[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Is it worth it for me to drive two hours one way, play golf for 4 hours (depends on pace of play) and then drive another two hours back to play the Knoll? That's an opportunity cost of 8 hours plus the $44-$86 out of state green fee.

Compare that to Jeffersonville which is at most 45 minutes from most anywhere around Philadelphia with a green fee that does not exceed $45 and is usually in the $20-30 range for most of the day.

Reading is an hour out, with a cost around $45 peak and it's one of the best golf courses in terms of pace of play I've ever been on.

You do realize that people have to spend time and money in order to play the golf courses you rate, correct? And that these factors are amongst the decision points for most golfers? That's why this is an opportunity cost based list. Does The Knoll represent a fine place to play for someone like you who is A: A New Jersey Resident and B: I'm assuming within a 45 minute drive, yes. Would it rate higher than most of my list with that in mind? Yes.

As for Cobbs, it is a hope type course sure. You hope you stay below the hole. I'm telling you I rate it high because the greens are great and keep me coming back.

I think you're missing the point of this exercise. It's not comprehensive, it's not tell-all. Those things are impossible no matter how many golf courses you play. It's meant to be a personal look. That's why George started this whole concept.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
Thanks.

Not mentioned by you, but, I have played Honeybrook. How does it rank among the publics in the area?

Another cusp My Top 10 course. Joe Bausch and I talked about it the other day. I really do enjoy it and will get back as soon as I can.

Olde Homestead and Island Green by Jim Blaukavitch are there too.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Who are these "Pennsy Boys" who don't want cross the river?  I think I've played about 98% of the public courses in the Garden State, and I think Kyle's list only suffers by title.   I think it should be called something like, "Best Value Public courses within 100 miles of Philly based on affordability, architecture, and walkability", but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

Are you working for the NJ Dept of Tourism these days?    

That title doesn't fit, but is the entire premise here. That's why there is my explanation in the first post.

[astavrides]

I think the list should be titled, 'my favorite 10' rather than 'Top 10'., especially given your lists preferences for old, short and quirky, rather than championship caliber tests.

I prefer every course on your list of NJ courses that you haven't played yet to everything on your list except for Jeffersonville.  I haven't played Reading though.

You should try Mercer Oaks East as well.  Fast and firm, linksy and interesting, especially the front 9, 13 and 14.  Not sure what it costs now, but in 2009 topped out at $52 weekend, $26 for in county.  West course isn't bad either, just more straightforward.

Cart is included in all Morgan Hill rates as well.  Can't imagine wanting to walk it anyway.

[Kyle Harris]

I think the list should be titled, 'my favorite 10' rather than 'Top 10'., especially given your lists preferences for old, short and quirky, rather than championship caliber tests.

I prefer every course on your list of NJ courses that you haven't played yet to everything on your list except for Jeffersonville.  I haven't played Reading though.

You should try Mercer Oaks East as well.  Fast and firm, linksy and interesting, especially the front 9, 13 and 14.  Not sure what it costs now, but in 2009 topped out at $52 weekend, $26 for in county.  West course isn't bad either, just more straightforward.

Cart is included in all Morgan Hill rates as well.  Can't imagine wanting to walk it anyway.

It's included, but the cart fee is listed and subtracted accordingly.

It is a bear to walk.

Does championship caliber trump short and quirky necessarily in terms of "Top?" All lists are subjective, even the magazine lists.

I would imagine that sort of thing should be implied. I appreciate the questions as to why I omitted something as opposed to what should be included. For example, if this list included private courses - the so-called bias to short and quirky would be gone.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

C'mon -- no one seriously walks Morgan HILL

Your list simply overdoses on a similar type theme layout  -- with an emphasis on greensites and frankly any real sophisticated or comprehensive shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown are essentially similar type courses. You just don't have the depth of visits to provide some sort of real balance. No doubt it's YOUR list and YOUR opinion. But Kyle you need to get out more -- try heading east of the river to see what I have said. Happy to hear your take AFTER you have played them. By the way take I-95 across the Delaware and you can pocket the $4 -- put it to your gas bill.

Kyle, The Knoll has been touted here SEVERAL TIMES. Do yourself a mega / huge favor and try to wrap your arms around the rightful fanfare the course generates. Too bad Pat Mucci isn't watching this thread that closely because he would no doubt chime in. Ditto George Bahto. The Knoll was rated among the top 40 courses in the USA back in its heyday.

