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Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Colonial vs. Lawsonia -- which do you prefer?

Both are well-established courses, high in the national rankings among those in the know.

No doubt for many GCAers, Colonial's ability to play fast with a degree of firmness rates it the favorite. Not a big course, by today's standards; still, a solid course, with plenty of rigor.

Lawsonia's muscular and brawny approach, however, makes it a tough course to tackle. Big mounds, wide fairways, built-up greens -- all suggest a course that can hold its own with the better-known Colonial. (And it can play deceptively fast, I might add.)

Vote early and often -- I'll tabulate the results sometime early evening tomorrow.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2010, 02:32:21 PM »
Haven't played either one...since they both have 8 letters, I'll call it a draw.
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #2 on: December 31, 2010, 02:38:01 PM »
Colonial in Ft.Worth?  There are a bunch of those everywhere.

Even assuming it is (no other colonial is ranked) and living here in DFW, I still take Lawsonia, just because I am such a Langford fan.

Did I ever mention that I actually spoke to him about a sumer job back in 1974 or so?  I got his retirement house number from either ASGCA or NGF lists and didn't think twice about calling him.  He chuckled about my job request and said he hadn't been practicing for many, many years.  That was the extent of the conversation.  He wasn't chatty about the biz or anything.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #3 on: December 31, 2010, 02:38:53 PM »
Phil,
  You're talking about Colonial CC in Fort Worth, TX, correct? I mean, really? The history, the shot making and the design of Colonial has put in the forefront of clubs for 70+ years. It’s consistently is one of the Tour Pro’s favorite course and is always ranking in the Top 100 courses of either Golfweek or GD, not a “Best course you can play,” Or Best Affordable courses.” This is a NO BRAINER to me. Colonial, John Bredemus, Perry Maxwell, Mr. Leonard, Keith Foster, Mr. Hogan and Co. win hands down.
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2010, 02:39:30 PM »
If Colonial is better than Lawsonia, then it would be one hell of a golf course. But I've yet to play it so I can't honestly say which is better.

Maybe I was very lucky this past year, but both times I was there the course was dry, fast, and hard with pretty quick greens. It says something about the course when you when 7 guys (ranging from a +2 to 17 handicaps) who have never played the course all have the same amount of fun and want to play as many holes as they can before dark!
H.P.S.

K. Krahenbuhl

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2010, 03:28:08 PM »
Lawsonia ≥ Colonial.  Lawsonia with Colonial's budget >! Colonial.

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2010, 04:25:08 PM »
Yes, Colonial in Fort Worth.

Lawsonia in Wisconsin.

Where's Scott Burroughs when I need him? ;D

Maybe I need to drop more clues....

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2010, 04:54:38 PM »
Anthony,

This may be a perfect example of a favorite course vs a "best course."  Colonial may be better in all the Tour rankings, etc., but I just like what I like.  To borrow from another thread, am I qualified to rate golf courses?

Happy New Year.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Mike_DeVries

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2010, 05:12:05 PM »
Lawsonia - Links in a no-brainer.  Colonial has great history and is a tour favorite, but how many "great" courses does the Tour play?  Lawsonia has shots galore and is a blast to play every time, while Colonial is flat and has some great holes but also some not so great.  Why do I say so, because there are many holes that I can't remember and the end run is overdone with water and very artificial hazards -- might make for some good Tour play but not everyday, IMHO. 

Both are very fine courses, Lawsonia is one of my favorites, though, and wins hands down.

Cheers,
Mike

Matt_Ward

Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2010, 10:37:53 PM »
Colonial does test the movement of the tee ball and from that standpoint it offers plenty -- save for the yawn-like topography.

For those who use the history argument -- see Anthony Nysse's nice summary of such things -- then Colonial wins on that front too.

But the issue is not history -- but overall design.

Lawsonia is a wonderful Langford design -- it possesses a wealth of design ingredients that only get better with each succeeding play --better than its counterpoint in TX.

