It all starts at the end.

[Patrick_Mucci]

The GREEN end.

Yes, this is another plea/recommendation/accolade for contoured to highly contoured putting surfaces.

Contoured to highly contoured greens impact play in reverse.

Yes, they place a unique demand on putting skills such as touch, direction and reading, but moreso, they place even greater demands on recovery and approach, which place demands on driving.

I recently played a course with a triple decker green with greenspeeds at around 12.
The hole was cut in the middle tier.
The green was fronted by water.
Those hitting the first two tiers had a reasonable chance at two putting or better.
Those hitting the back tier had NO chance at two putting.
The premium on being on tier 1 or 2 was enormous.
This hole isn't a long hole.
Long drives can reach the water fronting the green.
However, the farther back you lay up, the longer the approach and the more difficult it is to get to the proper tier.

A perfect risk/reward dilema for the golfer.

I hit a 9-iron just to the right of the green, into the fringe, in the upper part of the middle tier, leaving me a dicey sidehill, downhill putt. to a hole cut just on the second tier.  Four putts later I recognized the error of being too aggressive with my first putt.

Hitting the middle tier was a difficult shot.
Playing to the front tier was even more difficult, given the price of failure short, and hitting to the upper tier, while easier, was probably a 3 to 4 putt shot.

Isn't this the type of situation an architect would want to subject golfers to ?

Gotta run, but, I'll add to this later

[Mac Plumart]

Did it need to be stimped at 12 to be good?

[David_Tepper]

Pat Mucci -

Do you think there should be some correlation (possibly an inverse one) between contour/slope of the greens and the general overall contour/slope of the course?

I can see where a course that has mostly flattish fairways could benefit from having greens that offer the challenge of significantly contoured greens. But, on a course that offers a lot of uphill/downhill/sidehill fairway lies, wouldn't having highly contoured greens perhaps be a little too much of a challenge? At the risk of invoking the f-word (fair ), is it reasonable to expect a golfer to hit the correct tier of a 3-tier green from 160 yards when he is hitting a ball that is 6 inches above or below his feet out in the fairway?    

DT    

[Patrick_Mucci]

David Tepper,

In Southern Florida, you have to look hard to find contours in the Fairway.
It's a pretty flat canvas.

Mac,

12 made the slopes and contours come alive and hum.

They're very good greens at 12.

They require good reading skills, judgement and touch.

They present a reasonable challenge

So, yes, they should stimp at 12.

[David_Tepper]

Pat Mucci -

I presumed you were asking us to consider a larger golf universe than just southern Florida, especially since you did not mention where the course you played (and based your observations upon) was located. 

As I stated in my prior post, I would agree that more contoured greens are appropriate for courses that are on a "pretty flat canavas."

Do you think more contoured greens are appropriate on courses that are on a hilly/sloped "canvas?"

DT
 

[Mac Plumart]

Pat, with the cold and wet conditions in Atlanta...hearing that the greens are running well and the contours are "alive" I am jealous!!!

[Ronald Montesano]

Given that Pat's "sample" was 1/18th of the total green value of the course, I refuse any judgement until I know the relative worth of that one green versus the other 18 (unless it was a one-hole course a la Saint Alister/Alistair/All-Star.)

So Pat, did the other 17 greens do for you what this one did?  If not, is it feasible to have 18 great and varied greens on a course?  If one green is beyond awesome (in the proper direction), will it skew perception and valoration of other greens (as the Old Course does to its neighbor, the New Course?)

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat Mucci -

I presumed you were asking us to consider a larger golf universe than just southern Florida, especially since you did not mention where the course you played (and based your observations upon) was located. 

As I stated in my prior post, I would agree that more contoured greens are appropriate for courses that are on a "pretty flat canavas."

Do you think more contoured greens are appropriate on courses that are on a hilly/sloped "canvas?"

Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?

DT
 

[Patrick_Mucci]

Pat, with the cold and wet conditions in Atlanta...hearing that the greens are running well and the contours are "alive" I am jealous!!!

Mac,

I've played this course many times over the last 25 years and I must say that the course and greens are much, much more fun to play when the greens stimp at 12.

Anything above that would begin to reverse the fun factor.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Given that Pat's "sample" was 1/18th of the total green value of the course, I refuse any judgement until I know the relative worth of that one green versus the other 18 (unless it was a one-hole course a la Saint Alister/Alistair/All-Star.)

