Lister 2: Top 10 Public courses within 100 miles of Philadelphia -no restriction

[Kyle Harris]

Since it's my day as lister, here's a less restricted list based strictly on my opinion of the architecture and golf course.

Cost and cart policy not a factor.

Only requirement is that I have to have played it AND would go back. No particular order, this is just my top tier.

Architects
Lederach
Seaview Bay
McCullough's Emerald Links
Inniscrone
Jeffersonville
Paxon Hollow
Cobbs Creek Olde
Reading CC
Galen Hall

[Wade Whitehead]

Kyle:

Have you played Glen Mills?  If so, why didn't it make the list?

Thanks.

WW

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Have you played Glen Mills?  If so, why didn't it make the list?

Thanks.

WW

I have not. It's probably the one glaring omission from my Philadelphia golf experience.

[Mark McKeever]

Kyle,

One more that comes to mind is Atlantic City Country Club.

Mark

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

One more that comes to mind is Atlantic City Country Club.

Mark

I've not been yet. How would you modify the list?

[Brad Tufts]

Hey Kyle,

Cool list...how bout Twisted Dune?  Never played MELinks, but I have heard its the cheaper but similar version...

[Kyle Harris]

Brad:

Twisted Dune is another cusp course for me. Since it's right across the street from MEGL and similarly priced this is one of the purer straight architectural decisions for me.

Twisted Dune is a fine layout, and I've played it recently. However, I don't find myself thinking about shots or holes there like I do MEGL. Twisted tends to run across the terrain with the dunes along the sides containing and in some cases posing a hazard on a dogleg. MEGL runs up and over dunes with little to no containment features. The hazards present themselves to the golfer along the centerline much more frequently and good shots are MEGL are separated more from bad shots than at Twisted Dune.

The stretch of holes at MEGL, 3-12, is as good as anything on this list.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

ME is fatally flawed because they ran out of good land and had to add such silly holes as the 15th and 16th across the street. They are totally out of character and remind me of the rubbish design stuff you see at the lowest of low levels at Grand Strand courses.

You also have a lam closer with the 18th.

Yes, there are a number of holes in the early stages of the round that are good but frankly the consistency and imagination for what was done at TD makes it a good bit beyond what ME provides.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

ME is fatally flawed because they ran out of good land and had to add such silly holes as the 15th and 16th across the street. They are totally out of character and remind me of the rubbish design stuff you see at the lowest of low levels at Grand Strand courses.

You also have a lam closer with the 18th.

Yes, there are a number of holes in the early stages of the round that are good but frankly the consistency and imagination for what was done at TD makes it a good bit beyond what ME provides.

What does out of character mean?

Why does this particular bit of out-of-character detract from the overall experience?

Why is the 18th a lame closer?

What makes a closer a good closer and a bad closer? How does the 18th not fit this bill?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Did you actually have your eyes open when you crossed the street to play #15 and #16 at ME ?

The holes were cramped into the tight acreage and all they needed was a few clowns and bowling pins. The holes before it had a constant theme and were nicely done by Kay. That is not what happens when you cross the street to play those two hideous holes.

The 18th is just a bombs away hole. The H20 has little real meaning -- it should have been cut much closer to the drive zone with the green positioned close enough to take away the impulse to hit away with little real concern. You also have one of the lamest greens with the closer -- a bit more contour and angle would have added to a closer that is reminiscent of the better short holes from the UK / Ireland which ME bases itself upon.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Did you actually have your eyes open when you crossed the street to play #15 and #16 at ME ?

The holes were cramped into the tight acreage and all they needed was a few clowns and bowling pins. The holes before it had a constant theme and were nicely done by Kay. That is not what happens when you cross the street to play those two hideous holes.

The 18th is just a bombs away hole. The H20 has little real meaning -- it should have been cut much closer to the drive zone with the green positioned close enough to take away the impulse to hit away with little real concern. You also have one of the lamest greens with the closer -- a bit more contour and angle would have added to a closer that is reminiscent of the better short holes from the UK / Ireland which ME bases itself upon.

Not only did I have my eyes open, I also had your own post ringing in my head the first time I played it. I guess I was disappointed when I actually found I enjoyed playing the holes and must have missed the clown's mouth in my mirth.

