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Jay Kirkpatrick

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Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #175 on: January 01, 2011, 07:57:02 PM »
Jay:

When people are asked about certain courses it's entirely possible that a layout may indeed be among the top 50 courses for that person. However, it would be important to know how many JN courses that person has played too. Getting some perspective does help clear things up considerably.

Matt,

I think that works both ways.  While seeing more courses will give you a better idea of where it fits in a larger universe... it also leads to biases.  Many of the most frequent posters here have major architectual biases that certainly play into there feelings on courses.  The Dismal River thread (which I just read) is a perfect example of that.

Matt_Ward

Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #176 on: January 01, 2011, 08:03:11 PM »
Jay:

Without a deep portfolio of courses one can only say a given course is the best from what you have seen / played. That's what made Doak's CG book so powerful -- his wherewithal to see / play the varied courses in order to provide some sort of meaningful context for an overall perspective.

Jay you quickly threw into the equation -- biases. What does one have to do with the other?

If someone says DR is among the top 50 courses in the nation then I'd like to know a general idea of how many courses one has played and also a number of the total JN courses played. Context and overall perspective matter a great deal to me.

Please enumerate for me and others -- the names of people -- the "frequent posters" you believe here on GCA have "major architectural biases."

For the record I liked DR and I'm glad it has been hopefully improved. Would I have the course among my personal top 50 in the USA? No. But I would need to personally play the course again since the changes happened. Thanks ...

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #177 on: January 01, 2011, 08:05:17 PM »
John and Adam...

You touch on a great point and that is things change.  I think people do their best to keep up, but alas things change constantly.

I know that a big caravan of raters recently went to Dismal to see the "new" Dismal.  Also, I think a lot of the responsibility rests on the shoulders of the ownership group.  Get the word out, invite raters, encourage them to see the changes...that is if they care about the rankings.  I believe Chris J. and the ownership group at Dismal are doing the appropriate things in this regard.


But it will come down to people's opinions of the course in the end.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Sean_A

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Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #178 on: January 01, 2011, 08:09:33 PM »
Andy

I don't know how routing is fit in.  But, if we are gonna talk about the ranking of golf courses, then we must be able to insightfully comment on the routing to scratch at the concept of architecture which should then reveal why course A is better than course B, no? Otherwise, we aren't really talking about the best courses from #1 down to whatever.  We are talking about what are the best courses to play and that is so far from objective that its laughable.Ciao

You mean that we are NOT ranking courses on how they play?  Are courses just museum pieces?  Sounds like something from  the Dan King school of gca appreciation.  It does make for a much faster and affordable way of enjoying golf.

Can a course with a great routing but indifferent green complexes and uninspired hazards be considered outstanding?  I think not.



Lou

Rating a course on how it plays for who?  How a course plays?  Two questions which leaves me perplexed especially if we take the ordinary view of how a course plays for the best players - of which there are very few so very few actually know.  Not to mention to discover how a course plays one needs to see it in different weather/wind conditions.  No, you are rating the experience of a play more than anything else unless you are seriously intimate with the course and how it was designed.  For instance, how in the heck does a person know how well the features of the land were used if they didn't know the property before it was a course?  For that matter, do folks even know what features are built and which are incorporated by the routing?  

Jaka B

By saying a course is top 100 whatever is the same as giving it a number.  

Ciao

New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

John Kavanaugh

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #179 on: January 01, 2011, 08:18:53 PM »
Sean,

Yes, but I was not obligated to say it.

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #180 on: January 01, 2011, 08:25:35 PM »
Sean,

Yes, but I was not obligated to say it.

Jaka

Not many people are obligated to assign numbers.  They do it in the main because they enjoy doing it.  Even the guys who swear off numbers have some sort of "system" for deciding what they liked or didn't and if they would go back and under what conditions.  Its human nature and so far as I know we are all human on this site.  

