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TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #50 on: December 27, 2010, 08:06:27 PM »
"* George Thomas thumbed his nose at his Philadelphia roots and created some masterpieces in California."


Mike Sweeney:

Actually that one may be a bit historically and factually off. George Thomas Jr. apparently didn't exactly thumb his nose at his Philadelphia roots. The guy basically was primarily eyeing some far better soil and climate in Southern California compared to Philly to grow some really good roots for perhaps his greatest love---not golf architecture---but world-class rose breeding.

The guy was pretty much a multi-interest renaissance type man. I wonder what those who knew him would say his greatest interest was because he was some kind of WW1 flier and leader, that's for sure---eg hence Capt. Thomas. But some say he breed some of the best hybrid roses extant and he also wrote a seminal book on California deep-sea fishing.

I know it may tick off some of his iconizers and super fans but I heard he had another great interest----eg gals, women, bimbos or whatever one might want to call them. Yep, and unfortunately he named a few too many of his hybrid roses after his girlfriends and when he passed and when his wife found out about that she was not a happy gardener at all and had a lot of them just ripped and rooted out and tossed. Actually, it might've been more dire than even that---eg she might've found out about the girlfriends before he died and gave him the choice of giving them all up or dying and like any sensible and cultured gentleman like George Thomas Jr was, he took the honorable option and just died!

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 08:12:22 PM by TEPaul »

Mike Sweeney

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #51 on: December 27, 2010, 08:23:27 PM »
"* George Thomas thumbed his nose at his Philadelphia roots and created some masterpieces in California."


Mike Sweeney:

The guy was pretty much a multi-interest renaissance type man. I wonder what those who knew him would say his greatest interest was because he was some kind of WW1 flier and leader, that's for sure---eg hence Capt. Thomas. But some say he breed some of the best hybrid roses extant and he also wrote a seminal book on California deep-sea fishing.


"* George Thomas thumbed his nose at his Philadelphia roots and created some masterpieces in California."


Mike Sweeney:

The guy was pretty much a multi-interest renaissance type man. I wonder what those who knew him would say his greatest interest was because he was some kind of WW1 flier and leader, that's for sure---eg hence Capt. Thomas. But some say he breed some of the best hybrid roses extant and he also wrote a seminal book on California deep-sea fishing.


Tom,

As I spent 6 summers of my life fishing in the Baltimore and Wilmington Canyons and I am a Golfer (see my other post) I really would love to read any information/book/journal you have on this. I have always viewed California "deep sea fishing" as somewhat of a second class citizen and admit that I have never tried to get on a charter out of California as a result of this bias. Baja California is a different story and it is simply a difference of water temperature.

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #52 on: December 27, 2010, 08:33:07 PM »


The other day out of boredom I interrupted channel changing to watch a few minutes of the UGA Lady Bulldogs v. Rutgers. I remeber the score was around 36-23 UGA ahead. After a minute or so I moved on, and came back about 15 minutes later. Score UGA up 37-23

Did you miss half time?

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #53 on: December 27, 2010, 10:59:32 PM »
Oakmont
Shinnecock Hills
Myopia
Merion
Pine Valley
The Country Club

That is a pretty impressive list so far.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 11:02:09 PM by Tom MacWood »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #54 on: December 27, 2010, 11:08:37 PM »
You forgot the Creek, Seminole, Piping Rock, and any other course TEPaul used to play as a child.    

Also, don't you think from the Shinnecock thread that any course where Flynn ever did anything ought to be on the list. 
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2010, 03:24:22 AM »
Mr Moriarty the first mention I can see of Wayne is you mentioning a private IM between you and Mr Paul. These entire 5 grown men acting like small children threads should be confined to IMs where you can all bicker to your hearts content.

Mr Sweeney you quote historical figures who achieved something in golf. This is about people who disrespect each other with a keyboard and mouse they are hardly achievers in the field of golf.
Cave Nil Vino

TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2010, 07:44:35 AM »
As for those lists of clubs associated with me and the Pissboy which seems to be growing-----I'm overwhelmed by it. All I can say is "Ah Shucks." Our experiences tell us noone needs to tread all that lightly at them even though most of them do appreciate it if you change your shoes in their lockerrooms and not their parking lots.

JC Jones

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2010, 07:55:39 AM »

* George Thomas thumbed his nose at his Philadelphia roots


Who knew you and George Thomas had so much in common..... ;D
I get it, you are mad at the world because you are an adult caddie and few people take you seriously.

Excellent spellers usually lack any vision or common sense.

I know plenty of courses that are in the red, and they are killing it.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2010, 09:06:00 AM »
I know your post was about Shinnecock. But what you, Tom Macwood, Cirba, TEPaul, Wayne, etc..., etc..., don't realize is that one side isn't winning, in fact, both sides are loosing. Even if your first post on Shinnecock was great, it has no credibility when motives are questionable.

What on Earth is questionable about my motives in those posts?   They were about Shinnecock in 1891 for God sakes!