I also think the famous 5th at Colonial is one of the most overrated holes in all of American golf. No doubt havinmg Hogan on your side goes a long way but I see the Wisconsin-based course as a solid contender for top 50 status among all courses here in the USA. The silly notion that one needs major events to validate the standing of a course is also a bonehead assetion because staging tournaments requires a range of elements that have little to do with quality design.

Lawsonia is rich in a slew of design details -- fortunately, much of its original character and charm -- have been kept as is ands not marred with graffitti-induced "improvements" from the hands of other architects.

Doak had lawsonia as a 6 but I see the course as better than that. On Colonial he gave the layout a 7 but I see the situation in exactly the reverse.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2010, 11:12:22 PM »
Matt:

I might agree with you today.  When I saw Lawsonia 20+ years ago it was very overgrown and hairy, and no one I know would have rated it a 7 on the Doak scale in that condition.  Times have changed for the better there, so I might bump it up to a 7 if I had time to see it again.

I do agree with you that the fifth at Colonial is an overrated hole, but I am surprised that a course which demands that you work the ball left on one hole and right on another, does not hold more favor with you.  The trees and the lack of elevation change do make the holes seem rather similar, but the best players respect the course highly, and not just because Hogan won there.

I would guess that 75% of players over a 10 handicap would prefer Lawsonia, and 75% of players in single digits would prefer Colonial.  I should have rated them the same.  Maybe they are both 6 and a half!

Jim Nugent

Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2011, 12:26:32 AM »
I should have rated them the same.  Maybe they are both 6 and a half!

See, Tom, you're just going to have to update the CG and release it again!

Matt_Ward

Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2011, 07:09:04 PM »
Tom:

I actually like the driving dimension that Colonial provides -- clearly such an emphasis was favored by Hogan.

However, the greensites at Colonial aren't really sophisticated and I don't see them offering the rich elements one would see with a Maxwell involvement.

The issue why the better players like Colonial is because it provides total clarity -- there's little mystery and frankly many better players don't want uncertainty in the shots / holes they face.

Clearly, the two (2) courses present a very interesting contrast.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2011, 07:12:47 PM »
Matt,

I agree the strength of Colonial lies in the constantly changing demands off the tee for us mere mortals and old timey guys.  Many long hitting tour pros actually think the doglegs, which are technically too short from the tee, are far from clear, or far too clear in dictating layups and 3 woods.

I agree that the green sites are mostly built up, and in many cases too similar.  I like the little false front on the third, and never liked the Joe Finger 11th green with its little tongues, but Keith Foster changed that one up a little a few years ago.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Matt_Ward

Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2011, 07:24:20 PM »
Jeff:

The average length of today's players versus those in Hogan's period makes for the differences in terms of how the turning points are appreciated / factored.

I too like what Keith Foster did but Colonial is a showcase for the golfer who wants total clarity in what is needed. Lawsonia goes against the grain and offers a richer dimension in not being so easily predictable and frankly that wins the day for me when the two are pitted against one another.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #15 on: January 01, 2011, 07:29:27 PM »
Maybe they are both 6 and a half!

no cheating even though its your scale Tom:  no half-points allowed!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #16 on: January 02, 2011, 10:03:55 AM »
Matt:

I might agree with you today.  When I saw Lawsonia 20+ years ago it was very overgrown and hairy, and no one I know would have rated it a 7 on the Doak scale in that condition.  Times have changed for the better there, so I might bump it up to a 7 if I had time to see it again.

I do agree with you that the fifth at Colonial is an overrated hole, but I am surprised that a course which demands that you work the ball left on one hole and right on another, does not hold more favor with you.  The trees and the lack of elevation change do make the holes seem rather similar, but the best players respect the course highly, and not just because Hogan won there.

I would guess that 75% of players over a 10 handicap would prefer Lawsonia, and 75% of players in single digits would prefer Colonial.  I should have rated them the same.  Maybe they are both 6 and a half!