You also seriously undervalue the proper role of conditioning. I don't expect The Knoll or Cobbs Creek to sport ANGC turf. But Cobbs Creek suffers because the lack of conditioning fails to shine critical light on what the design can be. I applaud your wishful thinking on Cobbs Creek but until it can get its act forward on a consistent basis -- your inclusion is more hope / dream than anything else. The comment that the greens are "great" is when they have consistency in terms of roll and presentation. Kyle, I like the course but it still trails the likes of The Knoll now.

You are right it's not a tell-all listing. It's yours. But keep in mind that comments are part and parcel of this site and when you post something it's fair game to comment. Playing the fullest range of courses does matter and I believe when you play the ones I took the time top mention you will find your listing will indeed be amended accordingly.

Mike:

Yeah, Chris Christie found out about GCA and forwarded me a few bucks to shill for Jersey !

The idea that Jersey doesn't have value and quality designed layouts is a myth. I recommended quite a few of Kyle has been
a no show -- thus far -- at plenty of them. From my vantage point he overdosed on the Keystone stuff. No doubt his prerogative but he needs to get out his mapquest and start adding a few more experiences.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

C'mon -- no one seriously walks Morgan HILL

Your list simply overdoses on a similar type theme layout  -- with an emphasis on greensites and frankly any real sophisticated or comprehensive shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown are essentially similar type courses. You just don't have the depth of visits to provide some sort of real balance. No doubt it's YOUR list and YOUR opinion. But Kyle you need to get out more -- try heading east of the river to see what I have said. Happy to hear your take AFTER you have played them. By the way take I-95 across the Delaware and you can pocket the $4 -- put it to your gas bill.

Kyle, The Knoll has been touted here SEVERAL TIMES. Do yourself a mega / huge favor and try to wrap your arms around the rightful fanfare the course generates. Too bad Pat Mucci isn't watching this thread that closely because he would no doubt chime in. Ditto George Bahto. The Knoll was rated among the top 40 courses in the USA back in its heyday.

You also seriously undervalue the proper role of conditioning. I don't expect The Knoll or Cobbs Creek to sport ANGC turf. But Cobbs Creek suffers because the lack of conditioning fails to shine critical light on what the design can be. I applaud your wishful thinking on Cobbs Creek but until it can get its act forward on a consistent basis -- your inclusion is more hope / dream than anything else. The comment that the greens are "great" is when they have consistency in terms of roll and presentation. Kyle, I like the course but it still trails the likes of The Knoll now.

You are right it's not a tell-all listing. It's yours. But keep in mind that comments are part and parcel of this site and when you post something it's fair game to comment. Playing the fullest range of courses does matter and I believe when you play the ones I took the time top mention you will find your listing will indeed be amended accordingly.

Mike:

Yeah, Chris Christie found out about GCA and forwarded me a few bucks to shill for Jersey !

The idea that Jersey doesn't have value and quality designed layouts is a myth. I recommended quite a few of Kyle has been
a no show -- thus far -- at plenty of them. From my vantage point he overdosed on the Keystone stuff. No doubt his prerogative but he needs to get out his mapquest and start adding a few more experiences.

Matt:

Others can vouch for this but I almost always mention The Knoll as a must-play in North Jersey strictly because of it's reputation. It's simply not worthy of a drive out of Philadelphia for the cost and time required to invest as compared to other options. I'm not saying it isn't a good golf course. I'm not saying I won't play it and won't want to go back, but it's low on the decision tree and requires a desire for an extraordinary effort to play golf. One akin to the desire to go to Bethpage for a day, not as a way to spend a casual afternoon of golf.

What the heck is comprehensive shotmaking? You mean to tell me there aren't a variety shots, strategies and options at either Middletown or Galen Hall? I heartily disagree there. Just because the shots aren't dictated by bunkers but instead some rather wild and interesting terrain (especially in the case of Galen Hall) doesn't mean that a premium isn't placed on shotmaking. Galen Hall and Middletown require something of the golfer that is very near and dear to my heart - to hit a shot against the natural tendency of the lie. In other words, at more than one point in the round the golfer is asked to hit a high fade into a green requiring a draw and vice versa. The severe right-to-left cant of the 4th fairway at Middletown is a prime example. The green demands a hooking shot to hold and not trundle down into the oblivion along the right side. Losing the shot right is a good way along the way to a six or higher while succeeding with the shot will give the golfer a great crack at 3.

