[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike,

The DAC's location was an impediment.

I always viewed it as a "Wall Street" and financial district club.

NYAC and Winged Foot were joined at the foot  

No question that there's a clash in cultures and utilization patterns.

With my dad's generation the club was the focal point of the social and business community.
They had breakfast, played golf Sat & Sun moring, had lunch and either played more golf or cards, while their wives came up for lunch, played golf and joined them for dinner and dancing.

Like the dinasaurs, that pattern is all but extinct.

In my mind, the real impediment is cost, especially for a young family.

Clubs made the mistake of becoming elitist, spending lavishly, and because there was always a pool of prospective members, they could be aloof, picking and choosing who they wanted to cater to.

Clubs forced dining on the members.
they forced a losing enterprise to expand, thus losing more money.
And, along the way, they spent plenty of capital to make their dining areas lavish, so that they could also attract outside events, thus becoming glorified catering halls.

I know of one club that created a special room so that some member/s could have lunch with their grandchildren, so you had capital costs, and then, additional operating costs for a room that had a handful of members having an occassional lunch.  What a waste.

The question I ask every board member at every club is the following.

IF you bought your club today, what would you change to make it function without losing money , without increasing dues

They usually know the answers, but, are reluctant to champion those decisions because of the clash of culture it would create at the club

[jeffwarne]

Pat, try having lunch with younger guys. There are few clubs good times or bad that do not have these as constant themes with the very mature set.

Tiger,

First and foremost, I try to have lunch with younger women.

Secondly, the younger generation is part of the problem, a clash of cultures so to speak.

The younger golfers, want to tee off at 7:00 and be out of there by 10:30-11:00 due to their family responsibilities.

That creates lots of problems for the club.

They're not going to bring in wait staff at 6:00-6:30.
Local ordinances prohibit the green crew from mowing very early, thus, the conditions can be less than ideal.
Sometimes the greens have to be mowed based on their location relative to the neighbors, so, one green can be slow and the next green fast.  Not the end of the world, but, not what you want from your golf course.

And, there's no utilization from the younger in terms of the food and other services at the club.
They don't have lulnch or dinner

As a result of the generational differences, I've suggested that clubs become more "golf" oriented, and less social or collateral services oriented.

Pat,
If they're skipping lunch, why not bring in the wait staff at 6 and bump the breakfast prices up a bit?
or have a continental simple buffet.
We start  teeing off at 7 (range 6:30) and it'd be earlier except for the maintenance race you refer to-but a lot more than cutting greens is being done.
(I'd say do less maintenance and let 'em play but that's taboo in the"everything has to perfect" world of million dollar courses)
Interestingly that walk mowed, super tight approach is way too tight for any of our members to pitch off of
In a highly seasonal operation such as ours, I see no problem opening early as it gets light at 4:15 in June out east.

[Lou_Duran]

The mistake for golf would be to say "it was just a recession problem". It my opinion, it is a lifestyle problem for golf, but the debt is not going to help clubs.

I am afraid that you're right, though I think the trend has been exacerbated by the economic realities resulting from kicking the can for the past 50 years.  And this appears to be across demographic segments.  Several of my friends have dropped their private club memberships and report that they are not missing it much.  I can't think of any of my son's friends, a number of them who were good golfers with access to their parents' clubs, that have joined a private club.

The NGF's own analysis show that while the "Boomers" are playing golf in numbers approaching previous forecasts, the subsequent generations are not.  If Mike's insight regarding lifesyle is accurate as I think it is, what's going to happen to the industry when the "Boomers" stop playing due to economics or age?  Who is going to backfill the loss of demand from us geezers?  And if the "new normal" is high unemployment, high public spending, and low investment returns (risk and inflation adjusted), are the "oldsters" going to feel comfortable spending their nest eggs on golf?  Easier and much cheaper to stay in our pajamas and post on GCA.com.

Yes, Bill McBride, Murphy was an optimist.  I am just hoping, probably irrationally, that our Bandon excursion in March, my third, is treated with a bit better weather than the dreadful stuff we had for the first two.  Having the utmost respect for Murphy, my new rain gloves should be arriving shortly.    

[Jim_Kennedy]

The younger golfers, want to tee off at 7:00 and be out of there by 10:30-11:00 due to their family responsibilities. That creates lots of problems for the club. They're not going to bring in wait staff at 6:00-6:30.
No, but on the weekend the club could organize a family oriented breakfast buffet so the Dads could stop in at the turn, grab a plate of bacon and eggs, spend 20 minutes or so with the family, and head back out.    