Anyway - in case anybody is confused - I rate courses based on a number of things which roughly equates to the course (including beauty) ~60%, club, history, ambience (all that sort of thing) ~20% and value ~20%.  Whether or not that qualifies me to be a rater is somebody else's guess, but it does explain why I would rather play Kington over Muirfield!

Ciao
« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 08:35:53 PM by Sean Arble »
New plays planned for 2024: Nothing

J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #181 on: January 01, 2011, 08:30:11 PM »
Sean,

Yes, but I was not obligated to say it.

Jaka

Not many people are obligated to assign numbers.  They do it in the main because they enjoy doing it.  Even the guys who swear off numbers have some sort of "system" for deciding what they liked or didn't and if they would go back and under what conditions.  Its human nature and so far as I know we are all human on this site. 

Ciao
If we were discussing women I am certain that we would all be expert "raters".  ;)

Wade Schueneman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #182 on: January 01, 2011, 09:05:30 PM »
It might also be worth considering how many times a rater needs to play a course in order to adequately rate it. Perhaps once is not enough.       

RSLivingston_III

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #183 on: January 01, 2011, 09:13:28 PM »
Course rating comes up about once a month. Did any new territory get covered this time?
"You need to start with the hickories as I truly believe it is hard to get inside the mind of the great architects from days gone by if one doesn't have any sense of how the equipment played way back when!"  
       Our Fearless Leader

Andy Troeger

Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #184 on: January 01, 2011, 09:16:17 PM »
Course rating comes up about once a month. Did any new territory get covered this time?

Ralph,
I think you already know the answer  ;) ;D

Chris Johnston

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #185 on: January 01, 2011, 09:49:04 PM »
All

Dismal River is a very special place for golf.  I hope to have a GCA outing in early to mid June 2011 and assume some here are raters as well as the simply interested - all here will be invited.  I hope many of you will come to see for yourselves.

A comment from the "not unbiased"".  From my past life in golf, I have played more than 3/4's of the Golfweek Modern top 100.  Based upon the Golfweek rating criteria, I would easily put Dismal River well into the top 25, well into.  Dismal is Jack's best or second best course, and there are more than two JN courses in the ratings.  The reason...simple...the site was beyond exceptional.  It is also a unique design with terrific shot values, very well conditioned, and unlike any course I have played in the US outside of SHGC.  Add the Nebraska Sand Hills...and...well...

Maybe it will take time to get respect.  Maybe it never will.  I can say this with all humility, Dismal is in my absolute top for golf and experience.  There are few better.

Hope some of you will come out to see her.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #186 on: January 01, 2011, 11:45:02 PM »
To answer the question posed, Im qualified.  Next?

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #187 on: January 02, 2011, 02:53:25 AM »
Jud T:

Quote
even the ocean views that don't come into play...

You're in the Mucci school of "setting doesn't count", then? You'd enjoy Kingsley just as much if it were routed through a junkyard?


Scott,

I'd think it's just as good of a golf course.  Would I enjoy it as much? Perhaps not.  FYI-one of my favorite local courses is next to a garbage dump...I just think the scenic views are almost universally given too much influence, particularly where they don't come into play.  If I want to go sightseeing or bird-watching, I don't need to pay $300 and lug my bag...Coastal property does matter in 1 regard: Wind...
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 03:03:56 AM by Jud Tigerman »
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #188 on: January 02, 2011, 08:36:15 AM »
Jud T:

Quote
even the ocean views that don't come into play...

You're in the Mucci school of "setting doesn't count", then? You'd enjoy Kingsley just as much if it were routed through a junkyard?


Scott,

I'd think it's just as good of a golf course.  Would I enjoy it as much? Perhaps not.  FYI-one of my favorite local courses is next to a garbage dump...I just think the scenic views are almost universally given too much influence, particularly where they don't come into play.  If I want to go sightseeing or bird-watching, I don't need to pay $300 and lug my bag...Coastal property does matter in 1 regard: Wind...