Both Galen Hall and Middletown also feature a variety of half-par holes where the success tee shot, or the decision made on the tee shot, dictates which half of the par will be won. Play the eleventh or seventeeth too aggressively and miss the shot and a four or five will be hard fought.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

You need to check out what your Governor mentioned about a certain mindset that exists - when they cancelled the Eagles football and he correctly derided the wussie attitude. My God -- you have not played a representative sample of Jersey courses and have simply hunkered down in your comfortable Phillie environment.

You say The Knoll is must play for its "reputation." You are right -- the reputation is well deserved because of the architecture that is present. More than happy to go toe-to-toe and go over each and every detail about the course if you care to do it.

You mention about the drive -- your premise was under 100 miles and under $100. Then you added the caveat about whether something is worthwhile for the time of the drive.

Kyle, stay on the other side of the Delaware and live in blissful ignorance.

Kyle, you have ODed on the short and fairly same-oh / same-oh type courses. There isn't any real diversity in terms of shotmaking. Your prejudice towards a certain type of course is showing -- look what Doak did with his 31 best courses in CG -- plenty of variety and presentations.

What I did say about Galen Hall and Middletown is not that they don't offer something of value but that because you have failed to play a much fuller range of courses your listing could have been much better -- unfortunately, you see a trip to Jersey akin to Marco Polo traveling to and from the Orient. Like I said take the I-95 connector by Scudder Falls and you can save the $4.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

You need to check out what your Governor mentioned about a certain mindset that exists - when they cancelled the Eagles football and he correctly derided the wussie attitude. My God -- you have not played a representative sample of Jersey courses and have simply hunkered down in your comfortable Phillie environment.

You say The Knoll is must play for its "reputation." You are right -- the reputation is well deserved because of the architecture that is present. More than happy to go toe-to-toe and go over each and every detail about the course if you care to do it.

You mention about the drive -- your premise was under 100 miles and under $100. Then you added the caveat about whether something is worthwhile for the time of the drive.

Kyle, stay on the other side of the Delaware and live in blissful ignorance.

Kyle, you have ODed on the short and fairly same-oh / same-oh type courses. There isn't any real diversity in terms of shotmaking. Your prejudice towards a certain type of course is showing -- look what Doak did with his 31 best courses in CG -- plenty of variety and presentations.

What I did say about Galen Hall and Middletown is not that they don't offer something of value but that because you have failed to play a much fuller range of courses your listing could have been much better -- unfortunately, you see a trip to Jersey akin to Marco Polo traveling to and from the Orient. Like I said take the I-95 connector by Scudder Falls and you can save the $4.

Matt:

Considering I just spent 10 weeks this fall driving from Elkins Park, PA to New Brunswick, NJ daily, I found your comment a little ironic to say the least. I've sat in that Scudders Falls traffic way more than anyone should want to.

I haven't ADDED criteria in response to your opinions, they were there from the very beginning. That's what opportunity cost means. It's been there from the beginning and was the whole premise of this thread.

As for the lack of variety... really?

Morgan Hill
McCullough's
Inniscrone
Reading

Four very different types of golf course in very different settings. 40% of the list.

I'd say that Middletown and Galen Hall share similarities and perhaps Reading and Jeffersonville. But with all respect, my list reflects a range of yardages from under 6000 to just under 7000, a range of par values from 68 to 72 and are all located on very different types of terrain with very different shot requirements. You're also neglecting the internal variety of places like Galen Hall, which features three different eras of architecture.

The fact is, there's only room for 10 on this list and the list is primarily dedicated to value. Therefore, places like Makefield Highlands and Scotland Run are pushed to the cusp and rightfully fall just outside the top ten. Neshanic may have a horse in this race but I haven't seen the third nine there so I can't make a qualified statement, yet. Same goes for any of your suggestions.

What I'm starting to actually question is just what "doing my homework" means in terms of how to qualify a rating. I've played all these golf courses at least ten times. Am I more qualified to speak of them than someone that has played once or twice? Am I less qualified to state their value if I haven't experienced every else? I don't know. But I could counter that someone not spending enough playing time at one place is an equally unqualified opinion.