How can anyone on this site outside of this fight can honestly trust any one of your opinions on a club history? In trying to become the respective absolute individual authority on any one club you've all made yourselves obsolete.
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2010, 09:11:30 AM »


Wait a second...that's not "Two Girls, One Cup", is it??? ;) :) :D
H.P.S.

PCCraig

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2010, 09:16:26 AM »
Oakmont
Shinnecock Hills
Myopia
Merion
Pine Valley
The Country Club

That is a pretty impressive list so far.

The Country Club? ? ?
H.P.S.

Mac Plumart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2010, 09:19:46 AM »
Pat Craig...

"In trying to become the respective absolute individual authority on any one club you've all made yourselves obsolete."

I think you make an excellent point.  


This is what I was refering to when I said the following on this thread...

http://golfclubatlas.com/forum/index.php/topic,46835.0.html

Tom P.

I think you are touching on a VERY important topic.  There is a group of you guys on this site that take historical fact finding extremely seriously.  For this reason, I think it is vital that this site and/or the group of the historical fact finders establish a standard operating procedure for documenting the findings.  This SOP needs to be in lock step with the accepted SOP of bona fide historians.  Academics, PhD's, and the like need to be contacted and this process needs to be hashed out.  There is so much potential for great findings regarding your guys work, but without a legitimate and universally accepted process...I fear a lot of it will be wasted.


Frankly, this whole mess is a real shame.
Sportsman/Adventure loving golfer.

Eric Smith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2010, 09:23:14 AM »
Mac,

Mike Young utilizes a pretty good SOP too you know...


Mike Sweeney

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2010, 09:52:47 AM »

Mr Sweeney you quote historical figures who achieved something in golf. This is about people who disrespect each other with a keyboard and mouse they are hardly achievers in the field of golf.


Mark,

I look at these things differently. I think these debates are a reflection of what is going on in society in the digital age. Moriarity and MacWood are the Julian Asange(s) of Golf Club Atlas. If Ran chases them away, they will simply show up in other places or start their own Blog or website.

I type this in the middle of Disneyworld and there are rumors here that the Palm and Magnolia golf courses will be plowed under in the next upswing as Disney can make more money from another resort style hotel. Neither of these courses are popular here on GCA, but they are centrally located, they are always busy (when I am here) and I would assume profitable based on the fees they charge compared to courses "off property". This is a reflection of what happened historically to many courses in cities and dense population areas.

Tom Paul considers himself the guardian of at least some of these historic clubs and their members. Spiritually, I support him as I love history, and old historic club history. However, I think he has a finger in the dyke as the information age moves on.

The fact that a few toes get stepped on is just part of the process as golf, its courses and clubs and the business of golf find a new equilibrium. The moderators of this site have chosen to let the debates continue and we all get to choose whether we participate, watch or move on.

Cheers.

Bruce Katona

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2010, 10:08:11 AM »
Heck: I enjoy TEP's stories...they're great.

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2010, 10:10:48 AM »
I like his stories too.

Mike_Young

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2010, 10:21:13 AM »
Well..have you seen this today?
Another historical screw up.....hmmmm....



A patriot other than Tom Brady was making news last week. Dec. 18 marked the 150th anniversary of the publication of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow's great poem "Paul Revere's Ride," and both The Wall Street Journal and The New York Times weighed in on Revere's place, and the poem's place, in history.

John J. Miller, in the Journal, relates how Longfellow's poem transformed Revere from a footnote in history to a hero of the American Revolution. You surely remember the poem's opening lines, its rhythms like a horse's hoof beats:

Listen, my, children, and you shall hear
Of the midnight ride of Paul Revere

And the line "One, if by land, and two, if by sea" is burned into the American consciousness.

Well, as is often the case with historical literature, it turns out that Longfellow sacrificed historical accuracy for effect. The Journal interviewed David Hackett Fischer of Brandeis University, who lambasted Longfellow as "grossly, systematically, and deliberately inaccurate." And he's right. In reality, Revere didn't succeed in sounding much alarm. He was rowed across the Charles River by two other (apparently more hard-working) men, failed to see a signal lantern, and was promptly apprehended by a British patrol.

Revere went on to fight for American independence, but he was accused of cowardice by an American general named Peleg Wadsworth, the maternal grandfather, if you can believe it, of Henry Wadsworth Longfellow. As the Journal points out, Peleg surely would not have been pleased with his grandson's rewriting of history.

Also on Dec. 18, Jill Lepore wrote a terrific op-ed piece on "Paul Revere's Ride" for The New York Times, shining light on some forgotten history behind the poem. Lepore notes that Longfellow was a passionate abolitionist. Longfellow went so far as to publish a book entitled "Poems on Slavery," and used proceeds from his poetry to buy freedom for slaves. Lepore argues that "Paul Revere's Ride," written on the brink of secession and civil war, is more a call to arms against contemporary injustices than an attempt to commemorate a historic moment. When it appeared in The Atlantic, it was read as a rallying cry for the Union. Note how the poem ends with a call to action.

