Is now the perfect time for a public course to

[Patrick_Mucci]

undertake an upgrade ?

I was recently talking to an old friend whom I hadn't seen in a number of years.

He informed me that he tendered his resignation to a club he's belonged to for 30+ years.

He lives less than 5 minutes from that club.

I asked him why he left.

He indicated that the club had gotten very expensive and that it had significant debt.
And, that he wasn't playing as often as he used to.
(Age can do that to you)

And, that there were a good number of public access courses within a half an hour to an hour's drive from his home.

Other friends were members of Shackamaxon, which is experiencing membership problems, some members are leaving, some are applying to other clubs.

The more I thought about it, the more I came to realize that existing club memberships are shrinking, that more and more long time members are leaving.  Leaving for a variety of reasons, mostly financial, but leaving nonethheless.

But, these people are golfers.  Golf is a huge part of their life, something they've been doing for 10, 20, 30 and 40 or more years.

When the one fellow mentioned the names of the public access clubs within a half hour to hour, I began to think, that a really terrific public access course would be very attractive to the significant number of golfers who are leaving their clubs, and, there are plenty of clubs in the Northern NJ area.

Then, I thought of Essex County West, a Tillinghast, Raynor, Banks design, where I had played my first 18 hole round in the mid to late 50's.  Much of AWT's, SR's and CB's work has been lost, but, what a great opportunity to reclaim it.

And, the timing would seem to coincide with what appears to be a mass membership exodus from nearby private clubs.

ECW sits in a densely populated area, in West Orange, NJ, so it has the demographic to attract and support play.
It's got the pedigree.
It's got interesting topography.
All it needs is a restoration/revision to make it a "destination" club for Northern NJ and beyond.

While it doesn't have the location and the demographic, The Knoll would also seem to be an attractive target for restoration/revision.

Would this be the opportune time to restore/upgrade a golf course in a heavily populated area ?

What would you do to attract play ?

[Mike Sweeney]

All this stuff is very situational. I forget the statistic but something like 80% of golf rounds played are within 20 miles of one's house. Somebody can correct me.

If a couple of privates in the area are teetering on the edge, the higher end golfers will go there if they convert to public.

In the new golf world, the lines of public and public are obviously blurry. Pine Needles (public resort) just implemented a membership program that sold out from what I hear from a member. Privates are now letting societies more and more onto their courses. Stationers had quite a line-up last year:

http://www.sgagolf.net/course.html

The Creek
Sleepy Hollow Counrty Club
The Connecticut Golf Club
Plainfield Country Club
Sunningdale Country Club
Rockrimmon Country Club
Knickerbocker Country Club
The Whippoorwill Club
GlenArbor Golf Club
Fairview Country Club
Metropolis Country Club
Quaker Ridge Golf Club
Westchester Country Club
   
Again it is all situational and evolving. The last six months have been much better for me in business and I never played less golf. I don't think that will change much for me for 2-3 years as the world plays catch up.

[Michael Whitaker]

All this stuff is very situational. I forget the statistic but something like 80% of golf rounds played are within 20 miles of one's house. Somebody can correct me.

If a couple of privates in the area are teetering on the edge, the higher end golfers will go there if they convert to public.

In the new golf world, the lines of public and public are obviously blurry. Pine Needles (public resort) just implemented a membership program that sold out from what I hear from a member. Privates are now letting societies more and more onto their courses. Stationers had quite a line-up last year:

http://www.sgagolf.net/course.html

The Creek
Sleepy Hollow Counrty Club
The Connecticut Golf Club
Plainfield Country Club
Sunningdale Country Club
Rockrimmon Country Club
Knickerbocker Country Club
The Whippoorwill Club
GlenArbor Golf Club
Fairview Country Club
Metropolis Country Club
Quaker Ridge Golf Club
Westchester Country Club
   
Again it is all situational and evolving. The last six months have been much better for me in business and I never played less golf. I don't think that will change much for me for 2-3 years as the world plays catch up.

