Chambers Bay Struggling Financially

[JC Jones]

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/01/02/1485733/chambers-bay-still-in-red-figures.html

The unreported rumor is that Richard Choi has pledged to cover the operating losses until 2015.

[Jud_T]

It looks like a very cool place.  Loved watching the amateur, but I reiterate that with limited time and budget, why would one travel to CB over Bandon?

[Lou_Duran]

I had a great time playing my one round at Chambers Bay for which I paid $75 (twilight rate).  The guys I was paired with were good company and I joined them for a nice dinner in the club's restaurant.  I probably spent $125+ for the day without considering transportation costs from Bellevue.  It was well worth it and I'd do it again at that price.  I would not consider playing at $169, and I think that getting the green fee well under $100 is the key.  This might mean finding an alternative source for the bond's sinking fund, but good politicans can always come up with a good story line (e.g. jobs created, tax revenues generated from other sources associated with the golf course, etc.).  I do hope they figured out how to maintain good greens- the only complaint I had.

[Bill_McBride]

$21,000,000 all financed?  How many rounds at $75 needed to break even after $1M maintenance budget, staffing and interest expense?  Is it even feasible?

[Morgan Clawson]

From the article:  "Dreams of a resort hotel, beach house facility, water recreation area and other amenities at Chambers Bay did not move toward reality in 2010."

In the end, those things NOt getting built may be its saving grace!

If there's only 1 course there, then it's not enough of a destination to get people to fly in there for a golf trip. They've got to pull more folks from Seattle.

[Jim Tang]

All good points.  I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course.  If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going. 

Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon.  All those factors have to be an issue for CB.

[Bill_McBride]

$21,000,000 all financed?  How many rounds at $75 needed to break even after $1M maintenance budget, staffing and interest expense?  Is it even feasible?

Not terrible really. 30,000 rounds should break even - until the bonds are due.

[Bill_McBride]

All good points.  I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course.  If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going. 

Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon.  All those factors have to be an issue for CB.

8 hour drive Tacoma - Bandon. That's nothing for you and Colton!   

[C. Squier]

Chambers Bay is an absolute must play for anyone. Hope they get things worked out for the good of the golf course. Unfortunately, I'm afraid the slow conditioning of the greens have overshadowed the architecture for the golfing public.

[Phil McDade]

All good points.  I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course.  If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.  

Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon.  All those factors have to be an issue for CB.

Jim:

These all sound like distinctly GCA-oriented arguments, germane to the 1,500 folks who post here and few others.

Seattle is a metro area of nearly 3.5 million -- bigger than the Twin Cities, Denver, San Diego, and Tampa-St Petersburg, with a fairly long playing season (relative to Mpsl/St. Paul and Denver, in particular), and far away from any other metro area. And there's little else in the area with much distinction in terms of (publicly available) outstanding golf course architecture.

I agree with Lou -- a properly priced, high-quality course ought to be able to capture enough rounds to make ends meet in that market.

[Jim Tang]

Phil -

I agree with that statement.  My perception of CB is that it wants to be a national destination, which is reflected in its high price tag.  However, as you point out, it should be successful operating as a local destination for the fine people of WA.  I think CB needs to think more local.

[Sean Leary]

All good points.  I've considered visiting CB, but just haven't made it out there due to travel costs (I'm in the midwest) and the fact there is only one golf course.  If they had 2 courses, or if there were 2 or 3 other courses in the area that were on par with CB, then I would consider going.  

Anytime I do head west, all I can think about is Bandon.  All those factors have to be an issue for CB.

Jim:

These all sound like distinctly GCA-oriented arguments, germane to the 1,500 folks who post here and few others.

Seattle is a metro area of nearly 3.5 million -- bigger than the Twin Cities, Denver, San Diego, and Tampa-St Petersburg, with a fairly long playing season (relative to Mpsl/St. Paul and Denver, in particular), and far away from any other metro area. And there's little else in the area with much distinction in terms of (publicly available) outstanding golf course architecture.

I agree with Lou -- a properly priced, high-quality course ought to be able to capture enough rounds to make ends meet in that market.

It hasn't been properly priced for all. Only Pierce County residents have gotten the local rate so the whole Seattle area (where most of the population is) has been paying the same rate as out of staters. I hear they changed that, and it should help. It generally is not a busy course, so they can handle the volume. Also as Clint said, rumors of crappy greens there still persist. With crappy greens, Seattleites weren't willing to drive an hour or so to pay $170....

[Richard Choi]

http://www.thenewstribune.com/2011/01/02/1485733/chambers-bay-still-in-red-figures.html

The unreported rumor is that Richard Choi has pledged to cover the operating losses until 2015.

