Why don't architects introduce

[Jud_T]

Wait a NY minute, Pat Mucci hasn't been to Bandon?!!!  Do we need to take up a collection?!

[Brian Marion]

JNC_Lyon,

I think you are absolutely correct in that many designers and many architect "buffs" like those on this site really love and "get" the concept of centerline bunkers but that centerline bunkers are almost universally despised by today's golfer.

I spend all day around golfers (the 99.8% who are "normal" ) and the notion of having a bunker "in the middle of the fairway" absolutely drives them nuts.  It is not a perspective unique to any type of golfer either--my scratch buddies despise those centerline hazards as much or more than others--again, they feel like if they bust a drive 290 down the "middle" they should have a perfect shot.

Also, and I think Pat and Mike or others touched on this, the relative "straightness" of the modern ball has made the art of shot making far less relavent.  I am not sure how much shotmaking was really a part of the game in the "good 'ole days" to begin with but to play well today you would be an idiot to try and shape shots when there is little need to do so.

The modern game is a fundamentally different game than what was played 30 years ago--that horse left the barn and is never coming back.

As summed up by Dr. Rotella who has spent a lifetime watching how the world's elite shoot low scores, here are the "secrets":

1.  Get the ball in play with ANY club that keeps you in play.  Tour players do not hit balls out of play--no crazy, wild shots.
2.  Iron play is over rated--no one (even Ben Hogan) makes birdies with 5 irons.
3.  From 130 and in, you must literally be thinking of making EVERYTHING.  Your short game is EVERYTHING.

While Doc would not emphasize bombing it off the tee, since birdies are made with wedge play and putting it makes sense that the more wedges you in your hand, the more birdies.  Not BOMB and GOUGE but pretty close.

Sorry for the tangent but players (customers) hate center line hazards, they don't appreciate the strategy or fairness and they pay the bills.  I think designers and nut cases like us (and me) love them but we are far out numbered.

Lastly,  I can tell you that even more than the severity of some greens the worst "argument/fight" any of Mike Riley's (my architect and the architect of numerous Atlanta courses) buddies and fellow members ever had with him or me was over his use of center bunkers!!!     

Chris, how many complaints do you get about rough being to high, bunkers too deep, pins to tough from the female members, yet get kudos from the younger players and low handicappers? (realizing you can do what you want of course)  ;-)

I can only imagine our ladies getting a steady diet of centerline bunkers like that 81 year old got!   Oh boy...

Centerline bunkers work for some clubs depending on the membership or typical player/market but they won't work everywhere for sure.

[Sean_A]

Centerline bunkers, this is my design....

Design, meet centeline bunkers.

There, I did it.

Seriously, like Mike Nuzzo and others, I put at least one CL hazard in.  Its certainly a viable idea that makes for variety, even if, as pointed out, it really creates a two fw hole, even if not mowed that way, and each side of the hazard needs at least 20-25 yards of fw.  Yes, available land and the problems of making each route desireable in some way figure in.

Why not more?  To be honest, the problem is that they challenge only one particular distance, whereas longer angled hazards can be arranged to work more or less the same for more players.

Jeff

I don't understand your reasoning here.  A centreline bunker challenges at least three length shots; play long, short or or wide - all potentially involving three different length carries.  I know that folks say the diagonal bunker offers limitless options of carry choice, but in effect, unless the angled bunker is HUGE (big enough to really offer more than three basic options), a centreline bunker isn't all that different strategically from a diagonal bunker.  Only the centreline bunker oftens works best to break up a fairly straight hole while the the angle is already incorporated by the tee or green on the diagonal bunker.

To me the big issue with centreline bunkers is maintaining the fairway width which needs to be probably in the neighbourhood of 50 yards depending on how big the bunker is.  However, on diagonal bunkering for the short play to be on offer often times fairway has to extend much closer to the tee than on ogther holes so the tradeoff isn't all that much different.

Ciao

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

There are more centerline bunkers and hazards out there in golf today and from modern architects who ply all kinds of different styles than at any time during the Golden Age or otherwise. The fact that you don't know this or don't or can't acknowledge it is frankly shocking!

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wait a NY minute, Pat Mucci hasn't been to Bandon?!!!  Do we need to take up a collection?!

I was in Bandon for four days in 2003, prior to Bandon Trails and Old Macdonald.

Unfortunately, I went directly to Las Vegas immediately thereafter and can't remember much about that ten day stretch.

Bill McBride,

I consider the bunker on # 5 at Friar's Head more of an offset bunker and not a centerline bunker.
There's far more room left of that bunker.

Jaeger,

I'd agree, the fairway has to be wide enough to accomodate the introduction of a centerline bunker, but, how hard can that be on one or two holes on a golf course ?

[Ronald Montesano]

chris and jnc,

Today's and forever's typical golfers want the reward of risk without the punishment.  My appreciation of the game changed when I began to accept the punishment without complaint.  In tournament play, I'll usually take the pro route and hit whatever club is needed to ensure a subsequent shot from the short hairs.  When playing with friends, it's caution to the wind and swinging from the heels, as golf is supposed to be fun from time to time.