The cost of the outings, ranging between $375-$495. OUCH!!!

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Michael,

Depending on the dues structure, that might be a bargain in the NY area for that line up of courses.

Does the 500 include your guest or is it per person?

[Tim Martin]

Michael,

Depending on the dues structure, that might be a bargain in the NY area for that line up of courses.

Does the 500 include your guest or is it per person?

G Walsh-That is per person. At that price it is a no brainer for the host club.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Pat,

I agree with your comments completely and it is a BIG reason why I have been such a big believer in our effort to restore Cobb's Creek.  The course has a prime location in the city, right next to the affluent suburbs which have long been the stomping grounds of the country clubs.  Not only is it a short drive from the Main Line but it is also right on the public transit system so that you don't have to battle the traffic from Center City and college kids/juniors can easily stop by.

A fully restored Cobb's would have the architectural pedigree of it's private club competition at a fraction of the cost and in a more convenient location for most.

I'd like to think the next frontier is not more remote courses but rather restoring or redoing metropolis area courses that will be open to all.  You might even grow the game in the process which is a novel concept to some...

[Mike Cirba]

Patrick,

Just to expand on what Geoff said, one of the biggest limiting factors to the growth in the game is "time".   

Courses built further and further from major metropolitan centers do little to make the game accessible.   

A renaissance and revitalization of the older public courses near major populations, coupled with affordable, thoughtful rate structures that encourage junior and women and couples and nine-hole play could fuel a rebirth of interest in the game that would be in the best interests of those hoping for long-term stabilization of number of golfers and rounds, and perhaps even help facilitate modest growth.

[Mike Sweeney]

The cost of the outings, ranging between $375-$495. OUCH!!!

You are going to love it here!

Mike C and Geoffrey,

Do you have any idea of how many rounds Cobbs is doing now? Financially, how would a restoration help them?

[Mike Cirba]

Mike Sweeney,

Yes, I do.   

Let's just say that nobody is making any money at present.   

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
Sounds nice in theory, but the practical outcome would be one of creeping gentrification.

I read somewhere that the two Cobb's Creek courses do upwards of 70k rounds per year, at $40.00 or less per. The one you mention in NJ has similarly priced fees and I imagine that it sees +35k rounds per year.

Throw a few mil into these places and the fees go up 20 or $30 per round. It could even surpass $40 a round because a good portion of the clientele they now serve will be forced to go elsewhere ( if  they can even find a place to go) and the shortfall in players will necessitate a continuing rise in fees.

I only see it as a good idea if state golf associations, in conjunction with the USGA, created some type of a strings-attached grant program that would offer an urban course the chance to improve without raising its rates above standard inflation.

[Jason Topp]

Our club has lost a significant contingent to an upscale public course.  They save a lot of money and still enjoy the camradarie of their group.  They also do not have to worry about paying for our big clubhouse. 

[Adrian_Stiff]

Jason there is no doubt that the big house is a big money burner, some clever people are forgetting you join a golf a club to play golf. If I was building another course, I'd effectively have no clubhouse and run everything with the most minimal staff possible. I think with no clubhouse (perhaps a large pro-shop that just concentrates on snacks and beverage) you can really cut the staff levels. Too many have multiple managers and assistant mangers leeching out the dollars.
Im not sure any course should be upgrading at the moment, if you upgrade you are likely to up the charge and possibly the very reason you might be doing okay. I have been saying this for a long time and keep getting picked up on it but the better courses are the ones more likely to be in more trouble. Their market is shrinking more than the $25 P&Ps.

[Terry Lavin]

Patrick,

Your last question is the most provocative.  "What would you do to attract play?"

The biggest obstacle to play is not the architectural bona fides of a club/course.  The biggest obstacle to play isn't whether the club is in pristine shape or whether it needs to be spiffed up.  The biggest obstacle isn't whether the club is public or private, resort or muni.

