[TEPaul]

......evolving architecture and evolving history, the second course.

In another first page thread on here, Mike Sweeney said this:

"Delicate balance, but golf is full of historical figures who have thumbed their noses at the establishment:

* CB Macdonald at least in part started National Golf Links of America to stick it to Shinnecock."



It jogged my mind from another first page thread on here entitled "The Origins of Golf at Shinnecock, a Confused History."

The original golf course of Davis and Dunn endured for a time at Shinnecock and then in some apparent burst of improvement sentiment it seems like the next phase rolled into being in the teens, and the participants in it seem quite interesting. This was what was essentially considered to be the second golf course of the three courses of Shinnecock GC, the oldest incorporated club in America still in the same place.

I touted the excellent recent historical work of the club in the other thread, "The Story of Golf in Shinnecock Hills, (1999) D. Goddard. It goes on and the next phase of Shinnecock I found very interesting, even though the club did drop off the major tournament rota as another very early tournament course, Myopia, did.

Why was that?

But Shinnecock came back after years of hiatus and quietude to hold a Walker Cup (1977) and then back on the rota with three US Opens in three decades.

The details of the rest of the history is interesting and who knows, maybe some of our Uber research moles can supply the club with some newspaper articles with info they are still unaware of to date.

Oh, and don't a single one of you little know-nothings even think of posting or going to Shinnecock first without asking my permission or Wayne's.


Bonus Question:

What was the year and what was the US Open course in which the US Open was first separated from the US Amateur in time and venue? And the second bonus question is-----what was the primary thinking behind that?

[Mike Sweeney]

I touted the excellent recent historical work of the club in the other thread, "The Story of Golf in Shinnecock Hills, (1999) D. Goddard. It goes on and the next phase of Shinnecock I found very interesting, even though the club did drop off the major tournament rota as another very early tournament course, Myopia, did.

Why was that?

But Shinnecock came back after years of hiatus and quietude to hold a Walker Cup (1977) and then back on the rota with three US Opens in three decades.

The details of the rest of the history is interesting and who knows, maybe some of our Uber research moles can supply the club with some newspaper articles with info they are still unaware of to date.

Oh, and don't a single one of you little know-nothings even think of posting or going to Shinnecock first without asking my permission or Wayne's.


Bonus Question:

What was the year and what was the US Open course in which the US Open was first separated from the US Amateur in time and venue? And the second bonus question is-----what was the primary thinking behind that?

Tom,

Like most of these threads, the good comes out in the first two or three pages and then....

The reason that I find golf club history interesting is:

• I am a golfer
• Golf and its courses are a reflection of its/their surroundings

I do not apologize for finding this interesting:

"The architectural achievements of Stanford White are sometimes overshadowed by the circumstances surrounding his death. On June 25, 1906, White was fatally shot by the jealous husband of his former mistress, Evelyn Nesbitt. Nonetheless the legacy of McKim, Mead & White is very much present in the libraries, museums, and government buildings they designed for our largest cities and in the many private houses that are still being enjoyed by their owners and visitors as they were originally intended."

http://antiquesandthearts.com/archive/stan.htm

Shinnecock is a reflection of Southampton in that era which is now long gone. The "Southampton 100" (the founding families of the estate section in Southampton) were clearly not interested in being listed in any national periodical or list.

Yes, David M falls short in understanding the surrounding society of these clubs in that era, but he does unveil information that is sometimes hidden by that same society.

In the era of Wikileaks, you do sometimes come off like a CIA agent telling us how important that information is, but reality is it is simply a little embarrassing for a period of about 10 minutes for those involved, and then 1197 of us are onto the next topic. As my wife often says to me when I am late coming home from a round at Yale, "Information is the cure."

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, do you mean Tom Paul could tell us "the rest of the story," but then he'd have to kill us?   

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Like most of these threads, the good comes out in the first two or three pages and then...."


Mike:

I certainly understand that and I completely agree with you. I think we should also realize that most any honest and criticial (in the finest sense of that word of course) discussion on here about C.B. Macdonald eventually gets hit on here with some serious flak!

Again, I tout the latest Shinnecock historical account ("The Story of Shinnecock Hills") and I just find that Goddard treats this phase, Macdonald and the other Shinnecock movers responsible for the second course, in a most interesting way.

I am also going to put this site on notice once again about my posting philosophy. I have read that new Shinnecock history but it is my understanding that it is not exactly public domain material; it's still private club material and so I am only going to talk about what I read and I am not going to copy the actual work on here or even directly quote what it says. If someone on here would like to question what I say and write about, the veracity of it etc, my suggestion, as usual, will be they know where to find it and they can just go to the club and make their own arrangements to read it, as I did.

After-all, it's a free world and no one needs my permission (or Wayne's ) to call Shinnecock GC and make their own arrangements with them!

[Mike Sweeney]

Mike, do you mean Tom Paul could tell us "the rest of the story," but then he'd have to kill us?   

I was kind of going the other way and hoping that Tom could set up an outing at Shinnecock for us to fully understand the issues!!! 