So through the night rode Paul Revere;
And so through the night went his cry of alarm
To every Middlesex village and farm, --
A cry of defiance and not of fear,
A voice in the darkness, a knock at the door,
And a word that shall echo forevermore!
For, borne on the night-wind of the Past,
Through all our history, to the last,
In the hour of darkness and peril and need,
The people will waken and listen to hear
The hurrying hoof-beat of that steed,
And the midnight-message of Paul Revere.

The British weren't coming in 1861, but war certainly was. And Longfellow, it appears, was anxious to fight it.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2010, 10:31:04 AM »

"Wow, being compared to a potential rapists, liar and stealer. There has to be a better choice Mike!!"


Agreed, I don't think questioning the club history at Myopia is comparable to releasing classified info that could result in loss of life, though its posssible I've underestimated the importance of the Squire & Co.

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2010, 10:32:49 AM »


Wait a second...that's not "Two Girls, One Cup", is it??? ;) :) :D

I didn't think anyone but a select few on here would appreciate a link to Two Girls, One Cup....so I posted a picture of Two Girls, One Ball instead.  

One could also interpret the picture as children fighting over a ball....or one kid taking their ball and going home....and all interpretaions would be apt characterizations of this mess of a thread which I can't stop reading.

TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2010, 10:59:54 AM »
"Tom P.

I think you are touching on a VERY important topic.  There is a group of you guys on this site that take historical fact finding extremely seriously.  For this reason, I think it is vital that this site and/or the group of the historical fact finders establish a standard operating procedure for documenting the findings.  This SOP needs to be in lock step with the accepted SOP of bona fide historians.  Academics, PhD's, and the like need to be contacted and this process needs to be hashed out.  There is so much potential for great findings regarding your guys work, but without a legitimate and universally accepted process...I fear a lot of it will be wasted."



Mac P:

I believe you're very right about that and I have for some years now!



HOWEVER.....


Eric Smith:

I like your photograph in #64 very much and of course I am willing to collaborate with others in that manner (as they are doing in that photo)----BUT---I categorically refuse to hold Tom MacWood's and David Moriarty's hands. Collaboration is one thing but THAT would be going much too far!!! Perhaps those two could be seated nearby at a Child's Table and just listen to the adults for a few years so that they might learn something important about clubs and such and thus...

« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 11:07:11 AM by TEPaul »

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2010, 01:13:08 PM »
-BUT---I categorically refuse to hold Tom MacWood's and David Moriarty's hands. Collaboration is one thing but THAT would be going much too far!!! Perhaps those two could be seated nearby at a Child's Table and just listen to the adults for a few years so that they might learn something important about clubs and such and thus...



And one wonders why Moriarty gets so offended when TEPaul chastises Dave for not working with him first on Shinnecock. 

I think they need to save an extra seat at the Child's Table.

This all is a remarkable study in the inability of people to perceive themselves once they get overly emotional.  I think some can cease worrying about damages to their reputations from outside sources.  Plenty of self-inflicted wounds to go around.

TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2010, 01:18:27 PM »
Kevin:

If you and David Moriarty get as worked up as it seems you did over that remark of mine you quoted, all I can say is the two of you really are pretty low on the old "Sense of Humor Meter."  ;)

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #72 on: December 28, 2010, 02:04:43 PM »
Kevin:

If you and David Moriarty get as worked up as it seems you did over that remark of mine you quoted, all I can say is the two of you really are pretty low on the old "Sense of Humor Meter."  ;)

Well, I suppose if I lived in a vacuum and was blissfully ignorant of its context among multiple other comments - you may be right.  Will you be breaking out the "where's your sense of humor" defense in regards to the "disbarment" comments as well?

Sorry Tom, but from an outside observer with no "dog in the fight" - I stand by my "self-inflicted wounds" comment.

I've heard many good things about you and enjoyed our previous extended interactions, but the behaviors on these threads belie that.

TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2010, 08:31:07 AM »
"........but the behaviors on these threads belie that."


Kevin:

Yes I certainly agree with you on that. I see absolutely no productive reason or purpose for this particular thread. I do not think it should've been begun and I feel the whole thread should be deleted.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2010, 10:07:31 AM »
"........but the behaviors on these threads belie that."


Kevin:

Yes I certainly agree with you on that. I see absolutely no productive reason or purpose for this particular thread. I do not think it should've been begun and I feel the whole thread should be deleted.

I agree that the specific aim of the thread (at you) was not productive, but many of the things added in the comments needed to be heard.

I hope an ancillary benefit can be derived if it illustrates that many observers (without a "dog in the fight") are saddened by the personal sniping and lost opportunity for civil discussion.


I was heartened by Pat Mucci's post over in the Shinnecock thread, in that it provided a rational discussion of the limitations in research when internal documents are either:
-  Not pursued / obtained by the researcher, or
-  Not openly distributed by the subject club

I just think we need to find some rational ground between the extreme viewpoints of:
A)  The Club must be hiding something
B)   Without access, any research must be dismissed as wreckless

Certainly, collaboration would be the ideal, but I think both "sides" know that it is not always available. 

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