he didn't know what they were.  That suggests he wasn't involved in the changes.  Of course, we don't actually know what Dr Mac actually built!  That stick plan doesn't look like anything Dr Mac would pass over as final plan (for himself let alone the club) as its far too vague.  

Duncan

Yes, I misread the stick plan concerning the 9th (the current 10th).   

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:38:30 AM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Duncan Cheslett

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 Of course, we don't actually know what Dr Mac actually built!  That stick plan doesn't look like anything Dr Mac would pass over as final plan (for himself let alone the club) as its far too vague.  

This the nub of the issue.  What was Mac's actual involvement?  Was he commissioned to do a full design and oversee construction, or was he paid a consultation fee for a quick visit to confirm that the site was suitable and to suggest a few green and tee positions?

The hard evidence we currently actually have tends to suggest the latter. I am still puzzled that in his lengthy article proclaiming the delights of Reddish Vale Henry Cotton makes no mention whatsoever of Alister MacKenzie. This only a few years after the opening of Augusta and Cypress Point and Dr Mac's fairly recent death. Cotton as a top professional at the height of his powers must surely have been aware of the man...

« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 05:59:23 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Duncan Cheslett

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Sean, I don't think I will have said that the 10th was further up the hill, but there was a landslip some time in the early 1990s which closed the hole for some time. In Mac's proposed plan what is now the 10th was a par 5 playing to a green presumably close to today's 11th tees. Maybe Duncan would have a look in the trees to the left to see if there are any vestiges of that green. But, if the suggestion that today's 10th green is the first 'MacKenzie green' is correct then MacKenzie must have returned. There is at the club a letter from MacKenzie from his Leeds address to the club dated Nov 30th 1924 in which he states that he will visit the club on Thursday December 11th. 'Please, let me have a plan of your existing course on my arrival.' Whether this was the occasion of course modifications, or some earlier occasion, I have no knowledge.

Mark,

Last year you wrote;

Reddish Vale is a very early MacKenzie course, only his third brand new complete 18-hole course after Alwoodley and Moortown. (For the record he had also by this time made alterations to Leeds GC and Harrogate and added nine new holes at Doncaster.) This was also MacKenzie’s first essay outside Yorkshire, with seven holes and the clubhouse lying in Lancashire and eleven holes in Cheshire.

Work began in 1910 and thirteen holes were ready for the opening in 1912. The remaining holes had been completed by July 1913, but when MacKenzie visited the course in October of that year he found that some holes had not been constructed as he had intended and alterations had to be made during the following winter.

It would be helpful if you could share with me the source of the above information.


Tom_Doak

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Duncan:

At that stage of his career, it was pretty common for Dr. MacKenzie to only be paid by clubs for a couple of days of his time to suggest modifications; and then it was up to the club to decide what they wanted to make of those suggestions, and carry out the work.  I suspect this was common for most other architects of the period as well, that there was no tradition of clubs paying larger "design fees" to oversee the work until the early to mid-1920's. 

MacKenzie was never able to get over that hump while he stayed in England, really -- nor, for that matter, on any of the work he did in Australia.  It was only in America [and, later South America] where he was given control of the projects.

Scott Warren

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Tom,

I may be wrong, but logic makes me wonder if Alwoodley and maybe also Moortown might have been exceptions to that rule given they were in his home town and (at least in the case of Alwoodley) were designed before he started travelling as a designer?

Duncan Cheslett

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Thank you Tom.

That tends to confirm my growing suspicion that MacKenzie's actual involvement (and that of his contemporaries) in the architecture of many of the courses he is now credited with 'designing' was, by today's standards, minimal.

This is not a criticism of early architects or of the clubs; it is clearly simply how things worked at the time. The plethora of new golf clubs in England in the early years of the last century had little money - they were hardly likely to throw bundles of it at an architect when every member of the committee no doubt thought that he could do a better job himself anyway! How difficult can it be to design a golf course?  

Remember, MacKenzie started out as just such a member of just such a committee...

As you suggest, it was only when he started working in the USA that a real value was placed on his services.

To be controversial; should we continue to describe every design for which these guys drew a rough sketch on the back of an envelope a 'MacKenzie' or a 'Fowler' course etc?
« Last Edit: January 17, 2011, 07:26:59 AM by Duncan Cheslett »

Sean_A

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Duncan

You may take the concept too far.  Perhaps Dr Mac is an exception.  I don't think many would accuse Colt of merely providing a rough plan then buggering off.  I think part of Dr Mac's problem is he was virtually stuck up north as the south was Colt country with many other major projects going to it seems anybody but Dr Mac.  Also, Dr Mac caused some of his problem by signing on wiith Colt.  Perhaps Colt believed in the old adage that one should keep his friends close, but his enemies closer.   

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark_Rowlinson

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Duncan,

The stuff about construction of the course comes from information gathered by the Alister MacKenzie Society. Neil Crafter, will, I am sure contribute to this thread, but I think he's away on holiday at the moment. .

I bet the information is all filed away with whoever is writing your centenary book. But they'll probably not want this information in the public domaine until the book is published - and we'll all be queueing up for copies!

Mark.

Duncan Cheslett

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I bet the information is all filed away with whoever is writing your centenary book. But they'll probably not want this information in the public domaine until the book is published - and we'll all be queueing up for copies!


Mark,

You may be right, but I have no idea who is writing the book or even if one is planned. I have offered my services to the Centenery committee to help with any research, but have not so far had a response.

I thought maybe you might have got the gig...

Mark_Rowlinson

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It has occurred to me that Braid's alterations to the 14th, re-routing the 15th and his completely new 16th may only have been part of something bigger that was never completed. Perhaps the War put an end to that. I just cannot understand how any architect of that time would leave players to walk back almost the complete length of the fairway, having putted out on the 16th green, in order to reach the 17th tee. Perhaps new and different 17th and 18th holes were planned in order to make for a less steep finish.

Braid had recently completed Mere (1935) so his stock was high. He had also designed the new 3rd at Stockport and had done some revisions to Bramall Park (also MacKenzie) because the members thought it too difficult!
« Last Edit: January 18, 2011, 10:39:57 AM by Mark_Rowlinson »

Sean_A

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Mark

I too have wondered the same thing.  Its hard to believe any pro archie would design the 18th.  Still, it begs the question of why Dr Mac didn't use the peninsula.  It would also be interesting to know what he thought of the hole.  Mind you, to get the full effect of the peninsula the green must go where it is.  That leaves the question of where the next tee would go.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Mark_Rowlinson

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Sean, I was told - quite some years ago now - that the 18th used to be terraced or stepped. I have seen nothing in print to confirm or deny that suggestion. I presume they meant the 18th as we know it, or perhaps the 17th on Mac's proposed routing with a short 18th up to a ledge or hanging green?

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