[Bill_McBride]

Mike, do you mean Tom Paul could tell us "the rest of the story," but then he'd have to kill us?   

I was kind of going the other way and hoping that Tom could set up an outing at Shinnecock for us to fully understand the issues!!! 

Let me know when!  A long weekend perhaps?   

[TEPaul]

"In the era of Wikileaks, you do sometimes come off like a CIA agent telling us how important that information is, but reality is it is simply a little embarrassing for a period of about 10 minutes for those involved, and then 1197 of us are onto the next topic. As my wife often says to me when I am late coming home from a round at Yale, "Information is the cure.""


MikeS:

Would you consider elaborating on what--all you are referring to and mean by 'but the reality is it is simply a little embarrassing..."?

[Mike Sweeney]

MikeS:

Would you consider elaborating on what--all you are referring to and mean by 'but the reality is it is simply a little embarrassing..."?

Tom,

Not anything specific to you or David. I will send you an IM or email to explain.

[TEPaul]

"Tom,
Not anything specific to you or David. I will send you an IM or email to explain."



MikeS:

OK, thanks. At first I thought you may be referring to something from back in that day which might appear particularly politically incorrect to our sensibilities today. 
 
 
 

[Adam_Messix]

The Open and Amateur Championships separated rather early, in 1898.  The Amateur going to Morris County Golf Club in New Jersey and the Open going to the much discussed Myopia Hunt Club.  People forget that the Open was an afterthought when it first began and was a sidelight to the main event, the Amateur.

I would be guessing as to why they separated.  But given the nature of golf during that time, it may have had something to do with separating the ruffian professionals from the gentlemen amateurs.  It wasn't until 1920 at Inverness that pros were allowed in the clubhouse. 

[Brad LeClair]

The Open and Amateur Championships separated rather early, in 1898.  The Amateur going to Morris County Golf Club in New Jersey and the Open going to the much discussed Myopia Hunt Club.  People forget that the Open was an afterthought when it first began and was a sidelight to the main event, the Amateur.

I would be guessing as to why they separated.  But given the nature of golf during that time, it may have had something to do with separating the ruffian professionals from the gentlemen amateurs.  It wasn't until 1920 at Inverness that pros were allowed in the clubhouse. 

I recall a section in The Evangelist where it is discussed the separation of the tournaments and as i recall your guess pretty accurate.  the history of the "first" US Amateur and C.B.'s involvement is one of the funniest things i can imagine given the world we live in now and the drama of major tournaments.

[TEPaul]

"The Open and Amateur Championships separated rather early, in 1898.  The Amateur going to Morris County Golf Club in New Jersey and the Open going to the much discussed Myopia Hunt Club.  People forget that the Open was an afterthought when it first began and was a sidelight to the main event, the Amateur.

I would be guessing as to why they separated.  But given the nature of golf during that time, it may have had something to do with separating the ruffian professionals from the gentlemen amateurs.  It wasn't until 1920 at Inverness that pros were allowed in the clubhouse."



Adam:

I think those thoughts above are relevent and somewhat important, but perhaps the greatest reason was that the questions and the dynamic back in those days was one of the question of the quality or comparison of the professional golfer compared to the best amateur golfers.

Don't forget, the USGA, the sponsoring organization and association of the American US Amateurs and the US Opens were both concerned and interested in that question.

The problem became (to some degree) that if they just attached the US Open as a 36 hole one day stroke play event onto the following day of the multi-day US Amateur match play championship, instead of separating them into two venues and time-schedules,  that the best of the amateurs might be too damned tired to compete well in the one day US Open that had been tacked onto the back of the US Amateur!!!

The first separated US Open was indeed Myopia in 1898 and the low amateur in that tournament was Herbert C. Leeds, the same Myopia member who would be recognized for creating the highly respected Myopia Hunt club eighteen hole golf course to come which would hold three more US Opens by 1908 but never a US Amateur.

Leeds would not let Myopia host a US Amateur during that time-span and the club actually seems to record the reason why that was.

[Jim_Kennedy]

The Open needed the amateur players. All the top professional golfers in the latter part of the 19th century were Scottish (were there any American pros in 1898?). At the same time golf had become so popular that it was overtaking tennis as the game of choice at the country clubs. If the Amateur and the Open weren’t separated the latter would continue to be ruled by the professional  ‘foreigners’, and once we have adopted a sport as our own we expect it’s champions to be home grown. 

It may have added to the storyline, but it wasn’t Francis Ouimet’s age that made a hero out of him.     

[TEPaul]

It is of course probably something of an open question or definition of what could be considered the "Next Phase" in the architectural development of Shinnecock's course but between 1897 and 1900 up to 1,200 yards was added to the course that had been the combination of Davis and Dunn and on which the 1896 US Amateur and US Open was played on.

As to who made those significant changes after 1897 the club's only direct record says "experts of long golf experience were consulted" (a quotation from the president or former president Thomas Barber). The club's most recent historical account speculates that Willie Park Jr may've had something to do with it but the club has no actual evidence of that.