[astavrides]

I'd probably put wyncote and charleston springs (both north and south, but preference to north) ahead of more than half those courses as well.

[Kyle Harris]

Alex,

Wyncote... Wyncote...

I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.

Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.

Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).

[astavrides]

Alex,

Wyncote... Wyncote...

I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.

Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.

Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).

Inniscrone's actually probably my favorite one on your list. 
You have a complicated formula that you never quite stated.  Do I have to rank wyncote against Inniscrone because they point in the same geographical direction from philly?
I submit deerfield as well for consideration.

[Kyle Harris]

Alex,

Wyncote... Wyncote...

I just don't know. If I'm driving out there, I don't think Wyncote is enough to take me away from Inniscrone.

Remember, this isn't just a rating of architectural quality. It's a value judgment as well.

Is Inniscrone not your cup of tea? (Can certainly understand that, it draws as much criticism as it does praise).

Inniscrone's actually probably my favorite one on your list. 
You have a complicated formula that you never quite stated.  Do I have to rank wyncote against Inniscrone because they point in the same geographical direction from philly?
I submit deerfield as well for consideration.

It's more... how does the decision manifest itself? Do you drive past Inniscrone from Philadelphia to play Wyncote? What's the ten round test between them?

[Karl Bernetich]

Kyle,

   Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?

Mike,

I actually missed it in the shuffle, but no, I've not played either.

Odessa is on my radar, however, as the picture I've seen are appealing. Statistically I'll get to Springfield with Bausch sooner or later. I also need to get to Deerfield and Scotland Run.

I was gonna ask about Deerfield -- Joe's a big fan.  As I am too.  Deerfield is a really nice track.  Please give me a heads up if you venture down here.  Thanx,  Karl

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

If anything Inniscrone is one your best original choices. Has plenty to offer and is more than just one short hole following another.

Let's get back to the debate shall we -- your Jersey listing -- even in your own mind -- is lacking. You should have simply stated a listing of courses 50 miles or closer to Phila and those that are $50 or less. That would cut out the Jersey element that you don't have.

You favor the short type course where greensites are the major emphasis point. You have failed to include courses where driving the ball is important and where longer approach clubs will need to be used. So be it -- for you.

I have provided a range of value oriented courses and those that offer a wider array of terrain styles and hole choices. Of course, you would not know that since your portfolio is tied to a much narrower range and base.

You need to play the likes of the different courses I mentioned -- Hominy Hill is one the better RTJ courses and has had the goods to host both the men's and women's public links nationalevents. Why do I say that? It's important for certain courses to show their strength against superior shotmaking skills and not be worthy simply becauise they test Joe Sixpack types.

Ocean County at Atlantis shows the style and flavor of George Fazio and the holes there are still worthy of note.

Kyle, your homework is complete for the courses YOU HAVE ACTUALLY PLAYED -- not for the full range of other courses that I included that are value orineted, within the 100-mile radius and are quite special for the range of styles and designs they provide.
Yes, I have also played the courses I mentioned no less than two times and in a number of cases more times than that. It's Ok to have an incomplete listing - I simply added a plethora of courses that can easily meet and even surpass what you have played from the limits you have placed upon yourself. Enjoy ...

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

I think you may be right regarding the 50 mile limit, at least towards New York City. I think you'd agree that many of the courses you're listing are in areas that are more easily accessed from New York City and it's New Jersey suburbs.

That's sort of the point of this exercise - it's meant to be Philadelphia-centric and for anyone in Philadelphia and South Jersey, it's difficult to get to New York City. It's a lot easier for a Philadelphian to drive to Reading or Lancaster than the Oranges, don't you agree?

But I don't agree with your assessment of my list. Are not Inniscrone, MEGL, and Morgan Hill courses that fit the length bill? That's 30% of my list. You criticized it for lacking variety? Did you mean to say they weren't a variety of 7000 yard courses? If you're missing the variety and range of different golf experiences this list offers - I just don't understand how you choose to evaluate golf courses.

You also do understand that if I were to include the private courses in this, your statement would become laughable.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

We live in the Northeast -- depending upon time of day and whatever Mother Nature throws at you - it's possible a simple 10-mile journey can be a real pain to do.