So Pat, did the other 17 greens do for you what this one did?  If not, is it feasible to have 18 great and varied greens on a course?  If one green is beyond awesome (in the proper direction), will it skew perception and valoration of other greens (as the Old Course does to its neighbor, the New Course?)

The other 16 greens did not present that particular configuration, however, they were well contoured and sloped, providing for interesting approach, recovery and putting challenges.  Another green had a similar configuration, but, again, it was a rather short hole, leaving one with a short to medium iron.

[Ronald Montesano]

not a thread-jack, but an affirmation.  two of the most enjoyable days I've had on the golf course were at Fox Chapel (Raynor-Pittsburgh) and Cherry Hill (Travis-Ontario) when the greens were smoking fast.  After you three or four jab the first green, you figure it out and adjust (we are sentient, after all.)  I've only played FC that one time but have had other rounds at Cherry Hill, albeit never as fast as that one day.

Pat, I'd like to point out that you are clearly the type/level of player to which many of us aspire.  Not only can you imagine the shot needed, but you have the accuity required to pull it off.  For a player of your calibre, the type of green you mentioned is ideal.  For those who are less equipped to appreciate and challenge such a target, its value ought to be lost.  I suspect that the members of this site at handicap level 14 and above are often heard to remark "hombre, that is one great approach shot...I wish that I could compress the ball properly so as to flight it in there properly" or something along that line.

[Patrick_Mucci]

not a thread-jack, but an affirmation.  two of the most enjoyable days I've had on the golf course were at Fox Chapel (Raynor-Pittsburgh) and Cherry Hill (Travis-Ontario) when the greens were smoking fast.  After you three or four jab the first green, you figure it out and adjust (we are sentient, after all.)  I've only played FC that one time but have had other rounds at Cherry Hill, albeit never as fast as that one day.

Pat, I'd like to point out that you are clearly the type/level of player to which many of us aspire.  Not only can you imagine the shot needed, but you have the accuity required to pull it off.  For a player of your calibre, the type of green you mentioned is ideal.  For those who are less equipped to appreciate and challenge such a target, its value ought to be lost.  I suspect that the members of this site at handicap level 14 and above are often heard to remark "hombre, that is one great approach shot...I wish that I could compress the ball properly so as to flight it in there properly" or something along that line.

Ron,

The average member of this course is a higher handicap, yet, they seem to enjoy the challenge the contoured to highly contoured greens present, so I don't think the enjoyment of that configuration is confined to a decent player.

I view putting surfaces differently.

Strength is not a prerequirement.

Anybody can be a good to great putter, so mid to higher handicap players might be good to very good putters.

Getting to the putting surface is another matter

[Ronald Montesano]

Your final, green line sums up my point:  getting to the putting surface is another matter.

I interpreted the thread to meld both the green for putting's sake and for its influence on the approach shot and other, prior strikes.  If we're discussing higher handicap golfers, their enjoyment/valuation of the green-as-influence-on-hole should be more limited to its worth as a putting surface, only, due to their inability to caress a drive and an approach shot as they wish.

I agree that a higher handicap can be a decent putter...I cannot recall a single very good putter with a high handicap.  With a middle (around 14) handicap, yes, but it's usually an older player whose long game has sunk with age.

I only need look in the mirror to see a quite decent ball striker with an inconsistent putting stroke.

[Michael Moore]

Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?

Pennard
Eastward Ho!
Kapalua Plantation
Cape Breton Highland Links
Augusta National Golf Club

[Ronald Montesano]

Add Taconic in Williamstown, MA, to the list.

[David_Tepper]

"Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?"

Pat Mucci -

Here in San Francisco, the Olympic Club Lake Course and the Presidio GC are two very good courses built on hilly/sloped land that offer plenty of uneven fairway lies. While the greens on both course do have slopes that reflect the nature of the overall properties they are built on, most of the greens on both courses have little, if any, contour.   

Would you not agree that, as mentioned in a prior thread, Augusta National is a great course built on a hilly/sloped site? Based on what I have seen on TV, the greens there do have contours, but the greens there do appear to be quite large, which mitigates the contours to some extent.

DT       

[JESII]

I interpreted the thread to meld both the green for putting's sake and for its influence on the approach shot and other, prior strikes.  If we're discussing higher handicap golfers, their enjoyment/valuation of the green-as-influence-on-hole should be more limited to its worth as a putting surface, only, due to their inability to caress a drive and an approach shot as they wish.

