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J_ Crisham

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2010, 02:27:11 PM »
This is simply inflammatory in nature- why this thread has been posted is pointless. You guys just need to agree to disagree and move on. As Bob stated so much for the season of good cheer. >:(

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2010, 02:36:38 PM »
George,  there aren't two "sides" here.   It is insulting to me and to Tom MacWood for you to equate what we have done to what TEPaul had done.
______________________________________

Kevin,  

While you and others are obviously better men than me, I hit back when hit. And I have trouble treating with respect those who show me none and have behaved in a manner that deserves no respect.

While I know your posts are well meaning, perhaps instead of lecturing me about how I must endlessly take shots and never respond, perhaps you and others should consider what the core problem really is here, and why this history keeps repeating itself.

Read the Shinnecock thread.  Is there ever any excuse to treat my posts on Shinnecock like TEPaul and his lapdog have treated them?  

If not, then why don't you speak up as to that?
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 02:39:23 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2010, 02:41:04 PM »
On second thought, Kevin and Sean are correct.   

TEPaul's behavior is no excuse for mine.   
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 02:48:53 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Tom MacWood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2010, 03:08:39 PM »
I think the best thing to do in TEP's case is to ignore him or humor him, though that is sometimes easier said than done. That will be my new year's resolution.

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2010, 03:12:24 PM »
On second thought, Kevin and Sean are correct.   

TEPaul's behavior is no excuse for mine.   

David - good second thought.

In response to your question "why don't we speak up" - my personal answer is that, by the time I get to the threads, both sides have usually devolved so that it really is useless to point out either's part in the problem.  Also, I think Sean & I did speak up some time around page 5 of the August fiasco.  By the time I returned from attending the PGA, the thread was up to page 14 of back & forth, unproductive sniping.

As for being a "better man" and "lecturing" you - those aren't completely true statements.  I recognize this pattern because I used to have a similar relationship with another poster on a Sabres Fan Board.  I know how strong the urge is to reply to every personal attack and not allow the "last word."  I also know how easy it was to write things I wasn't proud of in hindsight.  I disengaged from that poster's personal attacks and within weeks most other people were stepping in and asking him to "grow up."

I wasn't attempting to "lecture" you - I was hoping you'd accentuate your positive contributions and try to avoid (or at least temper) some of the negative interactions that diminish your intended goals.

Reading others' responses, I think they all wish TEPaul would do the same.

Ronald Montesano

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #30 on: December 27, 2010, 03:21:45 PM »
David,

I will say that, from personal experience, Kevin doesn't know how to lecture anyone.  I've witnessed him being lectured and, rather than retaliate, smile and move on to the next shot.

I admire the passion with which both "sides" defend their arguments.  I much prefer virtual arguments to actual fisticuffs.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2010, 09:26:52 AM by Ronald Tricks O'Hooligan Montesano »
Coming in 2024
~Elmira Country Club
~Soaring Eagles
~Bonavista
~Indian Hills
~Maybe some more!!

George Pazin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #31 on: December 27, 2010, 03:25:31 PM »
George,  there aren't two "sides" here.   It is insulting to me and to Tom MacWood for you to equate what we have done to what TEPaul had done.

I did nothing of the sort.

Nice posts, Kev and Ron.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #32 on: December 27, 2010, 03:29:24 PM »
Kevin,  I think you may have misunderstood my post.  While his behavior is no excuse for mine, mine is in no way comparable to his.  For you and others to equate what he does regularly on here to anything i have ever done is extremely insulting to me.

What I have written about TEPaul may be harsh and even rude, but it is all accurate.  And well documented.  The same cannot be said of this notion that my fighting back is comparable to what he has done.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Sean_A

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #33 on: December 27, 2010, 04:03:34 PM »
Sean,

Sound advice but easier said than done.   Would you just turn the other cheek if these guys were constantly misrepresenting and disparaging you, your motives, and your ideas?   Whether you posted or not?   Would you let stand outright lies about you and your posts?  

In the past I have disengaged, taking long breaks from posting of many months (and years) at a time.  And when I have, these two "gentleman" continue with their misrepresentations and attempts at character assassination, despite my absence.   And unfortunately their posts influence what people believe about the histories of these clubs.  