Local ordinances prohibit the green crew from mowing very early, thus, the conditions can be less than ideal.
Sometimes the greens have to be mowed based on their location relative to the neighbors, so, one green can be slow and the next green fast.  Not the end of the world, but, not what you want from your golf course.
Fully electric greens mowers are available. If buying one retains one member per year over the life of the unit it is a worthwhile purchase.  
  
And, there's no utilization from the younger in terms of the food and other services at the club. They don't have lunch or dinner.
Maybe the younger members would show up a few times a month if the dining facility had a family oriented menu, served family style, one or two nights per week or perhaps on a weekend afternoon. A simple survey of the younger membership would reveal if the idea was feasible before implementing it. The members who are grand parents might really enjoy it too.

As a result of the generational differences, I've suggested that clubs become more "golf" oriented, and less social or collateral services oriented.
Never a bad idea, if that's what will 'save' the club.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The younger golfers, want to tee off at 7:00 and be out of there by 10:30-11:00 due to their family responsibilities. That creates lots of problems for the club. They're not going to bring in wait staff at 6:00-6:30.

No, but on the weekend the club could organize a family oriented breakfast buffet so the Dads could stop in at the turn, grab a plate of bacon and eggs, spend 20 minutes or so with the family, and head back out.    

Jim, we offered a FULL service menu for breakfast.

Allowing golfers to stop at the turn would slow down play and create chaos, especially when we tee off both nines in the morning.

Local ordinances prohibit the green crew from mowing very early, thus, the conditions can be less than ideal.
Sometimes the greens have to be mowed based on their location relative to the neighbors, so, one green can be slow and the next green fast.  Not the end of the world, but, not what you want from your golf course.

Fully electric greens mowers are available. If buying one retains one member per year over the life of the unit it is a worthwhile purchase.  

That would seem like a viable alternative
  
And, there's no utilization from the younger in terms of the food and other services at the club. They don't have lunch or dinner.
Maybe the younger members would show up a few times a month if the dining facility had a family oriented menu, served family style, one or two nights per week or perhaps on a weekend afternoon.

We've tried specialty nights.  For families, only the Sunday afternoon/night Bar B Q's have had favorable results


A simple survey of the younger membership would reveal if the idea was feasible before implementing it. The members who are grand parents might really enjoy it too.

Unfortunately, we have fewer and fewer derivitives, which may be part of the problem

As a result of the generational differences, I've suggested that clubs become more "golf" oriented, and less social or collateral services oriented.
Never a bad idea, if that's what will 'save' the club.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Do the early birds who want to tee off by 7 really need a waitstaff?
The chef or his asst. is probably already in for the morning and all that he/she needs is one helper to assist and then bus. The line can all be set up the night before and the food can be cooked up in a short period of time in the morning. The whole affair can be done and cleaned up by 7:30 to make way for the sit-down crowd.  If the club isn't providing any food now then this type of arrangement can work, if the early birds can handle a little informality.

Or you could contract with a food truck operator to be in the parking from 6 'til 7. 

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,
Do the early birds who want to tee off by 7 really need a waitstaff?
The chef or his asst. is probably already in for the morning and all that he/she needs is one helper to assist and then bus. The line can all be set up the night before and the food can be cooked up in a short period of time in the morning. The whole affair can be done and cleaned up by 7:30 to make way for the sit-down crowd.  If the club isn't providing any food now then this type of arrangement can work, if the early birds can handle a little informality.

Or you could contract with a food truck operator to be in the parking from 6 'til 7. 

A roach coach?

[Jim_Kennedy]

Bill,
I don't think we'd see the food truck at Pat's club. 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Do the early birds who want to tee off by 7 really need a waitstaff?

Jim,

Let's look at it from their perspective.
They pay full dues and expect services commensurate with their payment.
Do they need wait staff ?  Or, are they entitled to wait staff based upon the dues they pay.
If the club is open for play, shouldn't the range and dining facility be available to them ?

At a club where I was on the Board, each month we got a report on how many meals were served on each day of the week, for Breakfast, lunch and dinner.

After studying the utilization pattern, we discontinued full service breakfast, in favor of a far more limited breakfast.

I think that's smart.
Clubs can no longer be all things to all people.
But, that Board only had 13 members.
Other Boards I served on had 24 members with Ex-Presidents getting additional votes.
Talk about chaotic meetings that lasted from 6:00 to midnight, whereas there wasn't a board meeting that lasted more than an hour on the 13 member board I served on.