You included the under 100 miles threshold and I simply added the Jersey ones that would fill out your list. You then meekly backpedal and whine about traffic issues and the like.

Last I checked -- you didn't say anything under 100 miles and nothing north of Mercer County, NJ.

Morgan Hill is not a long course and frankly doesn't have the par-4 holes of note -- save for the 6th which is good. The rest are usually plunging downhill. ME is also not a long course by any real definition.

Kyle, go play Hominy Hill -- go play any of the other key Monmouth County courses such as Howell Park or the 36-hole complex at Charleston Springs. Architect's Club is very good once you get to the 5th hole. If you have not played Hominy Hill your portfolio of top tier public courses for under $100 is woefully short.

You also included Cobbs Creek as your "hope" course -- the place has potential but it's still miles away from getting there. I hope that everything can be done there but lets not confuse potential with actual reality shall we. The Knoll West is a superb layout and has been nicely restored / upgraded by the work of George Bahto.

I also included the likes of a range of architects from Roy Case at Sea Oaks, to George Fazio at Ocean County at Atlantis and then with the likes of such other very good courses like Vineyard at Renault. Heck, I can make a case for the Gordon duo who did the likes of Buena Vista.

Kyle, before you throw me under the bus -- you need to play a wider sample before weighing in with a DEFINITIVE listing. And, more importantly, before saying I'm out of touch -- you need to look in the mirror and see it more clearly. Just some things to consider -- I presume your mind is open to that possibility.

Last item -- the topic was about public courses -- if you wish to include the private ones I'm just as ready to discuss.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt:

Final points.

This was never meant to be a definitive listing.

I stated from the get-go this was an opportunity cost rating. If you don't know what opportunity cost means go back to Econ 101. I even explicitly cited a case involving driving from the get-go. There was no backpedaling.

I would be well-served to see more, you are correct. When you hosting?

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

When you make a listing you need to realize you will be challenged. You could have -- a long time ago I might add -- have simply said that a few places I have mentioned you have not played and given my range of experiences it's possible -- maybe even more than that -- that such places would be included.

For some reason your car has an inability to sample a broader range of courss that lie east of the Delaware. I simply tried to help your own lack of plays at such courses. Your response is indicative of a desire to think otherwise.

Kyle, my play schedule is open for the summer of 2010 -- happy to assist and show you what I believe you would enjoy playing. Trust me the folks on the other side of the Delaware don't bite.

[Sean_A]

Kyle

I like your triple edge of value, 100 miles and crucially, driving by a a loved/quality course to play another.  True, this puts an extra random onus on location, but it helps to clarify just what you like and why.

Ciao

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Value doesn't enter into the equation for me. The weekday senior rates are very manageable. I've developed a mini rota for public play-Jeffersonville,Lederach and Heron Glen in NJ(a 45 minute ride) do it for me. I venture over to Glen Mills (another 45 minute ride) a few times a year where the senior rates are $55 before 11am M-W. Sometimes I venture over to Riverwinds in NJ to meet friends from NJ. I will venture to Berks County to play Reading and Berkleigh occasionally. Hershey Links is worth the trip,especially when it's free when you sign up for their birthday club.

Kyle,

Have you played Heron Glen?

[Matt_Ward]

Steve:

Great choice in Heron Glen -- the Dan Schelgel layout gets little fanfare but is more than just good -- it's a shade behind the likes of the heavy hitter taxpayer-owned layouts in the Garden State and given my appreciation of places like Hominy Hill in Colts Neck that is saying something.

[archie_struthers]

 

Hey Kyle I'm not really into lists but you cut me to the quick saying McCullagh's Emerald Links is better than Twisted Dune. Even though it's price subsidized (lol) and cheaper to play , Twsted continues to get far more rounds ,so I'm not totally biased in this opinion.  

I'd change some things at Twisted if given the chance ( eg I don't like the way the 17th hole turned out, but other than having a lot more quirk do you really think the golf course is better at McCullaghs?  

[Matt_Ward]

Heron Glen deserves more attention than many other courses. Best thing is that it's near enough to the Pennsy line for Keystone folks to play it without a second mortgage to play.

[John Shimony]

I had never heard of Heron Glen which I regret because I automatically give the treeless or mostly treeless courses a chance once I discover them.   I consider the best around to be McColloughs and then after that I do not have a preference.

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