Do you have anything substantial to add to the discussion or is there more hyperbole to be expected? When is a 120-yard hole to a small, well-guarded green ever out of character? More importantly - what could have been done to improve the situation in your eyes?

As for the 18th being bombs away - The fairway/green look to be no more than five yards away from the edge of the fairway at it's farthest point. I think there is also significant advantage to taking a line closer to the water, especially with a wedge in my hand for the approach. A right hole location would be very scary from the left part of the fairway.

I also don't buy the premise. What should an 18th hole be, then?

[Dan Herrmann]

Golden Oaks up near Moselem Springs is pretty good.

I'd also add Bulle Rock and Pilgrims Oak for your consideration.

[Kyle Harris]

Golden Oaks up near Moselem Springs is pretty good.

I'd also add Bulle Rock and Pilgrims Oak for your consideration.

I've not played Bulle Rock and wish Beechtree were still around.

Pilgrims Oak is okay, and I played it on Monday for the second time but I don't think I'd put it above Iron Valley, for example.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Agree with you Pilgrim's is not superior to Iron Valley.

Likely you would hate Bulle Rock -- because it doesn't have the sameness of a Galen Hall and Middletown. You know the repetitious short pitch shots to greens time after time.

Dan:

Nice call with Golden Oaks -- but a top 10 without a price limit would not likely include it.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Here's what you are missing on ME.

The WHOLE THEME of the place is to instill holes and shots that have tie ins to what you see with the top tier places from the UK and Ireland, to name just two spots. The 15th and 16th have NOTHING in common with that. Nada. Zilch, Big zero.

They are crammed into that corner of property and frankly are low level imitations of the sort of dogfood you see when playing the bottom basement stuff that attempts to call itself golf in the Grand Strand, FL areas. A better routing scheme would have kept the course in some form of consistency in terms of its presentation. They don't do that at all.

How difficult would it have been to create a real quality short par-3 akin to the postage stamp hole at Troon ? Ditto for the lame short par-4 hole 15th which allows for iron shots to be hit over the trees to the green itself.

If you think a wedge shot to the 18th at ME is in serious jeopardy -- then frankly your wedge game needs a serious overhaul. I have seen people routinely hit driver or 3-metal either on or just in front of the hole and the H20 never bothered them a bit. Cutting the H20 closer into the drive zone -- along with ramping up the pedestrian green would have added a good bit more.

Kyle, ME has a number of good holes -- Kay did a solid job with the Lido 7th hole there. That concept of quality imitation holes should have been carried through to the conclusion. It wasn't and the course suffers a major hit bacsue of it in my mind. TD -- right down the street is a far more interesting and consistent design for range of shots encountered and diversity of holes.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I've seen people hit plenty of shots in the water on that hole. Guess what - that's golf. The plural of anecdote is not data and I'd say that the water is very much on golfer's minds. Drop the ad hominem arguments from here on out, please.

I do not feel the tee shots at Twisted Dune carry nearly as much value and urgency as those at MEGL. The same criticism you are attempting to levy on the 18th at MEGL could be levied at a large number of holes at Twisted Dune, especially as one gets into the second nine on holes like 11, 15 and 18. Just bomb away with little regard for challenging the hazards or dunes and find a straight-forward approach. What I feel that Twisted Dune is ultimately lacking are tee shots like the 3rd or 6th at MEGL, where not only do the bunkers influence the line taken off the tee AND the club selection, but their placement insists they be dealt with in some form at some point.

On the whole, MEGL is a very convex golf course, Twisted Dune is a very concave one.

Would the holes at MEGL across the road be better in your eyes if the trees between them were removed? From what I'm getting, that could be the only thing that's really detracting from the holes in your mind.

Is the shot in 16 that much more different than the postage stamp? I mean, the green is tiny, you're going at it with a wedge and the thing is surrounded by bunkers that are designed such that it is possible to roll into them from the green.

[Sven Nilsen]

Well George, its obvious you picked the wrong person to be Lister 2.  One should know that anything within 100 miles of the Garden State is under Matt Ward's purview.
 

[Joe Bausch]

Well George, its obvious you picked the wrong person to be Lister 2.  One should know that anything within 100 miles of the Garden State is under Matt Ward's purview.
 

By Sven I think you've got it!