It may be a personal failing on my part, but I have trouble ceding the history of golf course architecture to incompetent zealots who use this forum advance their own personal agendas.   Plus, this is supposed to be a place for the open and frank discussion of golf course architecture.  There should be no place for the kind of garbage they pulled with my piece on Shinnecock.    I shouldn't have to run away with my tail between my legs just because Ran and other participants are unwilling to stand up to the resident bully and his loyal lapdog.    

Perhaps it would be more pleasant for me and others if I would cower when they act up, but it is not in my nature.

David

Yes, it is hard and dare I say much harder for you than me to walk away because I suspect you care about this subject matter more than I do.  In the end though, its about dropping the pride and desire to get the last word in.  I walk away from a certain poster on this site even though I know he will leave a parting shot that is completely unreasonable.  But, so what?  Its not like I have to rely on him for anything or seek his approval.  He is just a bloke out there doing his thing.  You could treat these folks in the same manner - just shut down as soon as things turn remotely sour.   

Tommy Mac

I was referring to TomP and Mike C writing IMO pieces.  Lord knows you have done your share and I am thankful for those contributions.  Yes, I agree that more work needs to be done to smooth out the pieces since the switchover.  Several pieces are a mess adn need re-editing.

Ciao
New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield, Alnmouth, Camden, Palmetto Bluff Crossroads Course, Colleton River Dye Course  & Old Barnwell

Kevin Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #34 on: December 27, 2010, 04:18:15 PM »
Kevin,  I think you may have misunderstood my post.  While his behavior is no excuse for mine, mine is in no way comparable to his.  For you and others to equate what he does regularly on here to anything i have ever done is extremely insulting to me.

What I have written about TEPaul may be harsh and even rude, but it is all accurate.  And well documented.  The same cannot be said of this notion that my fighting back is comparable to what he has done.

David,

I think you are missing my point.  I'm not trying to equate your behaviors and there's no need for you to try and convince people "but his behavior is worse."  We all are able to observe what happened and what was said - we can all make our own conclusions without needing to state them publicly so that one side can claim some type of "public opinion victory."  Which is exactly the point - no one here wants to discuss "behaviors" (unless it's Tiger's   ;)  ).  You may be absolutely correct about Tom's behavior, but I think the message from most people here is "we'd rather talk about the research" and eliminate the need to judge behavioral assertions.

If you truly believe what you said about "his behavior is no excuse for mine", then your second paragraph would have ended with "What I have written about TEPaul may be harsh and even rude."  

No "but", no delegation of responsibility, no need to connect his behavior with yours in any way - just simply taking responsibility for your part (without having to assign a percentage to it).

Trust me, if TEPaul isn't willing to do the same (without buts, disclaimers, etc.), you won't need to point it out.


Look at it this way.  I'm saying "David, please focus on your positive contributions and cut the personal crap (of which you are XX% responsible for).  TEPaul, please focus on your positive contributions and cut the personal crap (of which you are XX% responsible for)."  

If you are obsessing about the XX% in those sentences, you are missing the point.


JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #35 on: December 27, 2010, 04:23:47 PM »
These threads are like watching Two Girls, One Cup.

Only even more painful.

Damn me for clicking on them.

Chris Buie

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2010, 04:56:56 PM »
I don't suppose any of you chaps are familiar with the fable of Br'er Rabbit and the Tar Baby?

Br'er Rabbit's fiendish nemesis Br'er Fox constructs what appears to be a child out of tar and turpentine.  Br'er Rabbit happens by (as Br'er Fox knew he would) and says hello to the "child".  When the child doesn't respond Br'er Rabbit becomes offended and smacks him - but only gets himself stuck.  The more he fights the more stuck he gets.

« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 04:59:08 PM by Chris Buie »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2010, 05:13:11 PM »
Kevin, I think I got your point, but frankly I don't believe it when you say that most here here "would rather talk about the research."   If that were remotely true, then most people here would be as infuriated as am about what he did to the Shinnecock thread and what he does to every other interesting thread in which TomM or I choose to participate.  

TEPaul makes it impossible to reasonably discuss research.   He makes it impossible to present research and have it be recieved in a reasonable manner, and he makes it impossible to have any sort of intelligent discussion about it whatsoever.  This is true regardless of my behavior, it goes on even when I haven't posted in months.  

