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John_Conley

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The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« on: February 18, 2002, 07:38:25 PM »
Has anyone played the course near Orlando that plays like a Scottish links?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

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Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2002, 07:50:12 PM »
John, I guess you're not talking about the New Course at Grand Cypress, right?

See you Friday at Southern Dunes, looking forward to playing with you.  I'm taking a lesson Tuesday or Wednesday!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #2 on: February 18, 2002, 08:25:30 PM »
John,

Yes, I did, and don't really understand a lot of the criticism of it.

Yes, there are certain holes that don't work on any level, such as having to clear the "burn" fronting the green with a long-iron on the 8th, and the par threes are mostly pretty weak, but...

There are quite a number of superb holes, the width and bunkering schemes are very much like TOC, and I think Nicklaus has been given a bad rap for what I feel is a very solid attempt to create something rather different.  Interestingly, the courses does not feel at all incongruous on a former flat orange grove, and I would certainly want to play it again.  

Now, if they could only find a way to bring in 50 degree temperatures and lots of wind.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Will E

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #3 on: February 18, 2002, 08:46:19 PM »
I'm guessing that this is a trick question.
The obvious answer of the New Course at Grand Cypress can't be what you're thinking of, right John?

I'll echo Mike's comments of really enjoying myself there, and I have played it in some nasty conditions. I didn't find the Nicklaus design features here that I thought I would. (high cut not always required)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #4 on: February 18, 2002, 09:19:45 PM »
I just played Grand Cypress-New for the 4th time in a decade - more than any other modern course in Orlando.

From a links purist's standpoint, it's overdone, the greens too severe, too many water hazards too close to greens without support behind (8th, 10th greens are absurd). But hey, this is Florida, it was a dead-flat cirtus grove, and I think that they achieved a lot given that the other course on the property was that poster-child for 1980s dysfunctional excess, Grand Cypress North/South.

New course has wide fairways, lots of neat hidden bunkers, wacky chipping areas, and it's a joy for upper handicappers while not that easy for good players to score upon. Plus despite its excessive green fee, it costs less than flying over to Scotland to play. Plus you gotta love the faux 1st/18th combo. Has the stone bridge, the white wooden fencing, the fairway contours and Valley of Sin. All that's missing is the R&A clubhouse and Hamilton Hall.

Gentlemen, play away.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2002, 07:00:58 AM »
Oh, Bradley!  You of all people.  Please re-read my initial post and re-think your answer.  I'll give you a day.  HINT HINT:  You will be more able to respond than anyone else!

-John
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2002, 07:01:53 AM »
Shooter:

yyuryyubicuryy4me

 :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2002, 07:17:31 AM »
I agree about the New Course.  It's not St Andrews, but what course is?  It is still makes for a terrific round of golf.

It also makes for a great case study.  

With the constant, strong tradewinds in FLA, why aren't more links style courses built there?  They would seem the ideal model for the windy, sandy conditions there. Why is it so rare to find courses in FLA that allow you to play under the wind?  Unlike, say, NJ or SF or Chicago or Atlanta, it is a place where the conditions scream out for that option.  Why isn't the New Course (or a Troon or a Dornoch) used more often as a model for how courses ought to be built in FLA?

I've never gotten a good answer to those questions.  I don't even hear them asked very often, though they seem so obvious.  Is it a failure of the architectural imagination - in the case of Florida golf, a failure of truly historic proportions?  Is the issue that the golfing public won't be attracted to these courses because they don't have lots of lagoons, wooden bulkheads and forced carries to island greens (in 30mph+ winds, I might add)?  

On a personal note, I played the New Course for the first time about 15 years ago.  As mentioned, I loved it.  At the time I knew virtually nothing about cga and didn't understand why I had enjoyed the course so much.  I also didn't understand at the time why I had come to dislike playing so many other FLA courses.  Unless business requires it, I avoid golf trips to FLA to this day.

Bottom line is that I owe the New Course a huge debt of gratitude.  A round there in 1987 got me thinking about gca for the first time.  And here we are.

Bob
 

  

    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #8 on: February 19, 2002, 07:22:42 AM »
Sorry, if this was meant as a trick question, my response above missed your tone and would be more appropriate in another thread.  