Members are entitled to reasonable services, but, each club must decide, based on their utilization and cost factors, what they will provide for their members

The chef or his asst. is probably already in for the morning and all that he/she needs is one helper to assist and then bus.
YES and NO
And that's the problem, you can't predict utilization.
Some days you get a full house, other days, hardly anyone, but, members expect service, so you almost always have to OVER STAFF, and that costs money.  It's the same with dinner.  Many clubs don't require reservations, members just show up, so how do you staff for that ?  You can't turn a member away because you're busy, you have to accomodate them.  And, you can't charge a member for cancelling, so it remains a dilema from a staffing and ordering perspective.


The line can all be set up the night before and the food can be cooked up in a short period of time in the morning.

What if you don't have dinner service the night before ?
It's not as easy as it would seem.

The whole affair can be done and cleaned up by 7:30 to make way for the sit-down crowd.  If the club isn't providing any food now then this type of arrangement can work, if the early birds can handle a little informality.

Or you could contract with a food truck operator to be in the parking from 6 'til 7. 

Toast and OJ are good for me, but, others want pancakes, others eggs, others french toast, eggs benedict, etc., etc..

When members are paying substantial dues, they feel entitled to full services, superior services.

It's a difficult culture to change

[Doug Siebert]

Why can't you do these things?  Just because members expect things to be a certain way because they have been that way in the past?  Why can't you tell them you have made these changes in order to cut costs and keep dues from going up?  You further tell them that if they disagree they can put forth a petition for all members to vote on that will raise dues by x amount each year in lieu of making these cuts.

I guess it comes down to which do you think would cost more members.  Raising dues as necessary to maintain services at the same level, or reducing services to avoid raising dues.  The answer would depend on the membership....a club with a lot of CEOs and hedge fund managers is probably not going to worry about a dues increase, but will expect premium service.  A club with a membership of more modest means may have a different answer.

Put another way, if you're paying dues of $25,000 per year, an extra $500 to keep a high level of service is pretty small thing, and only an increase of 2%.  But if dues are $5,000 per year, its no longer a small thing.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
No, the restaurant doesn't need to be staffed for sit-down breakfasts at 6:30 and neither does the range. If I'm the member who wants to get in and get out by 11 a.m. I don't think my priorities include sitting down for a leisurely breakfast at 6 and then spending 1/2 hour warming up so I can make my 7 am tee time. Give me something quick and leave a bin of balls out so I can hit a dozen and then head to the tee. Every business has hours, just set them and be done with it, and if enough members think they are being under served they can bring their complaints up at a board meeting.
But I thought we were mainly talking about the guys on the weekend who wanted to get in and out quickly? If you want to take care of the overall restaurant problem then you need to come up with ideas that work, like reservations or menu changes, and let the members know that by doing so they will be saving themselves future increases in their minimums while getting better service. That ought to keep the majority of them happy.  

Or you can run it like a Greek restaurant, a 10 page menu with 200 choices that all made from half a dozen items.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jim & Doug,

You're fighting a culture that's been imbedded for six decades.

If the solution, in a member owned club, were so easy, it would have been figured out long ago.

For whatever the reason, smart executives/entepreneurs can't make the difficult decisions at their clubs that they make every day in their business.  Maybe it has to do with "democracy" at clubs, or maybe it's their desire to go to a club to relax rather than to create problems, but, prudent decisions seem harder to come by.

I have my own theories about how to run the club, but, while some may agree, many are afraid to implement them. 

No one knows the sure fire formula for success, but, surely the formula for failure is to try to please everyone.

[JMEvensky]

Pat,you and I could serve on a club's Board together.Of course,we might be the only 2 remaining after a few meetings.

[Mike Nuzzo]

No one knows the sure fire formula for success, but, surely the formula for failure is to try to please everyone.

Very nice.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Conceding to the notion that nothing can be accomplished because it's too hard or that 60 years of inbreeding makes it nearly impossible doesn't sound like you.

There are few problems that are insurmountable, but for the process to be successful it requires knowing if the members are truly part of the greater idea to which they initially subscribed, or are they just along for the ride. The 'true believers' will adapt to what may be a loss of service, temporary or permanent, and the 'riders' will either go along or head on down the road....and if the club still can't get it's own members to agree on ways to save their failing organization then they should look outside to find someone who can, someone whose views aren't stagnated by club politics or driven by personal agenda.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat,
Conceding to the notion that nothing can be accomplished because it's too hard or that 60 years of inbreeding makes it nearly impossible doesn't sound like you.

Jim,

It's really interesting.  I worked hard while on the board to bring about change, to depart from the prior cultural practices, to meet the changing times.