You seem not to have noticed that TEPaul is on a mission, which he has readily admitted on many occasions.  TEPaul is here to shut me up; to stop the conversation so that TEPaul can go back to dictating the history of these clubs to you and everyone else.

That is the point of this thread as I understand it:     TEPaul and Wayne have let it be known that there are a growing list of courses that are strictly off limits for reasonable discussion on this website.     He actually informed me that I should have contacted him and Wayne before I posted about Shinnecock!   As if he was some sort of godfather of golf history or something.  

And your response and the response of others is that I should be the better man and take the high road?   True.  I should.   NOW LETS RETURN TO THE REAL UNDERLYING PROBLEM HERE, AND THE TOPIC OF THE THREAD. 

Perhaps you and others should man up and speak up and put a stop to this nonsense of tearing down peoples work for no reason.  No one owns these histories, and TEPaul needs to quit acting as if he and Wayne do.   Because if, as you say, you are only interested in discussing the research, then that is the only way it will happen.  

 

If you truly believe what you said about "his behavior is no excuse for mine", then your second paragraph would have ended with "What I have written about TEPaul may be harsh and even rude."  

No "but", no delegation of responsibility, no need to connect his behavior with yours in any way - just simply taking responsibility for your part (without having to assign a percentage to it).

I do truly believe that I am responsible for my own behavior and have delegated no responsibility.  Like my behavior is my responsibility, his is his responsibility, and something need be done about his behavior for the good of the website.  


Quote
Look at it this way.  I'm saying "David, please focus on your positive contributions and cut the personal crap (of which you are XX% responsible for).  TEPaul, please focus on your positive contributions and cut the personal crap (of which you are XX% responsible for)."  

And what I am saying is that this entirely misses the point of this thread.  It is not a matter of "personal crap" with TEPaul.  His actions are of an entirely different nature.   To name just a few things, he is purposefully and intentionally trying to make it impossible for some of us to contribute positively to the website, and has claimed certain courses as his own, and is demanding that some of us to come to him before we even post.

In short, if he doesn't approve, he tries to shut down the conversation, and has done so again and again.  FOR GOING ON A DECADE!  If you are truly interested in discussing the research then this ought to be just as offensive to you as it is to me.   But it is not.  You are more concerned with whether I describe Mike Cirba as a lap dog when he behaves like one.  

______________________________________

I hope for your sakes that none of you ever cross TEPaul, because if you do then you may get a taste of what it is like to have your hard work repeatedly shit on for no justifiable reason.  Like what just happened to my Shinnecock posts.  But if this does happen to you, I can assure you that I will be the first to stand up to him and tell him he is out of line and that this sort of behavior will not be tolerated.  And I can further assure you that I will not patronizingly lecture you if you choose to defend yourself against such nonsense.    
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 05:16:37 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2010, 05:32:29 PM »

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #39 on: December 27, 2010, 05:40:59 PM »
Yes, Ryan, I think we go the point from your first post.  But thanks for the photo nonetheless.

Meanwhile there is this issue of a poster and past poster who have claimed ownership of a growing number of club histories, and have even insisted that other posters contact them before posting about the histories of those clubs.

I don't really think your cute allusions to girls fighting quite cover that.    
_______________________________________________________

An open question to anyone interested:

Would you be comfortable with TEPaul dictating to you what you can and cannot post about?    If not, then why do you accept him doing this to me or anyone else?  
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 05:44:12 PM by DMoriarty »
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Mark Chaplin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2010, 05:46:22 PM »
Tom - I do not read the posts you refer to as they appear to all end up the same way with 5 or 6 people arguing about things that can never be proven so the arguments go on and on with no chance of finding a "winner" and decent research gets belittled.

Why is Wayne Morrison being dragged into the argument? Wayne no longer posts, who can blame him, so he shouldn't be dragged into this debate.  
Cave Nil Vino

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2010, 05:52:48 PM »
David Cronan.  Glad you thought to chime in on something you refuse to give any thought.  And I am glad that TEPaul's outrageous behavior keeps you entertained.  After all that is why we are all here, isn't it?  To be entertained by the outrageous behavior of some at the expense of others.   What a laugher.  
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

John_Cullum

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2010, 05:58:26 PM »


The other day out of boredom I interrupted channel changing to watch a few minutes of the UGA Lady Bulldogs v. Rutgers. I remeber the score was around 36-23 UGA ahead. After a minute or so I moved on, and came back about 15 minutes later. Score UGA up 37-23
"We finally beat Medicare. "

JR Potts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2010, 06:10:39 PM »

I don't really think your cute allusions to girls fighting quite cover that.    
_______________________________________________________

An open question to anyone interested:

Would you be comfortable with TEPaul dictating to you what you can and cannot post about?    If not, then why do you accept him doing this to me or anyone else?  