Bob
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

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Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #9 on: February 19, 2002, 08:11:02 AM »
Guys:

This is stirring up a little discussion.  Just like I hoped.  I'm gonig to give Dr. Klein some time to weigh in, then I'll add my thoughts.

Check back in a day if interested, the discussion will take another direction.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Derek Duncan

Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #10 on: February 19, 2002, 10:52:57 AM »
Damnit John, what are you talking about?  I'm very curious.  Out with it! >:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brad Klein

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Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2002, 11:05:51 AM »
You'll have to excuse Mr. Conley. If he's playing more games than usual lately, it's because he's proud new papa and prepping for the role in the nursery.

He's probably talking about St. Cloud GC in St. Cloud - a faux links on an open brownfield.

Unless he means Champions Gate-International.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

CGCS

Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2002, 11:08:25 AM »
I played in the same outing as Bradley.

I just loved it.

I have never been to TOC and don't have any preconceptions of what a golf course should be.  It was fun.

Really nice to have to decide where to hit a drive, instead of having two lines of forest decide for me.  Great greens, great conditions, wall to wall fairways.

I had so much fun it's hard to find something to nitpick.  Oh wait.  Why would they make those awful bumps and cracks in the cart paths?

CGCS
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: The course like St. Andrews near Orlando
« Reply #13 on: February 19, 2002, 11:51:46 AM »

Quote
Has anyone played the course near Orlando that plays like a Scottish links?


Bradley:

I finally got out.  First round since Jack's arrival.  At your suggestion, I played St. Cloud.  It is about an hour from my house, but I'll go back.

Here are a few thoughts on the topic I introduced...
The New at Grand Cypress is hardly a Scottish experience.  Overwatered, enormous resort, and immaculate grasses.  "Inspired" by the Old Course, only in that the holes are bunkered and they have some of the green doubling.

Imagine a small town where the locals can convene in a small clubhouse for an affordable ($35 peak with golf car) experience on decent conditions.  (Greens were awesome, BTW.)  The layout is rock hard and treeless.  A few ponds, but such are the environmental constraints of today.  Plus, the course is named for the town where it is located - you don't see that anymore.

Which city has yet to be swallowed by Orlando's growth?  That will change in about 5 more years, but for now it is the rural community closest to Orlando (actually tied with Mount Dora).  Clermont, Kissimmee, and Apopka are now in the Orlando area, but this town is still rather distinct.

Saint Cloud Golf Club is pioneering in it's retro-ness.  Remember when you played on the town's course where you lived.  Everything since then has been targeting the upper-scale market, but not SCGC.  I had a good time and know Brad did when he played it in November.  My tease was to see how many people would say the New.  C'mon, does that actually play like a Scottish links?

I think Brad is working on a similar concept for Bloomfield.  The world needs more courses like it.

A guy who builds courses worked out a lease from the city and assembled an ownership group.  That makes it quasi-municipal?  That's what I'll call it.  

Because he is familiar with construction costs, the result is a very basic layout.  It makes for an enjoyable round, but would probably not offer sufficient challenge for today's college player unless windy.  Fortunately for us, it was real breezy yesterday.

"Faux links on an open brownfield" pretty well sums it up.  A lot of people (on this board, but unfortunately nowhere else!  :) ) say they want to play on conditions like this.  Not one tree and not one blade of rough.  Just good hard turf as a playing ground.

Don't expect too much if you go; I'd hate to have someone expecting something it's not.  But if you are looking for an interesting example of a course that isn't trying to get players to "ratchet-up" (like when the casino is busy and gets $5 players on $10 tables and $50 players on $100 tables) to pay more than they really want, go see St. Cloud.

Also, if you are wondering what a course would cost if you DIDN'T follow the convention of everything you are "supposed" to be doing to compete with the glitzy stuff, go see St. Cloud.

On my deciling system, it probably rates a 6th decile - firmly average when compared to everything in Florida.  The price is below, so the value is above.

Sadly, it stands out in our area as one of very few modern courses targeting this market.

It tips at about 7100 yards, but with the hard ground and open space affected by winds holes can play much different than the posted number.

By the way, what is the green fee at the New?  Seems like a lot of you have played it.  I only have played it in events and when I worked there.  I think it runs close to $200 in the winter, so $35 for a course I like almost as much seems like a steal.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

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