Course length/Appropriate tees

[Tim Nugent]

Matt, unfortunately MGMT is most concerned about the 1st tee, after that, the plane is in the air.  As long as the starter can get the players on the course, they have made their nickel of them.  So, if they can get them to open the wallet on the course, well - so much the better.  Now, from their point of view, if things are a bit, ahhh - SLOW, would one be a bit more inclined to partake from the rolling diner/bar?  So, just how much incentive do they have to spend money on rangers (the most hated of all GC jobs and players alike)?
As for slow play, a ball landing on the green as the "pokies" are walking off can send a message.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Tim,

My group tried that once.  Upon approaching the green, my parter said, "This is my Titlelist. I think that's your Maxfli under the dead guy."

[Matt_Ward]

Tim:

Sometimes mgmt isn't even handling the 1st tee -- after you pay for the round -- which they are soooooooo quick to ask for your credit card -- then all else is up the situation you encounter that day.

Tim, I have no issue with the side goodies (19th hole, etc,  etc) -- but most people would really appreciate if the focus was on the golf and those playing. Once you introduce all the distractions -- you inevitably get the crawl.

Like I said -- if mgmt doesn't know their own facility -- that shocks me. Orientating staff personnel correctly and having them positioned in the right locations would go a long way to keep things going. Frankly, once a reputation for faster play is seen by the players it will encourage more to come there -- thereby increasing the bottom line for that course.

Amazingly, here in the States, where customer service is made to be such a critical item so little is done to understand the 101 etiquette of golf. When I first started playing my Dad beat it into my brain -- that slow play is a cancer and he would not take me to the big course without me realizing that if had a bad hole it's time to pick up the ball and proceed to the next tee. Mgmt at too many places in the States -- simpyl abdicates this responsibility and frankly more and more people are opting for other recreational pursuits that can provide a big time payoff without all the hassles and BS.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

See my post above.  We have seen the enemy and it is us, the golfers, not the starter.

We ALL do things that keep play slower than it absolutely has to be, and they all add up.  Even if someone else in the group does something to slow play, others can help speed it up.  The problem comes when we all give up, blaming the guys in front.  As Tim says, maybe some subtle reminders would work wonders.  From the management side, maybe that comes from the GPS units on carts, but I think it would really take a mild shock unit to really convince golfers to play faster when they are behind......

[Jud_T]

Matt,

You make some valid points, but you can only move a donkey if he wants to move.  Yes you can sack the cart girl and post rangers at every turn to pester folks.  That might get you down to 4:40 from 5:00.  To get to where it should be you'd need a population of Scottish clones.  The single best thing IMHO would be if the PGA tour required 4 hour rounds and slapped real stroke penalties on anyone falling a hole behind.  They're playing in threesomes for god's sake...

[Matt_Ward]

Jud:

In western lore -- when the donkey failed to move -- the pistol was waved in front of its face !

Jud -- make "some valid points." Help me out here -- which area of emphasis did I miss or better yet that you missed.

Frankly, you take the pessimistic approach -- few courses have done anything at all. Just a modicum of effort is all I am
talking about. People say they want faster golf -- then a bit of cooperation and a proactive approach from mgmt gets that
done.

Prohibitions against cel phones are a must.

Simple rule -- you get caught using a cel while on the course -- your money is refunded and you are escorted out. The game of golf here in the States is about making it a tailgate party -- my God, why not just include the plasma TV too !

Attitudes can be changed but mgmt sets the tone. People are like cattle - they wander unless redirected. It can be done.

Jeff:

You have it backwards -- the mgmt of any facility permits the trangressions to happen. Watch what happens when the law is out on the hwys and the people see them. The deterrent is self evident.

Mgmt can build loyalty programs and those that do honor the speed rules. I'm not asking for anything more than what I learned from my Dad and others when I took up the game. If those in the industry really care about the game just look at the declining numbers -- especially from Gen X & Y types. The cost to play and slow play are the two main reasons. Mgmt is at the core in doing much about both of those items in my mind.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Matt,

I doubt many golfers would like golf more with a pistol waved in their face for slow play.  There has to be a better approach, starting with fathers teaching their kids to play.

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

I used that description as writing license -- not literally.

I will tell you this -- mgmt can be quite effective and I have seen instances -- albeit rare -- in my many travels -- even here in the States.

The issue is will !

Mgmt has guys running to take your bag and clean your clubs -- great. They need to properly orientate people on how best to approach people. The Marine sergeant show is not the way.