There is nothing about the setting at Kingsley Club that adds anything to the golf course.  That is one of the things that makes Kingsley so great is that it doesn't rely at all on anything external (i.e. setting, clubhouse, amenities, etc.).  The only thing you can judge Kingsley on is the golf course and it is a phenomenal golf course.
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #189 on: January 02, 2011, 09:56:32 AM »
 8) JC,

One can also judge Kingsley by what's in the mailbox at the 18th tee!  

On that note, this subject is all about a taste, like The Distilleries of Scotland, what's your favourite Scotch Whisky?  Same for golf courses.. as one taste is normally sufficient to rate it.

Information on over 125 distilleries in the Speyside, Highland, Islay, Campbeltown, Lowland and Island regions, some of them are silent or dismantelled but most of the distilleries are still in operation... If you are planning a visit to Scotland would you not recommend:
  
    SPEYSIDE  
   ABERLOUR  
   ALLT A'BHAINNE  
    AULTMORE  
  BALMENACH  
   BALVENIE  
  BENRIACH  
   BENRINNES  
  BENROMACH  
   BRAEVAL (SILENT)  
    CAPERDONICH (SILENT)  
   CARDHU  
   COLEBURN (SILENT)  
    CONVALMORE (SILENT)  
   CRAGGANMORE  
   CRAIGELLACHIE  
   DAILUAINE  
    DALLAS DHU (SILENT)  
    DALWHINNIE  
  DRUMGUISH  
   DUFFTOWN  
    GLENALLACHIE  
    GLENBURGIE  
   GLENDRONACH  
   GLENDULLAN  
   GLEN ELGIN  
    GLENFARCLAS  
   GLENFIDDICH  
   GLENGLASSAUGH  
   GLEN GRANT  
   GLEN KEITH  
   THE GLENLIVET  
   GLENLOSSIE  
    GLEN MHOR (LOST)  
    GLEN MORAY  
   GLENROTHES  
    GLEN SPEY  
   GLENTAUCHERS  
   IMPERIAL  
   INCHGOWER  
    KININVIE  
   KNOCKANDO  
  KNOCKDHU  
    LlNKWOOD  
   LONGMORN  
    MACALLAN  
   MACDUFF  
    MANNOCHMORE  
    MILTONDUFF  
   MORTLACH  
    PITTYVAICH (LOST)  
  SPEYBURN  
   STRATHISLA  
   STRATHMILL  
   TAMDHU  
  TAMNAVULIN  
    TOMATIN  
    TOMINTOUL  
   TORMORE  
    HIGHLAND  
    ABERFELDY  
   ARDMORE  
   AUCHROISK  
    BANFF (LOST)  
  BALBLAIR  
   BEN NEVIS  
    BEN WYVIS (LOST)  
    BLAIR ATHOLL  
    CLYNELISH  
  DALMORE  
    DEANSTON  
    EDRADOUR  
  FETTERCAIRN  
    GLEN ALBYN (LOST)  
    GLENCADAM  
    GLENESK (SILENT)  
    GLENGARIOCH  
  GLENGOYNE  
    GLENLOCHY (SILENT)  
    GLENMORANGIE  
    GLEN ORD  
    GLENTURRET  
    GLENUGIE (LOST)  
    GLENURY ROYAL (LOST)  
    LOCH LOMOND  
    LOCHSIDE (SILENT)  
    MILLBURN (LOST)
    NORTH PORT (LOST)
    OBAN  
  OLD PULTENEY  
    ROYAL BRACKLA  
     ROYAL LOCHNAGAR  
    TEANINICH  
  THE SPEYSIDE
   TULLIBARDINE  
    ISLAY  
   ARDBEG  
   BOWMORE  
  BRUICHLADDICH  
    BUNNAHABHAIN  
   CAOL ILA  
    LAGAVULIN  
    LAPHROAIG  
   PORT ELLEN (SILENT)  
    ISLAND  
   ARRAN  
    HIGHLAND PARK  
  ISLE OF JURA  
    SCAPA  
    TALISKER  
    TOBERMORY  
    LOWLAND  
    AUCHENTOSHAN  
    BLADNOCH  
    GLENKINCHIE  
    GLEN FLAGLER (SILENT)  
    INVERLEVEN (SILENT)  
    KINCLAITH (LOST)  
    LADYBURN (LOST)  
    LITTLEMILL (SILENT)  
    ROSEBANK (SILENT)  
    ST MAGDALENE (SILENT)  
    CAMPBELTOWN  
    GLEN SCOTIA  
    SPRINGBANK  
    GRAIN  
    CALEDONIAN (LOST)  
    CAMBUS (SILENT)
    CAMERON BRIDGE  
    DUMBARTON  
    GIRVAN  
   INVERGORDON  
    NORTH BRITISH  
    PORT DUNDAS  
    STRATHCLYDE
 

