[Kyle Harris]

As for Berkleigh vs. Galen Hall I've long been a champion of Galen Hall. What are the dog holes at Galen Hall? I can't really think of one that wouldn't have features that compare with similar at Berkleigh? 13 and 16 at Galen Hall are bland to some with some absolutely killer putting surfaces.

I've played Berkleigh once, and don't remember much about the holes around the clubhouse. As I mentioned to you the other day, I'm certainly looking to go back and can definitely be swayed on subsequent playings.

You're right in that the 14th is outstanding, as are 2 and 4. The 5th and the 8th don't do much for me but they aren't terrible either. I need to get back there.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Thanks for that info Kelly.
A couple friends of mine played there in the fall, paid around $50.00, and said they walked.
I'm glad to hear they weren't pulling my leg, and were using theirs.

Kyle,
I could understand your position if they disallowed walking, but that's not the case. If the rates at Lederach are in line with the others on your list and the architecture is at par or better then it's as Jay suggested, the cart is a 'freebie'.

Of course, you don't have to play there if you feel ripped off, but the course seems like an excellent value for walkers or riders. My friends thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'll have to save your list for future reference if I get down that way. Thanks
  

  

[Kyle Harris]

Thanks for that info Kelly.
A couple friends of mine played there in the fall, paid around $50.00, and said they walked.
I'm glad to hear they weren't pulling my leg, and were using theirs.

Kyle,
I could understand your position if they disallowed walking, but that's not the case. If the rates at Lederach are in line with the others on your list and the architecture is at par or better then it's as Jay suggested, the cart is a 'freebie'.

Of course, you don't have to play there if you feel ripped off, but the course seems like an excellent value for walkers or riders. My friends thoroughly enjoyed it.

I'll have to save your list for future reference if I get down that way. Thanks
  

  

Jim:

We'll assume that $37 is a walking rate, no cart. As per the posted 2011 rates, this is the weekday after 3PM rate.  

My analysis would then go to this way. The nearest courses in the area on the list would be Jeffersonville and Reading CC. At the same time (3PM on a weekday) I could walk Jeffersonville for $22 as per the 2010 rate (this will probably go up in 2011). That's almost two rounds at Jeffersonville for every round at Lederach.

Jeffersonville is a shorter walk and probably an equivalent or slightly less golf course architecturally. HOWEVER, does almost two rounds at Jeffersonville equal one round at Lederach? Most golfers have limited time and money - that decision is a no-brainer to me. The kicker then comes with the peak rates. Lederach's is north of $70 while Jeffersonville's is around $40.

But, personally, without the cart-required policy. (Call it what you want, if you're charging me for it, you're subtly requiring it. Who would pay for something they did not want if it weren't required to use it?) Lederach definitely makes this list even with the opportunity cost criteria.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Thanks for your listing -- takes a bit of courage to post on GCA with specifics.

Now allow me to add a few comments.

Brigantine Golf Course - if the list included courses with the most mosquitos then Bigatine would be a sure fire winner. A laugh out out loud when the official names for the course is Brigatine Golf "Links" -- certainly a stretch if there ever was one.

Let me also say McCullough's is a good choice save for the fact that the two holes across the street are completely out of character and the closing hole is as lame as one gets.

A better choice would have been either of the three NJ courses ...

Sea Oaks -- top rate is $105 so it's just on the other side -- but that rate only applies on weekends / holidays during the compressed summer months -- other times it's below.

Ocean County at Atlantis -- one of the earliest George Fazio designs and gets little attention from many here. Has more to it than a few of the layouts you mentioned.

Vineyards Golf at Renault Resort is anoither layout that has the goods to be mentioned.

Kyle, your work is very much Pennsy related and save for the likes of Morgan Hill really doesn't have the goods -- I'll give you a pass on Jeffersonville because of your affinity for the place.

Lederach should be a candidate and Iron Valley, as previously mentioned, is also a good choice.

You also missed out on thelikes opf Hominy Hill in Colts Neck and The Knoll in Boonton which is under 100 miles away from Phila and under $100 too.

