Is Affordable Golf What This Board Really Wants?

[Jim_Kennedy]

It was nice to read where a few of the posters w/good access are choosing to play an easily accessible,  super affordable and family owned golf course called Penny Branch in Furman. SC.

If you want affordable you need to support it.

Oh well, nix this post as I see that Eric Smith has had to ditch Penny Branch for some reason or another.

[Brian Marion]

Here are a few good threads on affordable/lesser known courses...


http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45931.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,35435.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46424.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46160.0.html

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46654.0.html

There is also a GREAT one started by Wyatt Holiday about the lesser known recommendations that he categorized by state.  Phenomenal stuff!  I suggested in be a sticky topic or some sort of a permenant piece, like an In My Opinion piece, but is hasn't yet.  Could someone find that?  That would be a HUGE value add to the members of this site and its guests.

I'm your huckleberry....

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,42908.0.html

[Mac Plumart]

BOOM!!!

Just added it to my favorites so I won't lose it again.

[Mac Plumart]

It was nice to read where a few of the posters w/good access are choosing to play an easily accessible,  super affordable and family owned golf course called Penny Branch in Furman. SC.

If you want affordable you need to support it.

Oh well, nix this post as I see that Eric Smith has had to ditch Penny Branch for some reason or another.

Jim...

They changed their hours of operation due to this weather, so we can't make that tee time.  It is on my hit list of courses to play.  I'll get it hooked back up...probably in March.  If you care to join us, you are welcome.

[Ken Moum]

Ken,

To be honest, I get the impression most of these guys want free golf.

Free is affordable, no?

Yes, but I have long believed that there's too damned much free golf in the industry. Even during the 10 years i worked for GCSAA I rarely angled for free golf, believing that it wasn't a good thing for me or the provider.  I might have played 500 times in those 10 years, with no more than three or four freebies. And mind you, I never once made $40,000 working there.

But the real reason I don't like free golf is that so much of it goes to the folks in the industry who can afford to pay--and who also have significant sway in the way the industry heads.

Even with their high salaries, I'd like to think that if they were paying for golf they might be a tiny bit more sensitive to what it costs. I grew up in a family with four golfers--Mom, Dad and both kids.  I cannot imagine what my dad would have done on some of our summer vacations if he'd been asked to pay $100 or more for each of us.

Well, yes I can, we'd have gone fishing instead.

K

[Doug Siebert]

It strikes me how spot on Ran was to call this golf club atlas, which implies more of a travel site than an architecture discussion site.  While his vision was to discuss gca, apparently he knew intuitively that this would also be an outlet to discuss and fantasize about far away courses most of us will not ever be able to play.

So, its not surprising that we discuss the top courses.  Think about how many truly architectural topics really come up here?  And most folks cannot describe a design theory without a visual example.  If we were truly a gca board, when Joe posted that pix of the HF course near Philly, someone would have commented on how well the grass bank guarded the pin that day, and the possible strategy of hitting the bank behind the pin to get close.

I am certain that is why Joe took that picture.

I dunno Jeff, to me that looks like it may be a sucker play.  That whole left side of the green and the bank itself seems to tilt a bit towards that bunker.  If that green is at all quick I think if you play over the top of that pin you may be playing your next shot from the bunker.  Why else would they have so carefully shaved the grass right up to the edge of the bunker, if not to allow balls to roll in from the green surface?

I do like that angled bank behind and right of the pin as a backboard for playing my sand shot after I get suckered though, since it could be difficult to stop it close from such a deep bunker, as it appears to have a flat bottom...

[Craig Van Egmond]

Ken,

     At the club I belonged to in Seattle, they always used to let guys like Jay Buhner, Ken Griffrey, etc. play for free and it always struck me as odd. Here these guys were making millions and they got to play for free, but the wouldn't discount rounds after 4:00 pm to anyone.  Good for publicity my eye.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys, get over it.

Free golf is no different than celebrities getting front row Broadway show tickets -- or the best seats at a concert, ballgame or a restaurant.

The people that run those places see the upside in terms of publicity and the like.