 

[Mike Cirba]

Kyle/Matt/All,

I'm enjoying this discussion...wish I had more time to tyoe but good job. Guys!

Hope to add some more thoughts this weekend.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Kyle,

No love for Bucks County?  Et tu, Brute?

In all seriousness, I would consider the following:

Glen Mills
Hominy Hills
Scotland Run
Atlantic City CC

Oddly enough, if cost were a consideration, Bethlehem Municipal might inch into my Top 10.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

No love for Bucks County?  Et tu, Brute?

In all seriousness, I would consider the following:

Glen Mills
Hominy Hills
Scotland Run
Atlantic City CC

Oddly enough, if cost were a consideration, Bethlehem Municipal might inch into my Top 10.

Geoff:

I wondered if anyone would bring up some other candidates in the ABE area. Allentown municipal gets some chatter.

PS: Middletown IS in Langhorne or do you not make the trip down 413 all that often?

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

I would love to let a Gil or a Kelly loose on Middletown CC with a hefty budget and see what they could turn into.  There are some awful holes but it is an interesting piece of property.

Makefield is a cusp course that frankly doesn't get as much attention as it probably should.  If the pace and service were better, it would generate more buzz.

I had a blast playing a raw Ross 9 holer just outside of Quakertown for less than 10 dollars, but I always forget it's name.

[Kyle Harris]

Geoff,

What are the awful holes at Middletown?

I can think of.... two candidates, and would gladly debate you on the one.

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Kyle,

I'm a little sketchy on the hole numbers because I stopped playing there shortly after I moved to Newtown but here goes...

1 - what better way to keep things moving than a blind approach to the first green.  I remember three and four group back-ups on the first tee as a result and almost saw two people beaned on the first green.

2 - could be a great hole but the fairway looks like the first at Bethpage and I don't mean the conditioning.  Far too narrow for the average golfer but otherwise a good hole if they could restore the width.

17 - I couldn't disagree more... You could try the back tee if you swing like Allen Doyle but the last time I was there it was literally under tree limbs and next to a chain link fence.  From the next tee up this Par 4 is probably 220? And you can easily fly all the trouble in the fairway.

I also wasn't a fan of a short par 4 with a split rail fence directly behind the green.  I believe it may have even had trees down the left that caused some trouble on the tee shot.  The hole was under 300 yards.

The reason I stopped going to Middletown was the conditioning, pace of play, lack of a range and design quality.  For those that don't know, I live 10 minutes from the course.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

I'm a little sketchy on the holes because I stopped playing there shortly after I moved to Newtown but here goes...

1 - what better way to keep things moving than a blind approach to the first green.  I remember three and four group back-ups on the first tee as a result and almost saw two people beaned on the first green.

2 - could be a great hole but the fairway looks like the first at Bethpage and I don't mean the conditioning.  Far too narrow for the average golfer but otherwise a good hole if they could restore the width.

17 - I couldn't disagree more... You could try the back tee if you swing like Allen Doyle but the last time I was there it was literally under tree limbs and next to a chain link fence.  From the next tee up it is probably 220? And you can easily fly all the trouble in the fairway.

I also wasn't a fan of a short par 4 with a split rail fence directly behind the green.  I believe it may have even had trees down the left that caused some trouble on the tee shot.  The hole was under 300 yards.

The reason I stopped going to Middletown was the conditioning, pace of play, lack of a range and design quality.  For those that don't know, I live 10 minutes from the course.

The conditioning improved dramatically over the past decade. Trees have been removed. Greens roll true. I remember back in 1999 the place was in terrible shape when we played it in high school but those days are long gone. I've been back once or twice a month over this past summer.

You're spot on correct about the second, by the way. I disagree about the first, it has everything GCA supposes itself to like. The backups are remedied if you wait until the first group gets to the green to tee off like you're really supposed to on any first hole.

PS: Did you know the original first played from where the pool is now to just behind the second tee?

I don't understand the lack of affection for the 11th or 17th. Both are the par 3.5 holes with severe greens that require well executed aggressive shots at the green or well considered lay ups to attack the significantly sloped greens, which in the case of the 17th green falls away from the line of play from a VERY high left side. If you're above either hole when the greens are quick - it will take three to get down, easily.

I think all the tree issues you've mentioned (except for the arboretum on the second) are no longer issues.