I will be happy to... as soon as I win that $290 million Mega Millions lottery.

It does look like they are going to add discount rates for Washington residents. I think that is a smart move to generate more local play. I haven't even heard of the "all you can play" rate that the article mentions.

This winter is going to be tough on the revenue as it has been very cold and very wet.

How much does a course typically make on US Open? I would think that would go a long way in paying down the bond.

[John Kirk]

I have mixed feelings about Chambers Bay.  Very good golf course with excellent par fours.  There are lots of fun shots out there.

Like many/most golf course projects competing for national recognition between 2003-2008, the finances don't add up.  It would have been nice if the course had the luxury of growing in the fescue greens for a year or so, before subjecting them to heavy play.

 

[Phil McDade]

Jim:

If CBay really aspires to being a national draw, it needs the amenities other national golf draws have -- multiple courses, accomodations that are worth traveling to, some sense of distinctiveness that would lure someone like me from the Midwest. Bandon, Kohler, Pinehurst, a few others have those -- CBay does not, from what I can tell.

[Jud_T]

Phil,

The problem is that if they aspire to get the national resort crowd, unless they build some pretty damn great courses they're geographically going to always be in Bandon's shadow.  Essentially they've got the best golf resort in the world down the (long) road, so I agree that fiscally it makes a lot more sense to focus on the local market and put the best product forward for a fair price...

[Richard Choi]

Jud & Phil,

There are enough people visiting Seattle during the summer months from all over the world already to fill up the tee sheets, unlike Bandon. They need to make sure that those people know that Chambers Bay exists. They also need to concentrate on filling out the winter months with local players.

[archie_struthers]

 

Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately.  Just stay out of business , puh-leese

[Jud_T]

Richard,

I agree that if visiting Seattle it makes sense to get out to CB.  But what other courses in the area would make me want to lug my clubs along? (Haven't had great success with lefty rental sets...Hell I'm lucky if I can hit my own set)...

[Mike_Young]

Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately.  Just stay out of business , puh-leese

AND a private entity would have never considered the venture....

[John Kavanaugh]

Just another example of how the government can spend money ndiscriminately.  Just stay out of business , puh-leese

AND a private entity would have never considered the venture....

And a brand new rater just appointed to the panel does not have the time to stop and help out on the way to Bandon. 

[Adam Clayman]

Archie's subtext is deadly accurate. This is purely unacceptable behavior from a government entity. If the costs were too high to be sustainable, they had no business going into business. Then hiring a management Co. to do their work for them. Shocking that after holding a prestigous event they were'nt able to capitalize. I feel for those early opponents to the project, who turned around once it was a done deal, only to have their first instincts realized. Maybe they need to get the " Goldman Sachs rate" and refinance.

[Phil McDade]

Going off a bit here, but one of the interesting things (to me) about these debates over public vs. private golf is the nature of risk, and how much we're willing to accept risk as a part of doing business/operating. The nature of public dollars being at stake clearly inhibits the taking of risk, yet we generally feel little compunction of private entities taking on risky ventures (like, Apple thinking computers could be something that everyone would want in their homes -- a hugely risky and at-odds-with-conventional-thinking approach). Yet it's the taking of risks, in many endeavors, that yields truly successful and paradigm-breaking products.

I've always thought the public constraints on risk is one of the reasons governmental entities often just sort of muddle through, and truly don't seek unconventional (and potentially more successful) ways of doing things.

[Richard Choi]

Adam, let's not go overboard here. The county modeled their business after Bethpage Black and their success. It was planned during the go-go days of mid-2000's where money flowed freely. Not too many people, public or private foresaw the economic meltdown. 

After the trillions we have sunked in to support Wall Street (so they can pull out hundreds of billions in bonuses), I think we can safely retire government vs private enterprise BS. Everything is government supported at this point.

[Ted Cahill]

I have visited Seattle a few times recently to play golf with local friends.  These guys play golf often, and none of them had been to CB.  They all cited the high cost for non-Pierce county residents.  If CB is not getting a couple of rounds per year out of these type golfers- they have failed in their marketing/pricing.  It's good to read that this may/is changing.  I'd like to go play CB and get these guys to joing me.  As far as the national resort angle- they should hang that up.  I live in Northern California and like to travel for golf.  I can't imagine ever choosing CB over Bandon.  Thats not the fault of CB- simply how special Bandon is.  However- if my Seattle resident friends will now play CB due to better pricing, I'm happy to join em when I'm in town.  Ill miss the Gold course, though