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Kyle Harris

Architectural Statement
« on: January 08, 2011, 02:36:56 PM »
I read this statement from a noted architect.

Agree? Disagree?

"The great trees which correctly influence play on classic courses are positioned "between shots," that is between the tee and the landing area or between the landing area and the green. This is a concept often lost on today's architects."

JESII

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #1 on: January 08, 2011, 02:50:49 PM »
Agree 100% for architectural purposes, but a nice tree by the tee in the event you're waiting is great as well.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #2 on: January 08, 2011, 03:19:47 PM »

Kyle

Oh Hell, idiots who think that Golf means Trees.

Yet there is a slight problem with that – golf was developed on a links environment and alas the trees could not take the strain (salt) so we find our Links courses devoid of trees.So in the beginning NO TREES -  Ops.

Seems to F@*k that argument but then how do you define Classic as we still are trying to define the Golden Years.

Trees have no place on a golf course,  design content of mature trees is zero as we cannot predict their growth pattern – so is it the Keeper of The Greens or the Architect who gets the credit for the interface of the mature tree? It’s just too Hit & Miss to be part of a design, unless we name God as an associate designer.

Melvyn

JR Potts

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2011, 03:28:25 PM »
The comment that trees don't deserve to be on golf courses really flies in the face of your anti-manufactured golf philosophy.  See, if trees weren't allowed on golf courses, 70% of the United States wouldn't have access to golf.  Further, if an area wanted to introduce golf to the woodlands, they would have to deforest hundreds of acres of trees.

Is that what we want?

Trees might not exist in your world of golf - but for me, a guy who is looking out his office window at thousands of mature trees, I find your comment quite preposterous.

JESII

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2011, 03:30:42 PM »
Ryan,

You must not have been paying attention...Melvyn wants golf reserved for where it was invented only, the Scottish linksland...or was it Holland?

Kyle Harris

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2011, 03:32:45 PM »

Kyle

Oh Hell, idiots who think that Golf means Trees.

Yet there is a slight problem with that – golf was developed on a links environment and alas the trees could not take the strain (salt) so we find our Links courses devoid of trees.So in the beginning NO TREES -  Ops.

Seems to F@*k that argument but then how do you define Classic as we still are trying to define the Golden Years.

Trees have no place on a golf course,  design content of mature trees is zero as we cannot predict their growth pattern – so is it the Keeper of The Greens or the Architect who gets the credit for the interface of the mature tree? It’s just too Hit & Miss to be part of a design, unless we name God as an associate designer.

Melvyn


Melvyn,

While I understand your sentiment there are plenty of salt-tolerant trees like the Black Pine, Scots Pine and European Larch that are found on linksland. Is it your contention that no links golf was played around these trees through history?

I don't like the term golden age. It implies our best days are behind us and I do not buy that premise, so don't attempt to argue it going forward, please.

Ryan:

Melvyn's argument seems to fall within the famous "nae links, nae golf" attitude found at the turn of the 20th century as golf first started to really move inland. I would prepare for the counter that a wooded site should not have a golf course placed on it.

Architects like Willie Park, Jr. of Musselburgh were key in bringing the nature of the links inland. Park's work at Philmont North in the Philadelphia area was noted for being on an extremely difficult site with many mature trees and there was apparently some arm-twisting on the part of Philmont to get Park to use the entire portion of the property available to him for the North Course in 1922.

Mike_Young

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2011, 03:46:42 PM »
I disagree.....While there may be trees that influence play either today or in times past.....trees are still temporary and I just don't see how one can design a tree into the long term strategy of a hole unless he has a way to change that strategy when the tree dies.....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

JC Jones

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #7 on: January 08, 2011, 03:50:46 PM »
I disagree.....While there may be trees that influence play either today or in times past.....trees are still temporary and I just don't see how one can design a tree into the long term strategy of a hole unless he has a way to change that strategy when the tree dies.....

What if the tree is already dead?  The tree on the 3rd at Old Mac looks dead in pictures, perhaps not.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Kyle Harris

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #8 on: January 08, 2011, 03:50:57 PM »
I disagree.....While there may be trees that influence play either today or in times past.....trees are still temporary and I just don't see how one can design a tree into the long term strategy of a hole unless he has a way to change that strategy when the tree dies.....

What if the trees are managed and replaced in much the same way that turf is, just on a longer scale?