Sorry to say the average Joe & Jane don't get such special treatment.

[Adrian_Stiff]

What is affordable golf? Do we define this by price? In the UK, there is a £15 attitude as affordable, this translates $23 US.

[Mac Plumart]

Adrian...

I think it was decided that $40ish dollars was affordable.  I forget who it was exactly that started it, but they did an opportunity cost analysis and came up with that price.  For the same money and time, you could go to the movies and get a coke and some popcorn.  Something like that. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Mac - $40 translates £26 for the UK. I reckon you can play a lot of different  UK golf courses at less than £26 if you play out of the best times of course. £26 definitely translates a line to me that some find expensive if you go over that and certainly plus £30 starts to be a bit of an obstacle for the majoroty. Largely though I agree ($40) is probably the right number to scar the line.

[Ken Moum]

Guys, get over it.

Free golf is no different than celebrities getting front row Broadway show tickets -- or the best seats at a concert, ballgame or a restaurant.

The people that run those places see the upside in terms of publicity and the like.

Sorry to say the average Joe & Jane don't get such special treatment.

Of course that's true, but the folks I was talking about are certainly not celebrities, not even within the golf community.

And I know it's pointless to talk about it.

So I rarely do.

K

[Matt_Ward]

Ken:

Smart mgmt will know how to keep things in balance. Getting the word out is what builds fanfare and more dollars at the register. Knowing how to do it is the key things.

Mac:

C'mon -- please be a bit more elastic than $40 !

I would dare say that one could easily go up to $60 and claim the affordable notion.

If memory serves -- GD, when they ran their best affordable I believe $50 was the threshold and that was
a few years ago.

One other thing -- although there have been a few threads on affordable and quality layouts -- more info on this topic clearly is beneficial.

[Eric_Terhorst]

The great question that has never been answered, and which I have not yet been able to answer despite my 3 years of research into the golfing soul, is "What does this discussion board really want?"

Dr. Sigmund Freud, PhD, MA, B.Lit
ASGCA

 

I know I want affordable golf. 

I also want free golf, expense-account golf, elitist golf, expensive golf, muni golf, country-club golf, resort golf, and Top 100 golf.

Whenever I am playing links, cliff-top, prairie, parkland, lake-side, desert (with or without over-seeded rye), Bermuda, bent, fescue, or paspalum golf I am pleased. 

I want Kiawah, Baja, Arizona, California, Florida, Carolina, Australia, Nova Scotia, British Columbia, and Tasmania golf. Plus Scotland, Ireland, Northern Ireland, England, and New Zealand golf.  And Bandon and Wales golf too.

I’m jonesing for golf on courses designed by Doak, Coore-Crenshaw, Kidd, Axland-Proctor, DeVries, Brauer, Cowley, George, Moran, Hanse, Parsinen, Foster, Fought, Dye, Nicklaus, and Fazio, plus Ross and Mackenzie and Tillinghast and a bunch of other old dead guys too numerous to mention.

Speaking of courses I’ve never played, I want golf with Natalie Gulbis, Anna Rawson, and Paula Creamer.  Is that affordable?

[Sean_A]

Mac - $40 translates £26 for the UK. I reckon you can play a lot of different  UK golf courses at less than £26 if you play out of the best times of course. £26 definitely translates a line to me that some find expensive if you go over that and certainly plus £30 starts to be a bit of an obstacle for the majoroty. Largely though I agree ($40) is probably the right number to scar the line.

Adrian

This is one area where the US beats the UK to hell - good golf at $40/£26.  There is very, very little good golf in the UK at that price point unless you are a member of a club.  Usually, cheap golf is on very poor soil which is a bog in the winter and rock hard in the summer, or very short courses or something else funky going on.  You have to travel far and wide as a golfer to stick to that affordable budget if you have any aspiration to play interesting golf courses in decent condition.  Perhaps this is why the golf scene in the UK in the main centres around club membership and why good, affordable public golf never developed. 