Looks like a bit of personal homework is needed.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Thanks for your listing -- takes a bit of courage to post on GCA with specifics.

Now allow me to add a few comments.

Brigantine Golf Course - if the list included courses with the most mosquitos then Bigatine would be a sure fire winner. A laugh out out loud when the official names for the course is Brigatine Golf "Links" -- certainly a stretch if there ever was one.

Let me also say McCullough's is a good choice save for the fact that the two holes across the street are completely out of character and the closing hole is as lame as one gets.

A better choice would have been either of the three NJ courses ...

Sea Oaks -- top rate is $105 so it's just on the other side -- but that rate only applies on weekends / holidays during the compressed summer months -- other times it's below.

Ocean County at Atlantis -- one of the earliest George Fazio designs and gets little attention from many here. Has more to it than a few of the layouts you mentioned.

Vineyards Golf at Renault Resort is anoither layout that has the goods to be mentioned.

Kyle, your work is very much Pennsy related and save for the likes of Morgan Hill really doesn't have the goods -- I'll give you a pass on Jeffersonville because of your affinity for the place.

Lederach should be a candidate and Iron Valley, as previously mentioned, is also a good choice.

You also missed out on thelikes opf Hominy Hill in Colts Neck and The Knoll in Boonton which is under 100 miles away from Phila and under $100 too.

Looks like a bit of personal homework is needed.

Yes, I've not played any of your alternate suggestions - this list is dynamic and simply reflects my habits and affinities.

As I recall, you've not been to Jeffersonville or Reading, correct?

Are you saying Inniscrone doesn't deliver the goods?

[Mark McKeever]

Why did you leave Berkleigh off the list?

Good call Kelly.  Forgot to mention Berkleigh.

mark

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
I'll hazard a guess that there are less expensive courses on your list that are equally as good or perhaps even better than Lederach. What I asked was if there are courses in line with Lederach's cart-inclusive rates, and are there any on your list that charge more?

What does it matter if the cart-inclusive price is a subtle requirement? Good architecture and walking are your concerns, but if you receive as good of a value for monies spent at Lederach as you do at some of the others on your list, and you are still able to walk, the policy has little bearing on the equation.

Value is also a personal perception, and if you feel 'taken' by forking over for a cart you don't want then that's that. I also don't think it's quite fair to a course to disallow their best possible rates from the mix while comparing the best possible rate from another. If Lederach has times when it is a 'bargain' then that would be the times I would choose to play it, and I would look for the best bang for my prime time buck elsewhere.

[mike_malone]

 Kyle,

   Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
I'm hazard a guess that there are less expensive courses on your list that are equally as good or perhaps even better than Lederach. What I asked was if there are courses in line with Lederach's cart-inclusive rates, and are there any on your list that charge more?

What does it matter if the cart-inclusive price is a subtle requirement? Good architecture and walking are your concerns, but if you receive as good of a value for monies spent at Lederach as you do at some of the others on your list, and you are still able to walk, the policy has little bearing on the equation.

Value is also a personal perception, and if you feel 'taken' by forking over for a cart you don't want then that's that. I also don't think it's quite fair to a course to disallow their best possible rates from the mix while comparing the best possible rate from another. If Lederach has times when it is a 'bargain' then that would be the times I would choose to play it, and I would look for the best bang for my prime time buck elsewhere.

I'm with you, but I have the right to not give patronage to those places. I try to get back once a year, but will never be a regular patron so long as they do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it. I feel the rate structure is a step in the process of eliminating consumption choices i.e. the choice is made for me. So long as other places offer me the choice in how I spend the money, I'm fine.

Why not add a more needed item like a sleeve of golf balls for an additional $12? Golf ball selection is as much a personal choice as whether or not one walks or rides in my opinion.

Golf is a value proposition, and this is what I value.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,

   Are you pulling a Cirba/Moriarity/Paul/MacWood on me and refusing to answer my questions?

Mike,

I actually missed it in the shuffle, but no, I've not played either.

