additions to Doak's 12 10's?*

[Mac Plumart]

Peter...

maybe this is a place to start:  http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,45250.0.html

[Peter Pallotta]

Thanks, Mac. I remember that thread, and I also re-read the words of one who knows: "no one call tell you -- you have to go and find out for yourself".

Peter

[JC Jones]

It's been tried here over and over again in various posts and thread over the years, but I still think there's a wonderful essay to be written on what makes for a rare and truly exceptional golf course (a "10" in other words).  To borrow a word from another thread, I'd imagine that those courses would, by definition, have something of the transcendant in them (not only in the sense that they surpass in architectural quality other and highly qualified contenders, but that they also express something higher than even that Quality itself). But how this transendance is manifested and experienced is the question worth exploring.  Maybe one day, many, many years from now, I might be better equipped to try to write it myself.  

Peter  

I think you should write that essay because I think it would be quite good.

Mac,

I think you should write the next confidential guide.  I think you have the energy and the passion see the number of golf courses required to take on such a project.  Just keep me on the short list of those who would receive a manuscript.

[Kevin Pallier]

St. Andrews (old)
Pacific Dunes
Whistiling Straits
Bandon Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Friars Head
Old Sandwich
Kinloch
Kingsley
Chambers Bay
Calusa Pines
Colorado Golf Club
Bayonne
Bandon Trails
Dallas National
Kingsbarns
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Nine Bridges
Nanea
Kauri Cliffs
Oitavos Dunes

Mac

A few probable others off the top of my head ?

Rock Creek
Lost Farm
Old Macdonald
Castle Stuart

[Mac Plumart]

Kevin...

Nice pick up.  I just went right down the Top 100 lists and those courses you mention are ranked yet.


JC...

It will be out within 5 years, just like I mentioned.  Of course, it won't be a rip off of the Confidential Guide...it will be my own deal, but nevertheless 5 years or less.  Y'all have been warned!!   

[Ally Mcintosh]

As to Ian and Jim's question, I would have to think about it for a while.  My tastes have certainly evolved, but I would probably not change a rating in The Confidential Guide because of that ... an upgrade or a downgrade would have to involve either changes to the course, or a second look under better circumstances.  

As far as your own ratings go, the two courses in Ireland I'd be most interested in seeing what you thought of on a second visit would be The Island and Carlow, mainly because you gave them both 3's previously.

I can't recall whether you rated any of the other Irish inland courses but Carlow for me is perhaps the best of the bunch. It hasn't changed significantly since your visit.

[BCrosby]

It's been tried here over and over again in various posts and thread over the years, but I still think there's a wonderful essay to be written on what makes for a rare and truly exceptional golf course (a "10" in other words).  To borrow a word from another thread, I'd imagine that those courses would, by definition, have something of the transcendant in them (not only in the sense that they surpass in architectural quality other and highly qualified contenders, but that they also express something higher than even that Quality itself). But how this transendance is manifested and experienced is the question worth exploring.  Maybe one day, many, many years from now, I might be better equipped to try to write it myself.  

Peter  

Peter -

I too hope you will write that essay. You aren't the first to ask the question. Low, Haultain, Darwin, Browning, Behr, Simpson, MacK, Updike and others also asked that question (or something like it) and they came up with a wide range of answers. From the get-go, golfers have had higher aspirations in the transcendence quadrant than is normally expected from a sport.

One of the marks of modernism is that we seem to have given up those sorts of aspirations for the game. Or, worse, we take them to be silly, embarrassing. Updike is so striking because he was one of the few of our era who unabashedly recalled all of that. But there was a time when such dreams were frequent themes in golf writing. Which suggests that they were also things people were thinking about back in the day. We can use more of it today, so I'm counting on you.

Bob    

[Brett_Morrissy]

Kevin:
"Insert Quote
Quote from: Mac Plumart on 09 January 2011, 01:01:47
St. Andrews (old)
Pacific Dunes
Whistiling Straits
Bandon Dunes
Ballyneal
Sebonack
Friars Head
Old Sandwich
Kinloch
Kingsley
Chambers Bay
Calusa Pines
Colorado Golf Club
Bayonne
Bandon Trails
Dallas National
Kingsbarns
Cape Kidnappers
Barnbougle Dunes
Nine Bridges
Nanea
Kauri Cliffs
Oitavos Dunes

Mac

A few probable others off the top of my head ?

Rock Creek
Lost Farm
Old Macdonald
Castle Stuart
>>>

KP
have you played Rock Creek?

[Tom Yost]

I believe published in 1996...

Ballybunion (old)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Merion (east)
Muirfield
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (west)
Shinnecock Hills
St. Andrews (old)

I count twelve. 
??

[Niall Hay]

 believe published in 1996...

Ballybunion (old)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Merion (east)
Muirfield
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (west)
Shinnecock Hills
St. Andrews (old)

"I count twelve"

me too....and are these the correct 12 "Doak 10's"? Is there an official list?

[Michael Dugger]

believe published in 1996...

Ballybunion (old)
Crystal Downs
Cypress Point
Merion (east)
Muirfield
National Golf Links
Pine Valley
Pinehurst #2
Royal Dornoch
Royal Melbourne (west)
Shinnecock Hills
St. Andrews (old)

"I count twelve"

me too....and are these the correct 12 "Doak 10's"? Is there an official list?

You guys are missing Royal County Down

[Niall Hay]

So including RCD that is the accurate Doak 10 List? 13 of them?

[Tom_Doak]

There were only a dozen 10's in the book.  I assumed the title of the thread included Sand Hills, because I've said I would give it a 10 today, even though it was only a 9 in the book, too.  (It had barely opened at the time of publication, and in the private edition, I wrote it up before it was complete, so I couldn't give it a 10 then.)

Royal County Down was a 9, and a very good one. 

[Niall Hay]

I thought that there had been discussion on here about the fact that RCD was a 9…..so 12 total. Period. Thanks for the clarification.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Tom - okay Barnbougle is no 10 in your mind, how about PacDuns?  Many many people out there would have no problem adding one or both of these world gems to their personal "10"s - me included. 

I know some very well traveled raters who refuse to give ANY course a "10" arguing "if I do so I'm setting the bar for perfection."  Always leaves me scratching my head... "so you've played St Andrews, PVGC, CPC, Merion, NGLA, Melbourne, etc etc and refuse to recognize any of them as tens???"  Seems like that only introduces a bias into the resultant averages.

You too?  Can you, in your own mind, build a ten?

J

[PThomas]

There were only a dozen 10's in the book.  I assumed the title of the thread included Sand Hills, because I've said I would give it a 10 today, even though it was only a 9 in the book, too.  (It had barely opened at the time of publication, and in the private edition, I wrote it up before it was complete, so I couldn't give it a 10 then.)

Royal County Down was a 9, and a very good one. 

sorry bout that !

[Sean Leary]

Surprised RCD isn't a 10. I love Pacific Dunes but can't say its better than RCD...

[Brad Tufts]

I suppose a point is deducted from RCD for the slight letdown over the last three holes?

Good holes, but not as good as the previous 15.  They did fix #16 and make it 370 as opposed to 270 (I played tees at about 290 the one day I was there).