The centerline bunker narrows the fairway from a perspective not commonly seen.  If it were the norm, no one would complain.  It's not, so folks complain.  As others point out, no one likes to be punished for hitting it straight.  Aiming at an angle off the centerline is beyond the ken of a weekend devotee.

[Brett_Morrissy]

Pat,
Can I ask you to give some more information in your thread titles PLEASE?

With the vast number of threads, new and current everyday, it is hard enough trying to view the threads that are of interest without having to go thru every single trying to find that one Patrick Mucci thread about the centerline bunkers, titled:
"why don't architects introduce"

...very frustrating.

[john_stiles]

Most or all of the centerlines at ANGC were eliminated through the years. 

Were they unfair, as some would say about the blind centerline at present no. 11,  or too penal for the 'members' ?   Bobby Jones' father did not like the centerline at no. 11.


Brett,

Don't eliminate half the fun of going through the first page. Insert smiley face.

[RSLivingston_III]

Who amongst the Golden Age designers refered to the short carry bunkers as "top-shot"? I believe they were only refered to as such during the gutty era, when a bunker might be placed to catch a topped or bladed shot and were mostly placed there to force players to hit a properly lofted shot. As I understand it the bunkers you are showing from the GA were placed there to give the lesser skilled a challenge. The "centerline" bunker would have been used to challenge the more skilled player.

[JR Potts]

Who amongst the Golden Age designers refered to the short carry bunkers as "top-shot"? I believe they were only refered to as such during the gutty era, when a bunker might be placed to catch a topped or bladed shot and were mostly placed there to force players to hit a properly lofted shot. As I understand it the bunkers you are showing from the GA were placed there to give the lesser skilled a challenge. The "centerline" bunker would have been used to challenge the more skilled player.

I kwow for sure Tom  Bendelow used to employ these "top-short" bunkers though I'm sure most of them have been removed from his courses over the years.

[Bill_McBride]

Wait a NY minute, Pat Mucci hasn't been to Bandon?!!!  Do we need to take up a collection?!

Bill McBride,

I consider the bunker on # 5 at Friar's Head more of an offset bunker and not a centerline bunker.
There's far more room left.

I just pulled up Friars Head on Google Maps ("Baiting Hollow NY," pan right).   The fairway bunker is dead center. The tee is off center right which might give one that impression.  It certainly plays as a center bunker, you can go either way if you lay up short of the other fairway bunker.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Can I ask you to give some more information in your thread titles PLEASE?

With the vast number of threads, new and current everyday, it is hard enough trying to view the threads that are of interest without having to go thru every single trying to find that one Patrick Mucci thread about the centerline bunkers, titled:
"why don't architects introduce"

...very frustrating.

Brett,

Feel free to title your threads any way you desire.

[paul cowley]

Patrick....I routinely use centerline bunkers as one of my baseline strategies where they fit...on almost all of my courses....but maybe you have yet to play any of these. Thats OK though.

[Sean_A]

What I find most perplexing is twofold.  First, if any course is acknowledged as the mother of all courses it is TOC.  Yet TOC is littered with centreline bunkers and one doesn't find this degree of employment anywhere else - I not archies talking about almost a token nod to centreline bunkers on a hole or two.  Second, we tend to find many more centreline bunkers guarding greens than we do fairways.  On both accounts, why is this the case?   

Ciao

[Cristian]

We used them at Royal Queensland at 3,6,11,16 and 18 - and If I heard 'I hit a perfect shot and it went intoi the bunker' once I heard it a thousand times. As Chris says golfers often hate them because their definition of a perfect shot is one hit well that goes straight -  rather than a shot that perfectly sets up what is to follow.

At the 18th at RQ a member complained about the small bunker in the middle of the fairway, 250 off the tee.
There is 30 yards of fairway right of it and 25 left of it.
He agreed that 30 yards was a reasonable width - so I suggested that if we grew all the left fairway as rough the bunker would no longer be in the middle but in the left rough - and therefore it would be ok.
To his credit he immediately saw the folly of his argument and said 'I have never thought of it like that!'

I think the reason many people do not like centre line bunkering is that most people have trouble enough finding 50% of fairways anyway (even pros hit only 70%-ish).

That's because most people are not scratch handicappers. As a mid handicapper myself (11), I can relate to this.

Yet I love centre line bunkers if they make you choose between either going left or right OR laying up (The higher the handicap, or rather the bigger the variance from the target line on a players' drives, the more a centerline bunker works as a cross hazard I think).

Often the choice is too obvious (left or right) and the centre line bunker is just an obstacle that narrows the target zone, or works as a cross hazard for all but the very straightest of drivers. If there is enough width as in your example, combined with the option to lay up, the centre line bunker works for all levels of players I think.

Centre line bunkers seem to work especially well on par 5's IMHO. Where a riskier drive can than set up a chance to get home in two, or an easy second. Alternatively a 'safe' drive can result in a riskier second. I like this concept.