But -- people have to be encouraged with both the carrot and stick to get their cooperation. So long as its consistent and applied to all -- the net result will work. Behavior can be changed -- the issue is does mgmt have the will / desire to do it. Failing that -- more people will opt out of golf for other leisure pursuits. I don't play Bethpage Black anymore because I tired in having to read sections of the Sunday NY Times on each tee box as people just crawled along for six plus hours.

[Richard Choi]

I see a lot of people spouting their opinions and stating them as facts. I really don't think that is really all that helpful.

If you want to identify a problem than you need to do some study. I have yet to see any scientific studies done on length of play and what exactly causes it. Only thing that I have seen is the length of play increasing based on how far apart tee times are spaced.

If people have some actual facts to back up their claims (on either side), I would love to see it.

I fail to see any conclusive relationship between length of the course and increased round time (or at least how much it affects the time of play).

[Jeff_Brauer]

Richard,

There are industry studies by a Mr. Yates (want to call him Charlie, but that is a first time Masters Competitor I met once)  Bill? that address pace of play.

Distance from green to tee, green to cart path, etc. are all identified.  Stacking of tee times is a culprit.  In short, he says each course has a "standard" playing time, related to those things, difficulty, etc.

That said, I cannot see how playing longer doesn't incrementally equate to playing in more time.  One reason women are percieved as slow players is that they typically play the equivalent of 8000 yard courses for you and me!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
Here's Bill Yates' 2007 interview from this site:

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/feature-interview/interviewyates

[Matt_Ward]

Jeff:

The typical time is calculated without the intervention of mgmt tactics / strategies. If you don't want tees stacked - then space out people appropriately and then make sure that benchmarks are achieved. It's not hard -- for those who want to really do something about it.

Richard:

My time at Bethpage Black is not an opinion -- it's a fact -- six-plus hour golf happens there because mgmt sleeps at the switch. Ditto for way too many courses. People are saying adios to golf because of that -- along with high prices for fees and equipment, etc, etc. That is not opinion.

The issue of slow play is not akin to the study and analysis of sending a man to Mars.

C'mon -- it's quite elementary and e-z to implement.

If there's no will -- there's no way. That simple.

[Tom ORourke]

Some of the discussion here involves handicaps, kind of assuming higher handicaps play slower as they hit more shots. I think that is usually correct but not always. My wife shoots between 92 and 101 and I will play with her anytime as she is one of the fastest players in our club. The standing joke at our place is that if we had a radar gun we could prove that she is the fastest walker in the club. She never takes a practice swing and zips down the fairway pulling a cart. And she is 58 years old. She might be a 23 handicap, but her speed handicap is around a +4. My son is a 5 handicap but plays so slowly that I would rather play with her than him. I wish we could set tee times based on a speed index. You would post your score, and also your length of round time. I don't care much about the first number, tell me the second. And, my wife has no desire to go to the back tees to see what she would shoot from there. Can we invent a speed handicap and players can only go off faster first, slower second, slowest last? I don't care what you shoot, just don't take too long to do it.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Matt,
Yes, but here's a section from the interview highlighting length , 1 & 3 are pertinent to the discussion.
 
Every hole’s Time Par is uniquely created and includes discrete time values to account for each of the following elements:

Length Time: This is the base time for the hole and is calculated by using the hole’s playing length from the most frequently used tees. Length Time accounts for all of the time to play the game from the tee to flag-in. Note: there are separate Length Time formulae for walking and/or riding and for when carts are restricted to cart paths.

Obstacle Time: additional time is allowed for overcoming significant obstacles on each hole. Note: Using the 10 obstacle categories that are rated for each hole when determining the course Slope Rating, additional time is allowed for any obstacle rated as being more difficult than average, except for the obstacle water, which always gets additional time.

Green to Tee Distance Time: additional time is also allowed to account for travelling from the center of the green to the center of the tee of the next hole.

Halfway House Time: The USGA allows four minutes to be added to the Time Par of a hole that has a Halfway House stop between it and the next tee[/img]

[Alex Miller]

From the Bill Yates article:

While the average playing length of a course in the UK was 6,344 yards and the average playing length of a U.S. course was 6,316 yards (measurements from the most frequently played tees), the total green to tee distances of a UK course were 788 yards while the average green to tee distances for a U.S. course totalled 3,061 yards. In the U.S. we travel almost four times farther going from greens to tees than they do. As a result, the average UK Pace Rating I calculated was 3:58 and the average Pace Rating for the U.S. courses I measured was 4:12, or 4:30 on courses where carts are restricted to cart paths.
.........................................................................................