You're right, I didn't need to post the picture of the girls fighting.   Your incessant posts are making the issue quite clear.

But, to answer your question, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if TEPaul demanded that I contact him before posting because I wouldn't give it a second thought.  I would post what I wanted, when I wanted (of course subject to Ran and Ben’s ultimate discretion).  If he were deleting threads, I would be annoyed but he's not doing that.  And I'm not sure he is even demanding that you contact him and gain approval.  And if he is, so what?

I don't have a dog in this fight and only half-read this crap - but, that said, objectively speaking, I can assure you that after reading your last few posts, err, rants, any reasonable person would find you to be totally off your rocker bat-shit-crazy.  Really, totally and completely nuts.

Why put forth the effort?

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2010, 06:28:51 PM »
Ryan,  thanks for offering your opinion and for the insults.   I am never sure what motivates people who admittedly don't even know what is ongoing to offer their opinion anyway, but thanks nonetheless. I'll take it for what it is worth.

As to your question:  why put forth the effort?  it is a good one and one I have been seriously considering myself.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

DMoriarty

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #45 on: December 27, 2010, 06:35:37 PM »
Mark Chaplin,

You'll have to ask TEPaul why he dragged Wayne into the discussion.
Golf history can be quite interesting if you just let your favorite legends go and allow the truth to take you where it will.
--Tom MacWood (1958-2012)

Melvyn Morrow

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #46 on: December 27, 2010, 06:52:30 PM »

Gentlemen – IF I can you Gentlemen, we have just had a cull and lost 300 Members. Has it not sunk in yet or are some seeking to follow those who have been asked to leave.

Who is right, who can claim to be First Among Equals, who thinks this type of behaviour will enhance the sites endeavours when it comes to golf and GCA.

AS the New Year is nearly upon us would it not be an ideal opportunity to try and improve our behaviour for the sake of the site.

Gentlemen, this is a internet blog site concentrating upon golf course architecture. We each have the right to have opinions and voice said opinions. This is not a democracy, but we are given remarkable freedom to state our beliefs, because in general it has taken the debate forward. Our own golfing knowledge over the last 5 years has also grown in leaps and bounds.

WE weaken our cause by acting in this manner. Am I lone voice here or do others wish to see a more harmonious interactions.

Melvyn

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #47 on: December 27, 2010, 07:03:31 PM »
Boy, oh boy, Melvyn.  That was well said.

TEPaul

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #48 on: December 27, 2010, 07:15:12 PM »
"But, to answer your question, it wouldn't bother me in the slightest if TEPaul demanded that I contact him before posting because I wouldn't give it a second thought.  I would post what I wanted, when I wanted...."


Ryan Potts:

Say what??

You would do WHAT???

Look, SKIBO, if you EVER even think about posting on this website without contacting me for permission first, you'll danged tootin' sure be looking over your shoulder for the rest of your natural born days. Don't even think about it!!!

Mike Sweeney

Re: Clubs Associated with TEP & Wayne, tread lightly
« Reply #49 on: December 27, 2010, 07:19:47 PM »



WE weaken our cause by acting in this manner. Am I lone voice here or do others wish to see a more harmonious interactions.

Melvyn


Delicate balance, but golf is full of historical figures who have thumbed their noses at the establishment:

* CB Macdonald at least in part started National Golf Links of America to stick it to Shinnecock.
* Lowell Schulman started Atlantic GC because he was at least in part frustrated with discrimination, same with Noyac GC founder.
* Tom Paul's club Gulph Mills was partially started to combat the politics of getting a tee time at Merion.
* Pine Valley in South Jersey ??!! No respectable Philadelphian would ever cross the Delaware River to play golf!
* George Thomas thumbed his nose at his Philadelphia roots and created some masterpieces in California

On and on, spite (as seen on a Seinfeld episode or two) is a powerful thing Roger oops I mean Melvin.  ;)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2010, 07:30:43 PM by Mike Sweeney »

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