Ciao

[Adrian_Stiff]

I see affordable golf as cheap entry golf not the same way as your looking at it. If you could play with a member introduction I would imagine $40 - £26 would get you in 90% of UK clubs.... that of course leaves you the top 300 where you might have to pay more.
Most UK inland courses will be wet in the winter, though I think many have decent greens these days. I think today we are Open but on fairway mats.
Realistically you like top 300 courses, ie the cream, so you have to expect to pay more for that top 10%. Its hard to produce great golf for people at sub $40 even in the UK, $60 is possible for courses in the 101-300 range.
A real issue is getting new people to play golf and that starts nearer the £15 mark.

[Scott Warren]

Adrian,

I my experience, most of the better English clubs are asking £30 or less from a members' guest.

[JR Potts]

Chalk me up as a cynic here but I don't think that affordable golf is a possibility in today's environment.  Obviously, any course constructed needs to be built in a location that can and will attract players.  The premise alone is a non-starter when working the pro forma.  If the population base is gong to be there, then land values alone will destroy the affordable pro forma.

If, by the grace of God one is to pick up a parcel at a steal, we still have the problem of labor costs.  Bulldozers, laborers, engineers all come at a price - and that price that isn't going down.  Those costs will destroy the affordable pro forma.

Now, let's operate the thing....nope, not gonna happen unless we find a way for grass to grow into divot holes but only grow to a certain length all by itself.

The only way in my estimation to provide an affordable golf experience is to: a) get a really rich guy to bank roll it and bury his head in the sand as to profits and losses; b) find a governmental funding source (which will never happen for the foreseeable future; c) adjust our expectations to play really lousy golf courses with lousy maintenance; or d) travel a long distance away with cheap land and labor which ironically, makes the game unaffordable for many except those few in the immediate vicinity.

[John Kavanaugh]

Affordable golf is possible, affordable golf how you like it is not.  Don't think of it as paying to play when the reality is you are paying to keep the idiots away. 

[JR Potts]

Yes John, it is very much like affordable housing.

[John Kavanaugh]

How are our many friends in the industry going to survive if this demand for affordable golf succeeds?  Where will there be architect fees, pro salaries, college educated super positions and the many fine people already barely getting by in the service positions?  I'm embarrassed by the number of people on this board who on one thread speak of honor of the game and then on another think they have the right to play this game giving up only their precious free time.  If you are not paying more than you can afford you have not earned the right to say you love the game.  Hey, there is nothing wrong with being an opportunistic hobbiest, that is why eBay and Walmart continue to succeed.

Note:  My son asked me last night why I have spent so much money in my life on golf, he thinks he will be clever and not get hooked, all I could tell him is that it may be expensive but remains much cheaper than divorcing his mother.  Everyman needs an unaffordable vice to keep his sanity, golf is better than all but three.   

[Adrian_Stiff]

This affordable golf bracket has become crazy. If you want top golf, ie the better courses its going to cost. If you want to play lesser courses then they will be cheaper. A golf course has to balance the books.... simply do the maths, if you sell a £10 note for £9 you will quickly sink.

[Matt_Ward]

Guys,

Look ...

There are places where one can play for little but little is there to start with.

If that works for you then knock yourself out and enjoy it.

There is a happy medium and many facilities are now starting to price with that in mind.

[Sean_A]

I think some of you folks are out of whack with your concept of affordable.  When I say affordable it is in terms of a guy who already has committed to golf.  He is willing to buy equipment, make time and set aside money to play.  I am not taking about affordable for folks making minimum wage - that is a pipe dream and to be honest one I can't understand.  If we are saying that teh avergae guy who is committed to the game is only willing to spend £15/$24 per game then golf IS IN BIG TROUBLE and there is no way out regardless of how much we talk about it.  However, I don't think those numbers are accurate. 

Ciao

[Jud_T]

I agree with Matt on this one.  In most any metro area you're not going to play more than a pitch and putt for under $40 prime-time.   $60 seems like a more reasonable cutoff, and even that's a stretch in major markets....What we really need is a more sophisticated Cost of Living adjusted matrix.  $25 in the middle of nowhere may in fact be a worse deal than $60 outside LA...