The biggest obstacle is the lack of disposable income.  Yesterday there was a report that American corporate profits are at an ALL TIME HIGH.  Repeat:  AN ALL TIME HIGH.  They are sitting on trillions of dollars.  Not borrowing and not investing.  Raking in money and stacking it up.

If any of you are waiting for the trickle down, don't hold your breath.  The new majority in our Congress is hell bent for leather to prove that the past two years of trying to dig out from the boulder that the prior administration rolled down the hill is the CAUSE of all of our economic problems.  The health insurance bill is hurting business, they say.  All we have to do is get rid of regulation, get rid of the health care insurance bill and help business make more money so they will invest in job creation.

Golf is way down the list of industries that will come around when the economy gets better.  It may never come all the way back.  To many, the game of golf seems awfully frivolous when one in 6 Americans is out or work and/or has given up looking for work.

It's the economy, stupid, as Clinton's campaign staff used to say.  I'm not claiming to have the answers, that's way above my pay grade, but until we get business in America to start doing something productive with their record profits, this industry will continue to suffer greatly.

[JESII]

Terry,

Who is that works for these companies recording "record profits"? Oh wait, it's us...

[Terry Lavin]

Terry,

Who is that works for these companies recording "record profits"? Oh wait, it's us...

No doubt, but all we hear is that government is tying the hands of business with regulation and legislation that is preventing them from job creation.  All we need is tax cuts, less regulation and backtracking on other legislation like health care reform and business will be able to do the things that create jobs and not just corporate wealth.

[Jud_T]

That's it.  Terry buys the first round of drinks for bringing up the P word...

[corey miller]

Golf will be fine in the long run, it is no more frivolous than drinking fine wine, I am told we have a President who enjoys both.  It will survive.

The biggest impediment to the public model (or upscale CCFAD) in the Metro NYC Area is time.  Time spent during a seemingly endless five hour round.  I don't think I know a present private club member who would continue to play under the conditions at most all area public access courses.

[Tom Dunne]

Patrick Mucci,

Interesting that you specifically cited Essex County West (now known as Francis Byrne) in the context of this thread as it actually has recently  been renovated, along with the two other county munis, Hendricks Field and Weequahic. Just yesterday I spoke to Ed Brockner, who managed the project out there (Stephen Kay and Doug Smith were involved on the design side as well). At Byrne they've got new irrigation and drainage, and every bunker has been rebuilt. It sounds like there's still lots of work to be done, but the county has committed a sizable amount of money to improving conditions at the three courses.

As a side note, I just want to mention that a lot of people talk a good game about affordable public golf, but Ed is one of the guys getting out there and actually making a difference. He was also heavily involved a few years ago in transforming the nine-hole Mosholu GC in the Bronx into Met NY's flagship First Tee facility. Now you can actually find a Biarritz in the Boogie Down. Pretty neat work on a tiny budget.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Golf will be fine in the long run, it is no more frivolous than drinking fine wine, I am told we have a President who enjoys both.  It will survive.

I have no doubt that the game will survive, the inherent lure is overpowering, but, in what form will it survive ?

The biggest impediment to the public model (or upscale CCFAD) in the Metro NYC Area is time.  Time spent during a seemingly endless five hour round.  I don't think I know a present private club member who would continue to play under the conditions at most all area public access courses.

Corey,

What I don't understand is the following.

Public Golf Courses are like restaurants, the higher the customer turnover, the greater the revenue.
Hence, waiters and management want to get more customers dining, thus the need to get them in and out as quickly as possible without them feeling pressured.

Shouldn't Public golf courses strive for the same type of turnover or fast play.

If play was reduced to 3:30 how many more customers would be accomodated on a given day, versus 5 hour rounds ?

And, wouldn't that make the game more enjoyable and more attractive ?
Thus increasing utilization, revenue and profit

[Ken Moum]

Golf will be fine in the long run, it is no more frivolous than drinking fine wine, I am told we have a President who enjoys both.  It will survive.