Young trees are planted in nearby locations such that when the older tree is finally bereft of life, the new tree is there to replace the designed purpose.

Mike_Young

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2011, 04:02:10 PM »
I disagree.....While there may be trees that influence play either today or in times past.....trees are still temporary and I just don't see how one can design a tree into the long term strategy of a hole unless he has a way to change that strategy when the tree dies.....

What if the trees are managed and replaced in much the same way that turf is, just on a longer scale?

Young trees are planted in nearby locations such that when the older tree is finally bereft of life, the new tree is there to replace the designed purpose.

JC
If someone wants to do it then that's their gig.....I just disagreed that's all....

Kyle,
Whatever....seems lke a pain and you are asking for mismanagement of trees from members ignorant to why the trees were there etc....
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mac Plumart

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #10 on: January 08, 2011, 04:14:42 PM »
I am not an expert, but I've found from time to time that clever use on trees can make holes/courses all the more interesting.







Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

mike_malone

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #11 on: January 08, 2011, 04:21:56 PM »
  Classic architecture generally used trees for doglegs. This makes sense to me and I think it is what the statement refers to. Trees just before the green or at the tee that come into play destroy architecture.
AKA Mayday

Mike_Young

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 04:22:28 PM »
Mac,
I have been trying to cut the tree in that picture since day 1 ;D

I'm not saying one can't have interesting trees on a hole but I think you have to ask yourself if the tree can work if the tree ever goes away....JMO
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 04:43:54 PM »
Mike...

I like what you have to say...the hole needs to work with or without the tree.  Good stuff!

FYI...I like that tree at Longshadow! 
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 05:18:54 PM »
That concept of between landing areas isn't lost on me. 

Those kinds of trees are the ones (if large enough) that force a fade or draw.

Trees in the LZ simply penalize and usually force a sideways chip.

Trees JUST beyond an LZ may force the shot to that LZ to one side of the fw or the other since they are too close to fly over or even around.

There is a place for each.

Melvyn,

When golf was invented on the shores, the USA was still a colony. Do we need to go back to that, too?

Things change and we live to tell the tale. Even TOC changes.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #15 on: January 08, 2011, 05:43:41 PM »

Ryan

Trees do not have a place on a golf course, in my humble opinion and I have given my reason
“design content of mature trees is zero as we cannot predict their growth pattern – so is it the Keeper of The Greens or the Architect who gets the credit for the interface of the mature tree? It’s just too Hit & Miss to be part of a design”.

AS for your comments,
The comment that trees don't deserve to be on golf courses really flies in the face of your anti-manufactured golf philosophy.  See, if trees weren't allowed on golf courses, 70% of the United States wouldn't have access to golf.  Further, if an area wanted to introduce golf to the woodlands, they would have to deforest hundreds of acres of trees.

Is that what we want?

You stupid boy is my first response to such BS, just grow up as everything is not black or white. Trees do exist, its just closed and ignorant minds that do not seem to be able to work it out for themselves. Trees can be located well out into the rough, they can be located in any other position as long as it’s not on the fairway or line of play.

Jim
You said
You must not have been paying attention...Melvyn wants golf reserved for where it was invented only, the Scottish linksland...or was it Holland?

Jim, IMHO there is very little to say as you clearly have not read many of my post on this site, hence you keep make fundamental errors.
   
Kyle
I can only comment on links course that I know and mention trees if they come in to the line of play.
AS for Golden Age, well looks bleak for the immediate future, as we seem to have forgotten or going away from the traditional game for the easy life of little effort golf. Pity as golf should be anything but easy. Probably a cultural thing I expect.

As for inland courses and going inland in the 20th Century. Sorry Kyle, but they were around in the 19th Century, some being the private courses of the Earls and Landed gentry years before being converted into a club. Plus Council owned sites, places like Perth North Inch, Tarland, the Earl of Aberdeen, Ladybank and Cupar in Fife Newtonmore, Strathpeffer Spa plus many more in Scotland. Trees plentiful and courses built and played upon form the 1840 onwards. It was not an invention of the late 19 or 20th Century guys, but then it’s the way some approach the design of a golf course, looking for a site against perhaps a site fit for purpose. Different cultures and criteria I suppose.

I do not like trees on the line of play, they are IMHO a distraction rather than a hazard and distractions are just a pain, in the same way as Island Greens – pointless and have the ability to slow play drastically not to mention add any interest.