[TEPaul]

By the way, this account, "The Story of Shinnecock Hills" (1999) makes some very interesting points about the affects on Shinnecock G.C. in a number of ways when C.B. Macdonald and the prospect of NGLA began to appear on the horizon, certainly including when he bought the land for NGLA (205 acres) and what was paid for it. This directly related to a number of issues such as who had controlled the disposition of that entire area (so-called "Shinnecock Hills" which initially comprised approximately 3,600 acres) and the economic health and prospects of the entities that controlled it at any point in time. The fact is the land companies that controlled it were very much interconnected with most of the founders and principles of Shinnecock GC.

And then there were some various potentially problematic issues for Shinnecock GC such as where the railroad station would be located or relocated. With this the aspect of the LIRR's all powerful Austin Corbin entered the picture and the equation!

To say that the "NGLA Affect" weighed heavily on the minds of the men who ran Shinnecock and effected their decisions with the course for up to ten or more years (between about 1906 and 1917) is putting it mildly!

[JMEvensky]

To say that the "NGLA Affect" weighed heavily on the minds of the men who ran Shinnecock and effected their decisions with the course for up to ten or more years (between about 1906 and 1917) is putting it mildly!

How much,if any,common membership was there between SH and NGLA?Wouldn't there have been several who were members of both?

[TEPaul]

There were some common members between the two clubs. A few of the most significant were: J. Bowers Lee, James Parrish, William Putnam and of course Judge J. Morgan O'Brien, a very prominent man in the New York legal community and a very good friend of Macdonald's.

Two men of Shinnecock GC I had not been aware of before who had a great deal to do with affecting some significant changes to the course were Chester Griswold in the early teens and the twelve year highly respected president from 1907-1919 who seemed to be quite the benefactor to the club and who ushered in the Macdonald/Raynor course, George Crawford Clark.

[JMEvensky]

There were some common members between the two clubs. A few of the most significant were: J. Bowers Lee, James Parrish, William Putnam and of course Judge J. Morgan O'Brien, a very prominent man in the New York legal community and a very good friend of Macdonald's.

Two men of Shinnecock GC I had not been aware of before who had a great deal to do with affecting some significant changes to the course were Chester Griswold in the early teens and the twelve year highly respected president from 1907-1919 who seemed to be quite the benefactor to the club and who ushered in the Macdonald/Raynor course, George Crawford Clark.

Thanks.

I always find it fascinating how interconnected these people were.

[TEPaul]

Jeff:

You're sure right about that and for me personally too. To me so many of those people were just "names" I grew up with and hearing about, and I have always had a very bad understanding of my own family. I was fairly shocked in the last few days to learn that George Crawford Clark was my twice great uncle. But when I read his name in the Shinnecock history book it just seemed too coincidental as my grandfather's name was Louis Crawford Clark and he had two sons named Louis Crawford Clark Jr and David Crawford Clark and a daughter, Frances Ellen Clark (my mother), and the men worked for the old line Wall Street firm Clark, Dodge and Co. including George Crawford Clark of Shinnecock. I have a cousin named Louis Crawford Clark who is that rare relation in that he is my first cousin TWICE! (my mother's brother married my father's sister). His father was killed testing Hell Cats in April 1942 and he was born in September, 1942.

But the really weird thing was I did a Google Search on George Crawford Clark and I could see my grandfather was his nephew. Then I did a Google Search on Louis Crawford Clark and about the second page this thing came up from this person called Colin Clark in which he was asking anyone out there if they could tell him anything about his grandfather (Louis Crawford Clark) who was killed testing planes for the WASP in 1942. This guy Colin Clark is my nephew.

So of course I emailed him so I could tell him the little I know about his grandfather. Not much was ever said in my family about him because it was obviously so painful to all of them what happened to him and how. But what a guy he was (that's another story).  And to make it more poignant still, my mother (his sister) when she was over in the main house on this farm dying I was sitting with her. She was a bit passed communicating but after a while I could see she was lying there staring out the window and murmuring something quietly. I went over to the side of the bed and looked at her and she was quietly murmuring over and over, Louie, Louie, Louie...

She hadn't seen him in sixty two years and maybe she felt she was about to again..

Those were the last words I ever heard her speak. What a world, Huh, Jeff?!

[JMEvensky]

TEP,good stuff.

Not up to Fern level,but still...

You ever stop to think that if these same ~ 100 guys could've gotten along there might only be one really great golf club?

[jkinney]

TEP,good stuff.

Not up to Fern level,but still...

You ever stop to think that if these same ~ 100 guys could've gotten along there might only be one really great golf club?

Since TEPaul hasn't yet answered, I'll put in my 2 cents. National was bound to follow Shinny just as surely as Sebonack eventually  followed National. The ground of the Shinnecock Hills cried out for golf courses, and that ground was part of the greatest seaside summer climate and resort area in America. Also, there has always been cross membership between Shinny & National. Today it numbers 50 odd.

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