Brett:

If you move your cursor over the thread title, one can read the first sentence of the text in the initial post. That usually reveals the Thread content, if it is not in the title.

[Patrick_Mucci]

What I find most perplexing is twofold. 
First, if any course is acknowledged as the mother of all courses it is TOC. 
Yet TOC is littered with centreline bunkers and one doesn't find this degree of employment anywhere else -

Sean,

I think that's an excellent point.

Everyone seems to accept, if not embrace the bunkering at TOC, yet, there seems to be far more resistance to introducing them in the U.S.

Donald Ross's advice that no bunker is misplaced, would seem to be an endorsement of their introduction, yet, he rarely incorporated them in his designs.

Fairway width and the trend toward narrowing of fairways over the last 50 or 60 years certainly has had a negative impact.

I not archies talking about almost a token nod to centreline bunkers on a hole or two.  Second, we tend to find many more centreline bunkers guarding greens than we do fairways.  On both accounts, why is this the case?   [color-green]

A centerline bunker guarding a green would seem to discourage the ground game in favor of the aerial game, although, most fronting bunkers I've encountered have been on shorter holes, where the aerial game is almost dictated by the yardage.[/color]

Ciao

[RSLivingston_III]

Who amongst the Golden Age designers refered to the short carry bunkers as "top-shot"? I believe they were only refered to as such during the gutty era, when a bunker might be placed to catch a topped or bladed shot and were mostly placed there to force players to hit a properly lofted shot. As I understand it the bunkers you are showing from the GA were placed there to give the lesser skilled a challenge. The "centerline" bunker would have been used to challenge the more skilled player.

I kwow for sure Tom  Bendelow used to employ these "top-short" bunkers though I'm sure most of them have been removed from his courses over the years.

We know all the architects of the early rubber ball era used them, I am asking if any used the term "top shot" in describing them? Or is it a term that was invented on this site?

[Steve Okula]

There are a few surviving top-shot bunkers at Colt's St. Germain in France. They sit about 50-100 yards of the tees, off and on the center lines.

[JR Potts]

We know all the architects of the early rubber ball era used them, I am asking if any used the term "top shot" in describing them? Or is it a term that was invented on this site?

I know I read the term when reading Tom Bendelow: The Johnny Appleseed of American Golf but I'm not sure were it was attributed.  I will pull out the book sometime later and see if it was a term used by his grandson, the author, or attributed to a quote for the era.

[Matthew Petersen]

Patrick,
I can think of lots of centerline bunkers...you just aren't getting to the right courses. You also forget the ones at Warren on #1 and 7, unless you haven't played it since they were put in. Some examples are better than others, but its not for lack of them.

Kingsley and Ballyneal already mentioned
Fazio's Gozzer Ranch #8, 12, 16
Nicklaus' Idaho Club #8, Dove Mountain #4, 8, 9, 15, 18 on the Saguaro/Tortolita combo,  Concession #12
Pete Dye's Promontory Course in Utah #10, 14
Doak's Rock Creek #3
Engh's Creek Club #14 and #18, plus a couple others that are borderline. Plus Lakota #8, Pradera #16, and I'm sure a few others.
C & C's Cuscowilla #14
Kavanaugh's Vista Verde has them all over
Schmidt/Curley's Southern Dunes has a couple examples
Spann's Black Mesa #13, plus a few other holes that are borderline

Talking Stick North #4 and 5, and a centerline hazard on #12.
Cuscowilla #5!!
Friars Head #5!!
Austin Golf Club #9

C&C like those centerline hazards!

C&C also have several at their WeKoPa Saguaro course ... #4, #7, and #13, plus a wash down the middle splitting the fairway at #14.

For that matter, the Cholla course at WeKoPa, which is a Scott Miller design, has centerline hazards at #7, #9, and #10.

[Patrick_Mucci]

RSL III,

I've seen the term "top shot bunker" from other sources and I've seen it used prior to the introduction of GCA.com

Hope that helps

[Bill_McBride]

RSL III,

I've seen the term "top shot bunker" from other sources and I've seen it used prior to the introduction of GCA.com

Hope that helps

Does Darwin perhaps use the term?  He wrote a lot about how "foozlers" played the courses and hazards.

[Doug Siebert]

Is there a role for top shot bunkers (or the modern equivalent, top shot ponds/creeks/ravines) off the tee any longer?  With the modern 460cc driver and high tees, I rarely see topped shots except by really really poor players.  But once in the fairway topped shots are just as likely today as they were 30 years ago, so maybe those features - if desired at all - would better defend the approach.

[David Druzisky]

My approach to this:  That damn centerline is in conflict with that bunker.

[Greg Clark]

I'm a fan of centerline bunkers as well.  Here in the Dallas area the new Tripp Davis/Justin Leanord effort, The Old American Golf Club has maybe 9 or 10 holes with centerline bunkering.  It is the strength of the course.