Jeff

What is this, am I not entitled to an opinion. I am not presenting opinions of others be they dead or alive just MY OPINION, trees are the joker in the pack and offer not initial design input only coming into play as mods or as they grow which could well be years after the death of the designer. Who would not have been certain of the actual trunk or branch profile and how it would interface with the course design. It had no part in the early design and may cause problems with said design as it matures. Is this your type of GCA, its not mine so hense my comments.

Melvyn 

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #16 on: January 08, 2011, 05:52:54 PM »
Melvyn,

Never said you weren't entitled to an opinion.  I am just agreeing with those who say as golf migrated to different treed areas, it is more practical and natural to have courses with trees, despite how golf may have started.  Had it started in a country with jungles, I would not argue against someone having built Pebble Beach.

As to the problems with trees, they exist, but with proper design, don't have to, or can be modified, with chain saw if necessary. 
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Jaeger Kovich

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #17 on: January 08, 2011, 05:57:40 PM »
I read this statement from a noted architect.

Agree? Disagree?

"The great trees which correctly influence play on classic courses are positioned "between shots," that is between the tee and the landing area or between the landing area and the green. This is a concept often lost on today's architects."

Seems to me this statement from noted architect really isn't saying anything at all. Apparently trees which incorrectly influence play are found in the landing area/turning point on par-4s and behind greens.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #18 on: January 08, 2011, 06:03:20 PM »
Jeff

Inland courses existed before they were exported, trees were a know factor in the 19th Century - I just do not like trees as I love links courses. Lets not forget one tree on the fairway or near a green drinks drinks snd drinks water, forget a branch getting in the way there are other problems that we get from trees and even that one small tree.

Have a great day golfing

Melvyn

Jeff_Brauer

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #19 on: January 08, 2011, 06:06:54 PM »
Melvyn,

You are right about how much soil moisture trees take, yet most US cities have tree ordinances requiring them, and at the same time, water conservation ordinances for turf.  Go figure.  Yeah, the trees do provide shade and oxygen, but at a cost.  I have stated here a few times that the thing that will get folks on the tree removal bandwagon will be the need to water them (or the turf to compensate) so heavily.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_Young

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #20 on: January 08, 2011, 08:06:49 PM »
Mike...

I like what you have to say...the hole needs to work with or without the tree.  Good stuff!

FYI...I like that tree at Longshadow! 

Mac,
I like the tree as it loks off the tee but strategically it penalizes the guy that tries to place the drive down the right side and go for the green yet if a guy bails out to the left he has a much better chance of working around the tree....again..just one way to do it.... ;)
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Scott Warren

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2011, 01:14:49 AM »
NO trees on links, Melvyn? None? Nada?

The 10th at Dornoch:


Hillside:


St Enodoc:


Burnham & Berrow:

Duncan Cheslett

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Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2011, 03:22:39 AM »
IMO, the aesthetics of a golf course are one of the most important elements of its architecture. When i play golf I want it to be in beautiful surroundings with dramatic backdrops.

For me, that means mountains, hills, and/or trees. I've not played enough links courses to have become an afficianado, but those that I have and those that I have seen pictured in detail here generally do not inspire me - barren, wild, windswept terrain simply does not float my boat.

I'm not too sure about having trees directly in the line of fire, but having fairways weaving their way between wooded areas to a green framed by mature broadleaf trees satisfies my aesthetic desires. Give me an Augusta over a St Andrews any day...


...or maybe I just like trees! :)


Kyle Harris

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2011, 08:17:45 AM »
Is the consensus that the statement means trees directly in the line of fire?

I think the statement speaks of where the trees should influence the shot, i.e. in the air or in the landing zone.

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Architectural Statement
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2011, 08:33:47 AM »
Warren you said

NO trees on links, Melvyn? None? Nada?

The 10th at Dornoch:

Hillside:

St Enodoc:

Burnham & Berrow:


Perhaps you can give me an informed guess as to the current age of the trees? Planted before or after the courses were designed?



Kyle

I again say "trees are the joker in the pack and offer not initial design input only coming into play as mods or as they grow which could well be years after the death of the designer. Who would not have been certain of the actual trunk or branch profile and how it would interface with the course design. It had no part in the early design and may cause problems with said design as it matures. Is this your type of GCA, its not mine so hense my comments."


Melvyn