Odessa is on my radar, however, as the picture I've seen are appealing. Statistically I'll get to Springfield with Bausch sooner or later. I also need to get to Deerfield and Scotland Run.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Never said Inniscrone was a bad choice -- but there are a number of others you have failed to see.

Way to many I might add.

Hominy Hill is a superb Trent Jones course. Your affinity for Cobbs Creek is noted but frankly Cobbs has miles and miles to go in order to be successfully presented. It's a dream pick by you and should do a good bit more internal work before being selected. A place like The Knoll (a Banks design) is already ahead of it in my mind.

I gave you pass on Jeffersonville because you really like it and I have not played it.

I have a few friends of mine who have played Reading and were not overly impressed -- certainly not beyond their likes for the Jersey-related courses I mentioned.

Kyle, don't be afraid to cross the Delaware because Pennsy public golf -- save for the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach, plus one or two others at best, is really a number of steps behind Jersey.

One other note -- I believe SR in Williamstown, NJ is above the $100 threshold. If not-- it most certainly should be included.

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle:

Never said Inniscrone was a bad choice -- but there are a number of others you have failed to see.

Way to many I might add.

Hominy Hill is a superb Trent Jones course. Your affinity for Cobbs Creek is noted but frankly Cobbs has miles and miles to go in order to be successfully presented. It's a dream pick by you and should do a good bit more internal work before being selected. A place like The Knoll (a Banks design) is already ahead of it in my mind.

I gave you pass on Jeffersonville because you really like it and I have not played it.

I have a few friends of mine who have played Reading and were not overly impressed -- certainly not beyond their likes for the Jersey-related courses I mentioned.

Kyle, don't be afraid to cross the Delaware because Pennsy public golf -- save for the likes of Morgan Hill and Lederach, plus one or two others at best, is really a number of steps behind Jersey.

One other note -- I believe SR in Williamstown, NJ is above the $100 threshold. If not-- it most certainly should be included.

Matt,

The question of this rating is:

Is The Knoll worth the drive out of Philadelphia over all those other places? This is based on OPPORTUNITY COST, so if I'm driving all the way up to Parsippany to play, The Knoll's experience must overcome the cost of the drive and time as well.

I certainly appreciate and understand your suggestions, but your analysis falls short if you haven't actually seen or played Reading, Jeffersonville, Galen Hall or Middletown.

I'll give you my New Jersey list that I know I need to play, how does it sound?

Heron Glen
Scotland Run (though expensive)
The rest of the Neshanic Facility
Hominy Hill
Royce Brook
The Knoll
Sea Oaks
Ballamoor
Seaview Pines

[mike_malone]

 It is interesting how we think of "Philly" golf. As one heads in the direction of NYC the distance from Philly shrinks versus other directions .

[Kyle Harris]

It is interesting how we think of "Philly" golf. As one heads in the direction of NYC the distance from Philly shrinks versus other directions .

I agree.

I think it's because it's a lot more difficult to drive 50 miles toward New York City than it is to drive 50 miles toward Harrisburg.

[Matt_Ward]

Kyle:

Here's what you started with --

ANY public course within 100 miles of Phila -- isn't that right ?

And they needed to be less than $100 at peak times -- right ?

Those were YOUR conditions.

Now you are adding the time and cost to get there.

Are there other unsaid qualifiers you wish to add?

Kyle, look -- you need to do some serious Jersey homework -- your list is Pennsy-centric -- must have some fear in crossing the Delaware.

The Knoll is one of the finest Bank courses and if you check the history you'll see it was highly touted by a great many people -- no less than Dave Marr, among others, had it among their personal top ten. Hominy Hill is easily beyond just about any of the name courses you mentioned. The one gem you did mention Inniscrone is quite good and has something to rave about.

Cobbs Creek is a work in progress -- but it has miles to go before people start including it as a bonafide gem. Years of neglect and a failure to provide serious $$ is evident there. I like the course but it being promoted as being current and contemporary and a worthy peer to the others mentioned is truly presumptious on your part.

I have played Galen Hall and Middletown and frankly the names of the key Jersey players I mentioned is ahead of them.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

From my still un-edited first post. What isn't clear?