I have no doubt that the game will survive, the inherent lure is overpowering, but, in what form will it survive ?

The biggest impediment to the public model (or upscale CCFAD) in the Metro NYC Area is time.  Time spent during a seemingly endless five hour round.  I don't think I know a present private club member who would continue to play under the conditions at most all area public access courses.

I've had that discussion with a couple of public course managers and they're pretty much stuck on two points. 

1) They are more interested in how many groups they can cram onto the course during prime morning hours than how long it takes for those golfers to get off the course.

2) As long as the tee sheet is full they assume everyone is happy with the situation.

What has happened at the worst offender in my area is that the manager actually reduced tee time intervals to 7 minutes to make up for no-shows, and they still are busy as hell.  On a mid-season Saturday at about 10 a.m. you can sometimes find 12 people standing on the #2 tee, waiting for the hole to clear.

It remains popular because it is affordable, easy and very scenic....

K

Corey,

What I don't understand is the following.

Public Golf Courses are like restaurants, the higher the customer turnover, the greater the revenue.
Hence, waiters and management want to get more customers dining, thus the need to get them in and out as quickly as possible without them feeling pressured.

Shouldn't Public golf courses strive for the same type of turnover or fast play.

If play was reduced to 3:30 how many more customers would be accomodated on a given day, versus 5 hour rounds ?

And, wouldn't that make the game more enjoyable and more attractive ?
Thus increasing utilization, revenue and profit

[Buck Wolter]

The biggest obstacle is the lack of disposable income.  Yesterday there was a report that American corporate profits are at an ALL TIME HIGH.  Repeat:  AN ALL TIME HIGH.  They are sitting on trillions of dollars.  Not borrowing and not investing.  Raking in money and stacking it up.

If any of you are waiting for the trickle down, don't hold your breath.  The new majority in our Congress is hell bent for leather to prove that the past two years of trying to dig out from the boulder that the prior administration rolled down the hill is the CAUSE of all of our economic problems.  The health insurance bill is hurting business, they say.  All we have to do is get rid of regulation, get rid of the health care insurance bill and help business make more money so they will invest in job creation.

Golf is way down the list of industries that will come around when the economy gets better.  It may never come all the way back.  To many, the game of golf seems awfully frivolous when one in 6 Americans is out or work and/or has given up looking for work.

It's the economy, stupid, as Clinton's campaign staff used to say.  I'm not claiming to have the answers, that's way above my pay grade, but until we get business in America to start doing something productive with their record profits, this industry will continue to suffer greatly.

I'm guessing memberships in DC are still hard to get -- must be all that productivity in Washington

[Mike Cirba]

Jim,

The nubers you heard for Cobbs Creek are about 50 pct high.  Not sure where they came from but are way off the mark.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Mike,
I read those numbers in one of the Philly papers, back at the time of the Cobb's thread you(?( started.

[Craig Sweet]

All of these posts from Pat are pretty much singing the same tune....membership at private clubs is dwindling, and debt is rising.



Here is my take...people are not joining clubs for a number of reasons...the prestige of being a club member is not what it once was....today people look for other ways to show their status....people are finding many more ways to spend their money....people are finding many more ways to spend their time....and people leave for many of the same reasons..lack of money...lack of time...lack of interest....death or old age.

If the idea of membership in a club being something special is not dying, then it is certainly on the downward end of a cycle.

[Jud_T]

Shouldn't Public golf courses strive for the same type of turnover or fast play.

If play was reduced to 3:30 how many more customers would be accomodated on a given day, versus 5 hour rounds ?

And, wouldn't that make the game more enjoyable and more attractive ?
Thus increasing utilization, revenue and profit[/color]

Pat,

It's virtually impossible to get a public course with a full tee sheet around in under 4:30 in the states.  We have 1 course locally where the marshalls are like ruthless SS and you're still looking at weekend times around 4:30.  Slow play, lack of knowledge and etiquette, stroke play and slow play on golf on TV all contribute...