Another important thing he noted is that thick rough is a huge pace killer, while bunkers and water are not because rough takes the longest amount of time to search for a ball. That would explain slow rounds at courses such as Bethpage Black.

Also, there is an important distinction between slow play and a course taking longer to play. Some courses just take longer because of the way they're designed, but they feel slow when we have to wait. According to Yates, this is due to stacked tee times, par sequencing and "reachable" holes.

[Richard Choi]

That is a very nice article. Thanks for the link.

Based on that article, Bill Yates recommend following for improving pace of play:

1. Management Practices and Policies
2. Player Behaviour
3. Player Ability
4. Course Maintenance and Set-up
5. Course Design

So, why are people so hung up on 4 & 5 when there are bigger factors (as Alex points out above)?

More precisely, sure, it may take more time to play if the course is longer, but what if it only adds 10 seconds more for each 100 total yards? Unless we know exactly how much effect total yards have on over length of play, focusing mostly on that aspect is pointless.

[Jud_T]

Richard,

If the average 20 hdcp takes 4 hours to play from 6000 yards, what would you guess it would take him to play from 6700 yards given similar hazards etc.?  My ignorant guess would be about 12% longer or 4 1/2 hours.  Sure there are other factors, but to ignore this seems just as silly as solely focusing on it...

[Niall C]

Matt,

You make some valid points, but you can only move a donkey if he wants to move.  Yes you can sack the cart girl and post rangers at every turn to pester folks.  That might get you down to 4:40 from 5:00.  To get to where it should be you'd need a population of Scottish clones.  The single best thing IMHO would be if the PGA tour required 4 hour rounds and slapped real stroke penalties on anyone falling a hole behind.  They're playing in threesomes for god's sake...

Jud

I'll re-iterate, not everyone in Scotland gets a move on. As for the Elie notice you posted from Elie, most other clubs have something similar but the thing you have got to remember is that Elie is more or less a hundred years old with a hundred year old design. That means shorter course with the next tee almost always adjacent to the previous green. That speeds things up a great deal.

I do appreciate what Matt is saying about drinks carts going round interrupting play and thats certainly something you don't really see over here. In fact I'm struggling to think of a UK course that does that, and while I believe what he says and have experienced it in US, Spain and Portugal for myself, I have had many 4 and a half to 5 hour rounds in this country on courses where you weren't being sold food and drink during the round. To me the main problem is poor course management by the players ie. not being prepared to hit their shot on cue, leaving their bags in the wrong location for the next tee and just general dawdling along.

Niall

[Jim_Kennedy]

RC,
I wouldn't argue that management practices are #1, but #2 behavior, and #3, ability, are inextricable elements of the total picture.

#2 - Slow players are going to be slow if they play from 6,000 or 7,500 yards, but playing from 7,500 makes them slower and that  has a correlation with

#3- Ability - to handle the additional 1,500 yards.  

[Richard Choi]

Richard,

If the average 20 hdcp takes 4 hours to play from 6000 yards, what would you guess it would take him to play from 6700 yards given similar hazards etc.?  My ignorant guess would be about 12% longer or 4 1/2 hours.  Sure there are other factors, but to ignore this seems just as silly as solely focusing on it...

Jud you are making a guess, perhaps an educated guess, but it is still just a guess. I could also claim that the same player only plays 1.2% longer and my guess would be just as valid as yours.

Even better, what if getting rid of thick rough reduces the round by 30%? If that was true, the 20 hdcp player can play from 6700 yards and still have a round shorter.

[Jud_T]

yes, but he'd be even faster from 6000...

[Richard Choi]

RC,
I wouldn't argue that management practices are #1, but #2 behavior, and #3, ability, are inextricable elements of the total picture.

#2 - Slow players are going to be slow if they play from 6,000 or 7,500 yards, but playing from 7,500 makes them slower and that  has a correlation with

#3- Ability - to handle the additional 1,500 yards.  

Jim you are making conclusions not stated in the article.

Player ability could just mean that they slice the ball a lot and they always end up in the rough searching for their ball (which is pretty typical for weekend players). That would happen even if they were playing from 4500 yards. You don't know how much #5 and #2 react together.

[Richard Choi]

yes, but he'd be even faster from 6000...

Yes, but how much? 10 seconds? 1 minute? 30 minutes? You nor I have any clue on that.

[Jud_T]

Except for playing shorter tees on a long course and having to make the walk anyway, I'd have to think the time would be pretty proportional to the yardage...

[Richard Choi]

So what is that proportion? Is it 1 second per yard? 10 second per yard?

And even you state that it really depends, so how could you make a general statement?