 "Transform your Scotch Whisky Knowledge"

the clock is ticking.. the sunlight grows longer..
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 12:09:26 PM by Steve Lang »
Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #190 on: January 02, 2011, 09:58:55 AM »
Everyone is qualified to rate golf courses.  

Did you like it?  What did you like about it?  What didn't you like about it?  How did it make you feel?  Why did it make you feel that way?  

There are people on this site that have played a gazillion golf courses, but their personal biases (preferences) always bleed over into their ratings.  That is human nature...it won't change.  So, the newer players need to simply observe, study, and chronicle their feelings, biases (preferences), and the courses.  Do this with enough passion and over time you'll get your arms around it.  Do this and include enough travel to go along with the passion and you will have the context and frame of reference to be a good rater/critic.  But, aside from enjoying yourself and the travel, I am not sure what that really gets you.   ???

Mac,
Spot on.
A few on this site may hurt their backs from all the patting ;)
It's just golf-  a game meant to be played and enjoyed.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 10:05:44 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #191 on: January 02, 2011, 10:01:09 AM »
Golfweek offers a series of Rater Camps throughout the year.  Here is a link to the one coming up in early January.  I would suggest anyone interested in this subject needs to sign up and see if you can make the cut.

http://golfweek.bluegolf.com/bluegolf/golfweek9/event/golfweek923/index.htm
 

That seems a bit creepy to me.
while part of me wants to applaud the effort on the part of the magazine, the other parts worries about the homogonization of the process.....
« Last Edit: January 02, 2011, 10:34:37 AM by jeffwarne »
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

jeffwarne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #192 on: January 02, 2011, 10:25:23 AM »
When my wife (then girlfriend) first landed a job at a big daily paper, one of her jobs was to visit some of the city's galleries each week and compile a column of the best exhibits with a bit of info about them, the work on show etc.

My mum was amazed when she found out.

"I didn't know you had a strong interest in art?" she said.

"I don't," my missus replied. "Well, I like it, but I have no particular knowledge about it."

"But I plan my gallery visits on the strength of what looks good in that column. I always thought it was written by an expert!"

"No, some of the other people who have done it said if they are really busy they just ring the gallery, they don't even go out to visit."

By this stage my mum's illusion was shattered! - some newcomer journo with no particular knowledge was advising a few hundred thousand readers every weekend which galleries they should see - pretty ridiculous, she thought.

I felt the same way when I found out the identities of a few people who are magazine raters. My already thin faith in the lists was eroded completely.

Who is qualified to rate golf courses? Far fewer people than are tasked with the duty, in my opinion.

Exactly.
So why all the fuss about the ratings.
Why are we so obsessed with groupthink?