Some of my ideas were accepted, some, in the more controversial areas, were rejected as being too extreme.
But, I felt that extreme problems required extreme solutions.
Now that I'm off the board, my opinion for how to deal with these and other issues is solicited.
I'd like to get involved, but, I  don't want to waste my time, the most precious of commodities these days.
Instead of leaping in and getting involved, I ask a simple question.  Will you implement the suggestions/solutions I propose ?
If the answer is "no" I then ask,, then why are you asking me to invest my time and efforts related to this issue. ?

I just don't have the patience to get involved in the paralysis through analysis and political process at clubs.
I think I understand the circumstances, facts, and the problem.  I think I know the, or one of the, solutions, but, I'm not going to waste my time contemplating my navel or the equivalent at a club.  If I learned one thing from sitting in the waiting rooms at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, it was how precious time is.  I'd rather devote my brain, my time and my efforts  toward myself, my family, my business, my friends, my charities and the projects I enjoy that will have positive outcomes.

There are few problems that are insurmountable, but for the process to be successful it requires knowing if the members are truly part of the greater idea to which they initially subscribed, or are they just along for the ride. The 'true believers' will adapt to what may be a loss of service, temporary or permanent, and the 'riders' will either go along or head on down the road....and if the club still can't get it's own members to agree on ways to save their failing organization then they should look outside to find someone who can, someone whose views aren't stagnated by club politics or driven by personal agenda.

Jim, If they put me in charge, I'd fix the problem, but, that ain't gonna happen.

Instead I've devoted my efforts to projects that I enjoy that culminate in positive results.

My GCA.com get together in September was one of those projects.
I was sorry that you missed it, I think you would have enjoyed the day.
That project took a lot of time and work, but, I enjoyed it because I knew it would be a terrific event for Mountain Ridge, the presenters, the attendees and me.  And, it was.

As you know, I don't believe in democracy at clubs, and most clubs have that form of governance, so, I'd prefer to remain in exile, and when solicited, offer any meaningful help I can, when I feel that my response will be acted upon

right now, my first priority is  a terrible problem with my irons that I need to fix

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

Pat touche touche, I also try to meet as many younger women as possible too. I would normally think this was a typo but with your command of the language I look at it as a rule for the younger guys to live by. I do agree with the member patterns you describe. It is the case at my Louisiana club for sure. I am not sure as much so at the others. none the less the clubs will have to adjust to the needs of their members to survive. cheers to the lucky younger women we meet this month.

[Peter Pallotta]

Pat - really good post. I don't know the world at all, but your post made me think that, as courses regroup and do some soul searching, there is a good opporunity (and the necessity) for them to develop and post on their 'front door' in the biggest letters and boldest colours their "Vision" and the their "Ten Commandments" -- the goals they aspire to and the rules that will get them there. Any member will be obliged to look and those goals and rules and make a conscious decision whether to walk through that door or not. I think many would be interested in what your Vision and Ten Commandments would be for the next generation/iteration of a private golf club whould be.
Peter

[Patrick_Mucci]

Peter,

Each club has their unique culture, so it's hard to make generalizations, but, I think you can make generalizations about the pool of potential members today, the younger members.

Their family patterns are different than my dad's generation and certainly different from my generation's.

One of the problems with clubs is that most governing members govern on a voluntary basis.
They also tend to inherit the club's past culture and they tend to perpetuate it.
If they make changes, it's like that big ocean tanker, it takes a long time to turn to react to changing conditions or a threat.

I think there's always been a clash of generations.

I know that when I was first appointed to a Board that I came in conflict with older Board members, respectfully, but, in conflict nonetheless.

I saw the change in utilization patterns amongst my peers.
Whether they saw it or not, the older members resisted change, choosing to retain the status quo.
I understand that.  I too became the older board member resisting change.
I fought like crazy to preserve the dress code, on and off the golf course.
I'm a traditionalist, I don't want caps on backwards, shirts untucked, jeans, etc.,etc.

What bothered me even more, which surprised me even more, was the dress code I saw at Funerals.
I thought it was disrespectful and an indication that the younger generation had gotten lazy.
I saw it at church, in court, in restaurants, on airplanes and other venues.
It was obvious, the tide was rising against me, but, I felt that if a club was to be viewed as special, it had to distinguish itself from fads and trends that were becoming popular.

If you're invited to Pine Valley, Seminole and other special clubs, you won't see anyone, members or guests, wearing their hats backwards, shirts untucked, or jeans.  I like that, that's the environment that golf was meant to be played in.

I do have to laugh at one incident.  A member of a club brought his girlfriend, whom he had just started living with, to his club in NJ.
She was from California and had moved here to live with him.
She was gorgeous and had a great figure.
Previously, a number of the women at the club were lobbying for a more relaxed dress code.
They wanted shorter shorts, shorter skirts and skorts, spaghetti string tops, halter tops, tank tops and some wanted to be able to not wear a bra.