Ron,

I'll agree, but only to the extent that the green should dictate two shots back for every golfer...in other words, if you can only hit the ball 150 yards off the tee there's no need to think about angles and position on a 400 yard hole until your second shot. Nobody should think they can just hit it wherever they please on or around the green and expect to get away with two putts every time.

[Tim Liddy]

The 3 tier green design adjacent to water is also very reminiscent of the 15 green at The Honors Course in Chattanooga, Tennessee (although it plays at 445 yards). As a whole, The Honors Course greens are as strategic as any in the county.

[Sean_A]

Pat Mucci -

I presumed you were asking us to consider a larger golf universe than just southern Florida, especially since you did not mention where the course you played (and based your observations upon) was located.  

As I stated in my prior post, I would agree that more contoured greens are appropriate for courses that are on a "pretty flat canavas."

Do you think more contoured greens are appropriate on courses that are on a hilly/sloped "canvas?"

Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?

DT
 

I am assuming there will be some sort of exquisite Muccian definition for a hilly course - perhaps to include a minimum of 100 feet of elevation on twelve holes with no fewer than six skyline greens.

Ciao

[Patrick_Mucci]

Your final, green line sums up my point:  getting to the putting surface is another matter.

I interpreted the thread to meld both the green for putting's sake and for its influence on the approach shot and other, prior strikes.  If we're discussing higher handicap golfers, their enjoyment/valuation of the green-as-influence-on-hole should be more limited to its worth as a putting surface, only, due to their inability to caress a drive and an approach shot as they wish.

That's incorrect.

You can't equate the tee to green abilities of a better player to a mediocre to poor player.
They're NOT going to hit greens in regulation.
Instead, their third shots (par 4) will be their approach shots, and as such, they face the same dilema with the approach and their recoveries.

I agree that a higher handicap can be a decent putter...I cannot recall a single very good putter with a high handicap.  With a middle (around 14) handicap, yes, but it's usually an older player whose long game has sunk with age.

I've been playing with a guy for 45 years, who's now 85.  He continues to putt like a demon.
He's a 24 handicap, but putts incredibly well.  He thinks he should hole everything.
If I could putt like him, you would have heard of me in golf circles.

I only need look in the mirror to see a quite decent ball striker with an inconsistent putting stroke.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?

Pennard
Eastward Ho!
Kapalua Plantation
Cape Breton Highland Links
Augusta National Golf Club

Michael Moore,

Have you played or walked ANGC.

I'm not so sure that I'd classify it as a hilly/sloped site.

While the course starts and finishes high, there are a lot of fairly flat holes, 1,3, 7, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17

North Jersey in Wayne NJ is a hilly/sloped site.

I can't comment on the other four as I"ve never played them

[JESII]

Pat,

I haven't played Augusta, but based on years of watching the tournament I find it hard to believe it wouldn't be considered a hilly/sloped site.

Re #13 at ANGC: the scene where Faldo was deciding which club to hit for his second made it appear that the ball, once he was addressing it with his two-iron, was almost waist high. How much slope is really there?

[JMEvensky]

Re #13 at ANGC: the scene where Faldo was deciding which club to hit for his second made it appear that the ball, once he was addressing it with his two-iron, was almost waist high. How much slope is really there?

Put it this way,the swing would have been natural for Derek Jeter.

Would Nepal GC qualify as hilly enough?

[Michael Moore]

Pat -

I would say that the sloped fairways at Augusta National Golf Club present a considerable challenge.

P.S. The issue of aiming at a difficult green off a difficult lie is most interesting.

[Patrick_Mucci]

"Can you name five (5) really good golf courses on hilly/sloped sites ?"

Pat Mucci -

Here in San Francisco, the Olympic Club Lake Course and the Presidio GC are two very good courses built on hilly/sloped land that offer plenty of uneven fairway lies. While the greens on both course do have slopes that reflect the nature of the overall properties they are built on, most of the greens on both courses have little, if any, contour.   

Would you not agree that, as mentioned in a prior thread, Augusta National is a great course built on a hilly/sloped site?
There's no question that significant elevation changes exist from the 1st tee to the 11th green, but, it's not a hilly course.
The transition from one elevation to another are quite unique.
# 6 and # 10 are very effective in that regard

Many, if not most of the lies are fairly flat on the approach.
Of the 14 non par 3's,
# 1, # 3, # 5, # 7, # 8, # 10, # 14, # 15, # 17

Based on what I have seen on TV, the greens there do have contours, but the greens there do appear to be quite large, which mitigates the contours to some extent.

I think slope is more prevalent than contour, although greens like # 5 and # 14 have a good deal of contour