This is not a college football championship where a playoff system would eliminate some/much of the subjectivity.
"Let's slow the damned greens down a bit, not take the character out of them." Tom Doak
"Take their focus off the grass and put it squarely on interesting golf." Don Mahaffey

Jud_T

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #193 on: January 02, 2011, 10:28:07 AM »
Steve,

Now there's a list worth arguing about.  Glenmorangie 18 year is numero uno..
Golf is a game. We play it. Somewhere along the way we took the fun out of it and charged a premium to be punished.- - Ron Sirak

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #194 on: January 02, 2011, 11:36:31 AM »
Another reason why Kingsley is so great, they put an Irish Whisky in the mailbox on 18 ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #195 on: January 02, 2011, 11:48:35 AM »
Frankly I do not understand our obsession with assigning numerical value to "things" and drawing up "Top XX" lists. I think rating golf courses is right up there in the relm of meaningless, ridiculous, senseless, acts as trophy hunting.
No one is above the law. LOCK HIM UP!!!

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #196 on: January 02, 2011, 12:18:52 PM »
 8)  Irish or Scottish .. i don't immediatelyremeber the brand.. all i know is i got a rich glow after a good gulp there last summer.. ::)

..but really, isn't golf course rating just like whiskey or wine tasting?  swirl, smell the bouquet, pause, swig, judge the tastes and spit..

..and as i learned at an early age.. for wine.. buy on bread, sell on cheese, while for whisky, swallow ::)

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #197 on: January 02, 2011, 12:26:38 PM »
8)  Irish or Scottish .. i don't immediatelyremeber the brand.. all i know is i got a rich glow after a good gulp there last summer.. ::)

..but really, isn't golf course rating just like whiskey or wine tasting?  swirl, smell the bouquet, pause, swig, judge the tastes and spit..

..and as i learned at an early age.. for wine.. buy on bread, sell on cheese, while for whisky, swallow ::)



 ;D ;D

Jameson's be the brand.  I only made a note of it because I tend to prefer Irish to Scottish when it comes to Whisky.  The water be sweeter on the emerald isle.

My question for you is, what kind of whisky shall we have in our bags at Belvedere? :)
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

Steve Lang

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #198 on: January 02, 2011, 06:53:50 PM »
JC,

Ahhhhh, yes, Jameson's, very smooth.. for us anything of substantial proof will do, but multiple tastings will be in order..

couldn't resist.. looking up a little history on this Jameson's subject.. like that their motto means "no fear", perhaps needed for the 7th or 15th at the Bel?  Have you ever thought of distilling spirits?

Jameson is a Single distillery Irish whiskey produced by a division of the French distiller Pernod Ricard. Jameson is similar in its adherence to the single distillery principle to the single malt tradition, but Jameson combines malted barley with unmalted or "green" barley. The most famous component within Jameson is the "Pure Pot Still" distilling tradition.

The company was established in 1780 when John Jameson established the Bow Street Distillery in Dublin. Jameson was Scottish, a lawyer from Alloa who had married Margaret Haig, a sister of the brothers who founded the main Haig Scotch whisky firms, and related to the Steins, a Scottish distilling family with interests in Dublin. Originally one of the six main Dublin Whiskeys, Jameson is now distilled in Cork, although vatting still takes place in Dublin. With annual sales of over 31 million bottles, Jameson is by far the best selling Irish whiskey in the world, as it has been internationally since the early 19th century when John Jameson along with his son (also named John) was producing more than a million gallons annually.[1]

Inverness (Toledo, OH) cathedral clock inscription: "God measures men by what they are. Not what they in wealth possess.  That vibrant message chimes afar.
The voice of Inverness"

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Who is qualified to rate golf courses?
« Reply #199 on: January 02, 2011, 07:12:00 PM »
JC,

Ahhhhh, yes, Jameson's, very smooth.. for us anything of substantial proof will do, but multiple tastings will be in order..

couldn't resist.. looking up a little history on this Jameson's subject.. like that their motto means "no fear", perhaps needed for the 7th or 15th at the Bel?  Have you ever thought of distilling spirits?


No fear is right.  I'd never thought of cutting the corner on the 15th until this summer.  Now, I see no other way to play it!!
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

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