The clique lobbying for these changes were married to a good number of board members.

The first time this members girlfriend showed up, she was wearing white short shorts and high heels and a blue tank top.

I'll never forget that outfit

She looked spectacular and the men members were hovering around her like bees to honey.

At the next board meeting, motions were made to introduce a new, stricter dress code.
And where do you think that movement came from ?
From the same women who only a month or so earlier were lobbying for more informal attire.
But, once they saw what that bombshell looked like in that outfit, and how she might look in the outfits they were lobbying for, and how their husbands responded to her, the Kabash was in.

It just goes to show you were the seat of power really lies.

[Peter Pallotta]

Ha !

Thanks, Patrick - another very good post.

And strike what I said in my previous post: I guess I DO understand the world -- i.e. it's the same world all over and the world over, and for as long as the world's been the world!

Peter

[Bill_McBride]

Pat,
Conceding to the notion that nothing can be accomplished because it's too hard or that 60 years of inbreeding makes it nearly impossible doesn't sound like you.

Jim,

It's really interesting.  I worked hard while on the board to bring about change, to depart from the prior cultural practices, to meet the changing times.

Some of my ideas were accepted, some, in the more controversial areas, were rejected as being too extreme.
But, I felt that extreme problems required extreme solutions.
Now that I'm off the board, my opinion for how to deal with these and other issues is solicited.
I'd like to get involved, but, I  don't want to waste my time, the most precious of commodities these days.
Instead of leaping in and getting involved, I ask a simple question.  Will you implement the suggestions/solutions I propose ?
If the answer is "no" I then ask,, then why are you asking me to invest my time and efforts related to this issue. ?

I just don't have the patience to get involved in the paralysis through analysis and political process at clubs.
I think I understand the circumstances, facts, and the problem.  I think I know the, or one of the, solutions, but, I'm not going to waste my time contemplating my navel or the equivalent at a club.  If I learned one thing from sitting in the waiting rooms at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center, it was how precious time is.  I'd rather devote my brain, my time and my efforts  toward myself, my family, my business, my friends, my charities and the projects I enjoy that will have positive outcomes.

There are few problems that are insurmountable, but for the process to be successful it requires knowing if the members are truly part of the greater idea to which they initially subscribed, or are they just along for the ride. The 'true believers' will adapt to what may be a loss of service, temporary or permanent, and the 'riders' will either go along or head on down the road....and if the club still can't get it's own members to agree on ways to save their failing organization then they should look outside to find someone who can, someone whose views aren't stagnated by club politics or driven by personal agenda.

Jim, If they put me in charge, I'd fix the problem, but, that ain't gonna happen.

Instead I've devoted my efforts to projects that I enjoy that culminate in positive results.

My GCA.com get together in September was one of those projects.
I was sorry that you missed it, I think you would have enjoyed the day.
That project took a lot of time and work, but, I enjoyed it because I knew it would be a terrific event for Mountain Ridge, the presenters, the attendees and me.  And, it was.

As you know, I don't believe in democracy at clubs, and most clubs have that form of governance, so, I'd prefer to remain in exile, and when solicited, offer any meaningful help I can, when I feel that my response will be acted upon

right now, my first priority is  a terrible problem with my irons that I need to fix

Let me know what you figure out with the irons. I hit two greens Saturday and did't hit the ball that well.   

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ha !

Thanks, Patrick - another very good post.

And strike what I said in my previous post: I guess I DO understand the world -- i.e. it's the same world all over and the world over, and for as long as the world's been the world!

Peter,

Human Nature hasn't changed much since the Greek Tradgedies or good olde Billy Shakespeare.

Boy did she have great legs, and everything else to match.

Bill,

I know what I'm doing wrong.  The question is, can I correct it quickly.

I"ve gotten into a bad habit of coming inside to quickly on my backswing and can't get the club square at impact, resulting in lots of heel and off center hits, that's coupled with casting from the top, before the impact zone.

But, at least I understand the problem, now, in the dead of winter, all I can do is think about it.

[Bill_McBride]

Bill,

I know what I'm doing wrong.  The question is, can I correct it quickly.

I"ve gotten into a bad habit of coming inside to quickly on my backswing and can't get the club square at impact, resulting in lots of heel and off center hits, that's coupled with casting from the top, before the impact zone.

But, at least I understand the problem, now, in the dead of winter, all I can do is think about it.[/color]

I feel (and share) your pain.  It's been unseasonably cold here, so I too am just thinking about the cure!  Good luck. 

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