"My rankings reflect an opportunity cost rating, meaning these courses typically win out over their neighbors when traveling from Philadelphia. (ie Why play Ravens Claw when one can drive a little further and pay a little less for a better golf course at Reading Country Club?)"

I didn't add that, it's still in the first post.

As for the old PennylVANIA vs. New Jersey thing. I don't agree. There's plenty of character over here. Shell out the $4.00 and cross the river more.

PS. I like Cobbs Creek because the greens are lights out difficult. Short-side yourself or get on the high side of one and you're dead. No question. Conditioning is also way down on my list of criteria for judging. Golf course maintenance is simply a question of getting the right mind and the money spent correctly. It's not architecture.

It's clear you and I see different things in golf courses, which is just fine. I'm more than happy to seek out anything you suggest though. I believe that every golf course should be played at least twice.

[Terry Lavin]

All I can say is the next time I get within 100 miles of Philly during golf season, I ain't going public!

[Kyle Harris]

All I can say is the next time I get within 100 miles of Philly during golf season, I ain't going public!

You'd be missing a lot. ;-)

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
As I said in a previous post, I'm not trying to change your opinion.

Just for the record though, can you answer my earlier question which asked if any of the other courses you chose (including the ones that don't allow walking at certain times) are more expensive to walk than Lederach?

...and you are the first walker that I've ever heard say this: "....they (Lederach) do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it."    

[John Foley]

I'll second Renault Winery course - very underrated

What about Twisted Dune?

[Kyle Harris]

Kyle,
As I said in a previous post, I'm not trying to change your opinion.

Just for the record though, can you answer my earlier question which asked if any of the other courses you chose (including the ones that don't allow walking at certain times) are more expensive to walk than Lederach?

...and you are the first walker that I've ever heard say this: "....they (Lederach) do not encourage walking in some form outside of merely permitting it."    

McCullough's Emerald Links is probably close. I think it's around $75 to ride on a weekend.

[Matt_Ward]

John F:

TW is just above $100 in the peak summer weekend and holidays -- but otherwise below it and should be mentioned.

Good call on that front !

Kyle:

It's nice to create lists from the limited number of courses you have played.

You say you don't agree about my PA v NJ discussion but it's laughable because you have not done
anything close to serious homework to tell me I'm all wet given the quality NJ layouts I have played.

By all means -- knock yourself out.

However ...

Your homework is not complete in my mind.

You Pennsy boys have an aversion to believe that golf exists on THE OTHER side of the Delaware.

The so-called "character" design argument is amusing because I named no less than half a dozen courses -- likely can add a few more -- that easily surpass the eight ( courses on your list that I have played.

Kyle, Cobbs Creek is a "hope" type course. I can "hope" that the powers that be will get off their collective duffs and do something. Since you have not played The Knoll -- correct me if I am mistaken -- but the Banks course here in Jersey is already there and is delivering. It's pedigree is no less than Cobbs Creek. Anyone not making the trip and then proclaiming better public courses that are under the 100 mile and 100 dollar threshold is again taking an "incomplete grade" on the subject.

By the way -- I have played each of the courses I have mentioned twice -- in some cases way more than that. Ditto for the eight ( Pennsy courses you have mentioned.

Kyle, Pennsy public golf is more behind than you imagine (although hats off to Moran for Morgan Hill and Lederach) -- put some gas in the tank, wipe off the GPS unit and play the ones I mentioned. When you finish the assignment -- I'll be more than happy to weigh seriously at that time the pros and cons.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Kyle,
Thanks.

Not mentioned by you, but, I have played Honeybrook. How does it rank among the publics in the area?

[Mike Cirba]

Matt,

Who are these "Pennsy Boys" who don't want cross the river?  I think I've played about 98% of the public courses in the Garden State, and I think Kyle's list only suffers by title.   I think it should be called something like, "Best Value Public courses within 100 miles of Philly based on affordability, architecture, and walkability", but that doesn't exactly roll off the tongue.

Are you working for the NJ Dept of Tourism these days?    

[Mark McKeever]

I can't swim, thus I get nervous crossing bridges.

Mark

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