Tom:

In re-reading your Confidential Guide entry (from 1986) you mention the course is charming, but the majority of the words are used to ask why then you found Blackwolf Run contrived, with little note of the architecture.

Does your comment above reflect that because conditioning has becomed better, there has been a significant renovation, or both? It would seem to me if it were both it might even be a 7.5?? :)
H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #17 on: January 02, 2011, 10:33:33 AM »
I thought the main difference was that they cleared out a buttload of trees....(?)
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #18 on: January 02, 2011, 10:42:10 AM »
I thought the main difference was that they cleared out a buttload of trees....(?)

Jud:

Yes, a ton of trees were cleared out. Plus:

From Dan Moore's Lawsonia Links Tour thread:

Architect Ron Forse has been engaged in recent years and a steady program of improvements have been undertaken and carried out by superintendent Mike Berwick.  Notable has been the removal of many trees, recapture of shrunken green surfaces, esthetically pleasing addition of fescue areas and expanded fairways with redefined fairway lines more consistent with the flowing fairway lines as originally intended by Langford and Moreau.


Course in 1992.  Starting from a centrally located clubhouse, the front nine is to left and back nine on right.  Red T’s show where trees have been removed and yellow dots show bunkers that have been grassed over.  The P shows a pond that was not part of the original course.


H.P.S.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #19 on: January 02, 2011, 10:46:10 AM »
Pat, thanx...I guess I was a bit confused when you said renovation, rather than restoration...
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #20 on: January 02, 2011, 01:25:30 PM »
Lawsonia has never been overly treed, although the tree removals done during the most recent renovation -- under the direction/advice of Ron Forse -- have led to some noticeable improvments.

Two examples:

-- In the lower left corner of the black-and-white aerial that Pat posted, trees have been removed along the right side rough of the 8th hole, a terrific short par 4 with an offset green. The tree removal makes the flag and (to some extent) green visible from the tee, and the line of charm can tempt the big hitters. But it's a fool's errand, as the green surrounds there are quite penal, and there is no sure up-and-down for birdie. Thus, the tree removal provides the illusion of options for the golfer on the tee, and actually takes his eye away from the ideal line, which is to hug the left side of the fairway to open the approach into the heavily bunkered green.

-- Immediately north of the 8th green is the tee for the uphill par 5 9th, and tree removal has restored the Cape-like nature of the drive there. It's now fescue and native grasses, and the big hitters can cut the dogleg to try to get home in two.

(FYI -- the holes on the right corner and extreme right side of the aerial -- the ones with distinctly different bunker styles -- are from the Woodlands course at Lawsonia.)

Confession: :-\ This thread was originally intended to be something of a stalking horse for a parallel debate between Fort Worth's most famous university, and Wisconsin's most famous university, both of which field football teams. I know how that one turned out. :P But I'm glad for the responses anyhow. (Jud -- where can I pay up? I'm loathe to ship bottles across state lines.... :o))

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #21 on: January 02, 2011, 01:47:48 PM »
Texas Christian University is going to do a leveraged buyout of The American Baptist Assembly, and introduce a colony of Horn Frogs in the pond on 15!   ::) ;)
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #22 on: January 02, 2011, 02:26:58 PM »
not until they cover the damn spread!! Phil let's call it a push as they didn't cover.  we'll both bring beverages to the winter get-together... ;D
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 02:29:13 PM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

Phil McDade

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 02:45:52 PM »
not until they cover the damn spread!! Phil let's call it a push as they didn't cover.  we'll both bring beverages to the winter get-together... ;D

Speaking of which....is that happening?

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Not OT -- A New Year's Day course match-up: Colonial CC vs. Lawsonia
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 02:55:15 PM »
not until they cover the damn spread!! Phil let's call it a push as they didn't cover.  we'll both bring beverages to the winter get-together... ;D

Phil,

Don't you like how he always likes to change the rules when he knows he's beat?  I'm waiting for his suggestion that I play with 3 clubs at the Grudge Match while he plays with 14.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.